Frasers Group (nee Sports Direct) raises stake in Hornby to 9%

[The Meerkat]

On 24/02/2024 at 10:44, darrel said:

After what he did at Newcastle and Rangers I'm not sure this is good news. 

luckily Rangers got rid of him cant remember how long it took sure it wasn't long,  Newcastle was hell of lot longer

[G-BOAF]

3 minutes ago, The Meerkat said:

luckily Rangers got rid of him cant remember how long it took sure it wasn't long,  Newcastle was hell of lot longer

 

So time to start writing to him complaining about the shape of Gresley carriages and the inability to change the lamp code on the forthcoming Black 5, and he will soon discover a whole new customer/supporter base who are like nothing ever faced before :-p

 

the reality is that the (serious) side of the hobby could manage quite well without Hornby, with the strength of other established and emerging manufacturers. Looking at how Hattons closure has been management, if Hornby disappeared, the good tooling would doubtless be snapped up and improved by other players.

[The Meerkat]

12 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

 

So time to start writing to him complaining about the shape of Gresley carriages and the inability to change the lamp code on the forthcoming Black 5, and he will soon discover a whole new customer/supporter base who are like nothing ever faced before :-p

 

the reality is that the (serious) side of the hobby could manage quite well without Hornby, with the strength of other established and emerging manufacturers. Looking at how Hattons closure has been management, if Hornby disappeared, the good tooling would doubtless be snapped up and improved by other players.

i 100& agree that if Hornby went the hobby would manage quite well without them  

 

but he bad news with everything he touches or owns

[Fireline]

10 minutes ago, The Meerkat said:

i 100& agree that if Hornby went the hobby would manage quite well without them  

 

The ultra serious, rivet counting, end of the hobby might carry on. However, the "Grandad buys granchild a train set, and they get into modelling" end of the hobby would seriously suffer. How many times do we hear things like train sets referred to as a "Hornby" by those who aren't in the know? Funnily enough, it's sales of bread and butter train sets that allow companies like Hornby to do the better stuff. 

 

In any event, I am reminded of a certain Monty Python moment on this thread. You're all bringing out the corpse when it's loudly protesting that it's not dead yet.

[The Meerkat]

9 minutes ago, Fireline said:

 

 

In any event, I am reminded of a certain Monty Python moment on this thread. You're all bringing out the corpse when it's loudly protesting that it's not dead yet.

 

i agree Hornby are far from dead, far from it,  i do believe if it does go belly up, some one hopefully not Ashley would buy it up

[1andrew1]

1 hour ago, The Meerkat said:

i 100& agree that if Hornby went the hobby would manage quite well without them  

 

but he bad news with everything he touches or owns

Mike Ashley has stepped back from managing Frasers but he's the company's biggest investor. 

 

Whilst he sounds a pain to be in charge of a football club, Frasers has rescued many high street businesses that might have closed if he hadn't acquired them eg Sofa.com, Game, Gieves & Hawkes and Evans.

[Clearwater]

16 hours ago, 1andrew1 said:

Mike Ashley has stepped back from managing Frasers but he's the company's biggest investor. 

 

Whilst he sounds a pain to be in charge of a football club, Frasers has rescued many high street businesses that might have closed if he hadn't acquired them eg Sofa.com, Game, Gieves & Hawkes and Evans.

 

You don't make the money he's made by accident.

 

Of those businesses, I'd argue there's a commonality of either price sensitive nature, brand name recognition and the need for an efficient and effective distribution model. 

[Sjcm]

On 04/03/2024 at 15:06, Fireline said:

The ultra serious, rivet counting, end of the hobby might carry on. However, the "Grandad buys granchild a train set, and they get into modelling" end of the hobby would seriously suffer. How many times do we hear things like train sets referred to as a "Hornby" by those who aren't in the know? Funnily enough, it's sales of bread and butter train sets that allow companies like Hornby to do the better stuff. 

 

In any event, I am reminded of a certain Monty Python moment on this thread. You're all bringing out the corpse when it's loudly protesting that it's not dead yet.

Do Hornby even cater for that market anymore?  Not so much the toy train market but the entry level young adult market or those older returning to the hobby not looking to spend thousands. All I see at the low end is Beatles tat and generic 0-4-0 toy shunters or you can pay 80 quid for a jinty😂 The railroad plus range seem reasonable, but  it's all diesels and if you wanted  say a BR era medium sized steam loco and 3 mk 1's , it would cost you the best part of 350 pounds. There is no entry level train set  unless you want the mallard at 250 pounds which I suppose is decent value.

