Hornby TT Easter announcement 2024

[Dunsignalling]

21 hours ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

 

 

Everyone needs to accept that TT:120 is here to stay.

 

 

You might think that, but I consider it a very premature conclusion.

 

I think that level of confidence in any new concept that has physically existed for less than two years shows a level of faith akin to believing that Windows 10 was going to be "forever".

 

As things currently stand, UK-outline TT:120 in r-t-r form lives or dies with Hornby's commitment to it.

 

There's zero chance of them binning it any time soon, but there will come a day (probably already set) when it will have to stand scrutiny against numbers (possibly already determined) that nobody outside Hornby knows. I happen to think it'll succeed, but that's a long way from being stone-cold certain about it!

 

If similar numbers of new announcements are made at Easter 2027, I'll agree wholeheartedly. 

 

John

 

Edited April 6 by Dunsignalling

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

All of those things except "simpletons" but Hornby's own take on TT:120 is that their  main targets are beginners, the space-starved and the budget conscious.

 

An inevitable implication of the last one is less separately-applied detail, which in any case would be less apparent due to the smaller size of the models.

 

It's unlikely that any commercial r-t-r range will ever cover every facet of modelling that anyone wants. That's why "smaller suppliers" exist and some modellers don't do r-t-r at all.  Most of us just go with whichever scale leaves the fewest and most manageable gaps in our requirements.  

 

For most people, almost everything they want that TT:120 offers could be achieved in N or OO, with far greater product choice. A lack of space and the desire to run long formations would clearly be better addressed by N, but other aspects give TT:120 the edge  for some. For the adopters TT:120 just leaves fewer gaps in the way they wish to participate in the hobby. Having (for now) to rely more heavily on Rule One than they might want is worth tolerating. Simply horses for courses, a happy medium, or whatever.

 

I'm not sure about "enjoying" announcements for their own sake, though.....

 

John

 

However that was only one way of "selling it", probably to the shareholders and press as much as potential customers.

 

Even from the "get go"* they were telling people who want finescale to look at the PECO products for things like track. So they knew that some of us that do model are interested.

 

Why are some of us interested? Possibly because it's fresh and new. Correct gauge is also a bonus. 

 

 

I just don''t understand why those that aren't interest are trying to kill it off. They aren't going to make what you want if it fails. Far from it!

 

 

*Not a term I like using but relevant

 

 

Jason

[AY Mod]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

But how does the specification/detail of the TT:120 HST's sit vis-a-vis the Railroad and "full-fat" OO versions?

 

I'd be comfortable stating that the TT:120 model standards are superior to the Railroad version but, as a consequence of scale, lacks a commensurate number of separate parts in comparison to the main range HST.

 

 

The review for BRM will feature in the next issue coming out in digital form next Friday. Unfortunately it's a cross breed in terms of livery but if you look hard enough you can find justification for this permutation.

 

[Dunsignalling]

47 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

However that was only one way of "selling it", probably to the shareholders and press as much as potential customers.

 

Even from the "get go"* they were telling people who want finescale to look at the PECO products for things like track. So they knew that some of us that do model are interested.

 

Why are some of us interested? Possibly because it's fresh and new. Correct gauge is also a bonus. 

 

 

I just don''t understand why those that aren't interest are trying to kill it off. They aren't going to make what you want if it fails. Far from it!

 

 

*Not a term I like using but relevant

 

 

Jason

 

There's a big difference between wanting it to fail and a healthy acceptance that it could. 

 

However you look at it, and however much market research they did in advance, Hornby's move is an innovation comparable with Frank Hornby launching Hornby Dublo in the 1930s.

 

The difference is that there are, nowadays, long-established scales a bit bigger and a bit smaller, well supported by multiple suppliers, so any advantages are