 

It's always dangerous to watch eBay for trends as it can change month to month but at the moment, mid sized nothing special 40+ year old locos are going for 30+ pounds on ebay, obviously to be used and the prices are rising fast so the demand is there. If you don't care about super detailed DCC stuff,  a budget of 350 pounds gets you 5 locos, a job lot of wagons, coaches and track on ebay, while the other guy has his train and 3 coaches for a year for the same money if he's not after DCC (May have to lose a couple of coaches if he is). Personally I think Hornby rely on the collectors and purist modellers. Those that just want a train set moved on a long time ago I think.

[St Enodoc]

On 24/02/2024 at 20:15, Mike Bellamy said:

 

Jenners is undergoing a major renovation and most of the building is to become a luxury hotel - owned by a Danish billionaire. Although the shop was part of the original House of Fraser group long before Ashley took over, the building was actually sold back in 2005.  Detailed BBC report in link below

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-68153251

.

Not quite. In 2005 the Jenners business (not the building) was sold to House of Fraser by the Douglas-Miller family, who continued to own the lease on the building until 2017. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenners.

[Mike Bellamy]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Not quite. In 2005 the Jenners business (not the building) was sold to House of Fraser by the Douglas-Miller family, who continued to own the lease on the building until 2017. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenners.

 

Thanks - I blame the BBC as it's obvious that they got the info from Wikipedia and seem to have missed the fact that the private investor (Moorcroft Capital) was actually owned by another of the Douglas-Miller family and so still a descendant of Charles Jenner . . . . . . . 

 

BBC

The new building opened in 1895 and was extended in 1903. Further extensions were added in the 1950s and 1960s.

The building was sold to private investors in 2005 after House of Fraser bought the Jenners brand and property.

It was then bought by Anders Holch Povlsen in 2017 for a reported £53m.

 

WIKIPEDIA

The lease of the building remained with the Jenners holding company JPSE Ltd, owned by the Douglas-Miller family. In August 2005 it was sold to Moorcroft Capital Management, owned by Jenners' former chief executive Robbie Douglas-Miller. In 2017 the building was bought by Danish billionaire fashion retailer and landowner in Scotland Anders Holch Povlsen, reportedly for £53 million.

.

[ruggedpeak]

A recent discussion on the Fraser business model:

 

https://www.cityam.com/frasers-group-what-mike-ashleys-retail-empires-endgame-could-be-after-boohoo-asos-currys-ao-and-n-brown-investments/

 

Noting that Frasers bough Matchesfashion a few months ago and it is now in administration:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/mar/08/luxury-clothing-brand-matchesfashion-to-enter-administration

[1andrew1]

Likely a coincidence, but the front web page for Corgi Premiums now looks like this. Sofa.com is a Frasers brand. 

 

 

 

Edited March 10 by 1andrew1

[G-BOAF]

15 hours ago, 1andrew1 said:

Likely a coincidence, but the front web page for Corgi Premiums now looks like this. Sofa.com is a Frasers brand. 

 

 

 

funny the lorry tooling looks exactly like a Jordan's cereal lorry I got years ago (token on the back of packet) which I'm almost certain was made by Promotors models (an Oxford Diecast brand). Despite still being quite young, I remember being rather disappointed at the 'generic' nature of the lorry not really capturing any particular prototype make or type.

Edited March 11 by G-BOAF

[Ravenser]

On 06/03/2024 at 09:00, Sjcm said:

Do Hornby even cater for that market anymore?  Not so much the toy train market but the entry level young adult market or those older returning to the hobby not looking to spend thousands. All I see at the low end is Beatles tat and generic 0-4-0 toy shunters or you can pay 80 quid for a jinty😂 The railroad plus range seem reasonable, but  it's all diesels and if you wanted  say a BR era medium sized steam loco and 3 mk 1's , it would cost you the best part of 350 pounds. There is no entry level train set  unless you want the mallard at 250 pounds which I suppose is decent value.

 

It's always dangerous to watch eBay for trends as it can change month to month but at the moment, mid sized nothing special 40+ year old locos are going for 30+ pounds on ebay, obviously to be used and the prices are rising fast so the demand is there. If you don't care about super detailed DCC stuff,  a budget of 350 pounds gets you 5 locos, a job lot of wagons, coaches and track on ebay, while the other guy has his train and 3 coaches for a year for the same money if he's not after DCC (May have to lose a couple of coaches if he is). Personally I think Hornby rely on the collectors and purist modellers. Those that just want a train set moved on a long time ago I think.

 

Nobody other than Hornby caters for that sector. The fact that Railroad keeps running and running , the fact that all those Lima models that "everyone" groaned loadly when they brought back 20 years ago - "why do they bother??🙄" - keep selling and have done for 20 years tells a story.

 

And the whole TT120 venture is aimed squarely at that market. £130 gets you a DCC ready Class 66. £250 gets you the Scotsman set with a loco, 3 coaches, track and a controller Scotsman set

 

Bachmann seem to be maximising revenue in the face of restricted capacity at Kadar factories (whether because they can't pay the going rate for more production slots given that British RTR prices are below the world norm, or because capacity is tight anyway, we don't know ) . Rapido and Accurascale are certainly not targetting the budget sector . Dapol are not very interested in 4mm (they certainly target the budget sector in N)

 

Hornby are the only serious player in this sector.

 

Buying bits of second hand stuff off ebay is an option, but you are buying a series of pigs in a poke : some of the stuff might not work or be a bit battered round the edges...

[AY Mod]

19 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Dapol are not very interested in 4mm

 

Rubbish. They've produced some excellent OO products over the last couple of years.

 

20 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Kadar

 

Please spell it correctly.

[McC]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

Nobody other than Hornby caters for that sector. £130 gets you a DCC ready Class 66.

 

and £39 more gets you a OO one with high detail, built in stay alive and comprehensive lighting suite and built in speaker. 

 

accurascale make serious efforts to ensure pricing is very solid value for money and significantly less than the competition like for like. 

[Ravenser]

18 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Rubbish. They've produced some excellent OO products over the last couple of years.

 

 

Please spell it correctly.

 

The bulk of Dapol's range is in either N gauge or O . I'm not questioning the quality of Dapol's OO models, merely pointing out that 4mm isn#'t their major focus. They currently have no OO coaches at all (it has been suggested that the ex Mainline/Airfix moulds may be life expired) and a large part of their OO wagon offering is ex Hornby Dublo/Wrenn mouldings. Their OO loco range is modest, and it certainly isn't aimed at  the budget market. The 68 and 21 are not competing with 40 year old second hand off ebay

 

If Dapol had a "budget/entry" range in 4mm, it lay in the old Airfix/Mainline coaches, and the ex Wrenn wagons. The first seem to be no more, the second are being knocked out at £12.45. That they seem to have let the OO coaches go completely suggests they may not be so interested in 4mm or budget 4mm

 

On the other hand they are most emphatically targeting the "affordable" sector in N . N gauge 66s at a hundred quid and Class 33s for £80m have been a staple of the Dapol stand at large shows over the last few years, (Farish locos seem around £150)   and they've been selling bogie wagons in bundles or singly at prices equating to £17-£20 a vehicle off the stand - bogie Farish wagons seem to go for about £40-£45 

 

Dapol are a very different animal in the N gauge market from the 4mm market. In 4mm they are a niche or bit player brand.

 

There does seem to be an "affordable" market, and what Dapol have done in N with relatively modern tooling (10-20 year old) suggests an alternative strategy to chasing the top end in spec and pricing. But its not really their game in 4mm

[AY Mod]

4 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

They currently have no OO coaches at all

 

I really wish you would spend some time fact-checking yourself so that we don't have to waste time doing so.

 

Obviously you know nothing about the toplights.

[Ravenser]

2 minutes ago, McC said:

 

and £39 more gets you a OO one with high detail, built in stay alive and comprehensive lighting suite and built in speaker. 

 

accurascale make serious efforts to ensure pricing is very solid value for money and significantly less than the competition like for like. 

 

The Hornby OO 66 - with all its limitations - is currently £96. It hardly compares with a full fat model like the Hattons/Accurascale 66  and I wouldn't buy one, but for those whose main focus is low price , it shows an edge.

 

I was responding to a post which argued that Hornby has nothing much for the budget modeller and which was touting forty year old secondhand locos off ebay at an alleged £30 a pop as blow away competition . Accurascale are most certainly not competing with that

[Ravenser]

2 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

I really wish you would spend some time fact-checking yourself so that we don't have to waste time doing so.

 

Obviously you know nothing about the toplights.

 

Nothing is currently showing on the Dapol shop under OO coaches Dapol OO coaches which is why I made the comment.

 

They have the tooling, but apparently no current stock (And again, the Toplights are hardly a "budget" product. One suite of tooling doesn't really allow you to make a budget play in OO coaches)

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Nothing is currently showing on the Dapol shop under OO coaches Dapol OO coaches which is why I made the comment.

 

I don't know if it's ineptitude, obtuseness or ignorance but I am forever getting cheesed off with whatever it is.

[YT-1300]

8 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Nothing is currently showing on the Dapol shop under OO coaches Dapol OO coaches which is why I made the comment.

 

They have the tooling, but apparently no current stock (And again, the Toplights are hardly a "budget" product. One suite of tooling doesn't really allow you to make a budget play in OO coaches)

There is a reason why manufacturers aren't offering new budget ranges, by the time the research, CAD, tooling, materials, packaging, shipping etc etc then you wont get much of a saving from a high detail model.  High detail models sell, and sell well. 

 

Designing a set of tools to produce different variants of models makes much more financial sense than a one size fits all approach.

 

If you want to stick to budget models (and there is nothing wrong with it) then you have a massive used market out there.

[adb968008]

I for one bemoan the lack of modern units.

I think the lack of them is a restriction of the future market for todays younger modellers.

I would love the thought of a 2024 Lima delivering cheap units for that market.

 

However Manufacturers tell us the cost of super detail vs basic detail is so slim the costs of doing a basic model won’t save that much at RRP than having a super detail model.

 

And the customer really wants a basic model on belief the product would be a lower cost.

Also consider sizing how many units the consumer may actually buy.

 

Obviously theres a gap, which is currently too wide to cross.

 

If Manufacturers can get a unit at a cost, that reflects size of demand and a price consumers will pay, the level of detail will be an issue that solves itself.

 

so does it make sense to make basic cheap ranges ?

 

If there was a way to fill that gap, maybe modern prepainted airfix style kits are the answer ?

- Perhaps not, Bratchell has been doing this for years, and they are more expensive than a rtr unit.

To get to “cheap” you have to make a lot, and it seems not enough of us want it.

 

So otherwise wait for an innovation in China that makes cheaper models, or wage inflation here to enable the consumer to be able to afford them, or a growth in demand.

 

Until then, the younger ones are using virtualisation for modelling… I recently drove a pacer in Roblox, and have to admit it was pretty good, but  having it pass an Electrostar and a Union Pacific SD90 was stretching reality… that said my physical layout has similar reality issues. I have to be honest I have far less storage issues virtually, and the boxes don't get damaged and bits dont fall off either.

 

For now Its Arthurs sword in the stone, it glimmers, but its a teasing problem that going to take a while to be solved.

 

it is what it is.

 

 

Edited March 13 by adb968008

[ruggedpeak]

There are IMHO a number of issues in play. If a company is offering super detailed models it can operate a pre-order system with or without retailers as that segment of the market is happy to use that method.

 

For the trainset and occasional buyer you need actual stock available in virtual or real stores.

 

There is clearly a market for budget models with less detail. My take is that the current design and production processes for a new model are based on ever more detail. This precludes producing new budget models as the process is too slow and expensive. If the volume/margins are there, there may be a logic to setting up a streamlined design and production process to produce new tool budget models. I think this is sort of what Dapol have been doing. If a budget loco has limited parts, little need for assembly etc then it can be made perhaps outside of China.

 

Whether anyone takes a punt on that remains to be seen. At some point the super detail sector may run out of steam(!).

 

The danger with Fraser's is then doing this to take the Hornby brand awareness and use it to front a toy company producing generic products, much as they have done with brands like Karrimor.

[adb968008]

15 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

 

 

The danger with Fraser's is then doing this to take the Hornby brand awareness and use it to front a toy company producing generic products, much as they have done with brands like Karrimor.

I’d wager Brio outsells any other model train manufacturer… and its as basic as it gets and as cheap as it comes.

If thats what Hornby wants to take on, in order to be profitable, then thats the route it should go imo.

 

It might not be what we modellers want, but ultimately Hornby answers to shareholders, not us.

Hornby is just a company, just a name, its not set in stone that it as a company exists to serve super detailed modellers…if it found profit in being a Bakery… then a Bakery it should become.

 

Edited March 13 by adb968008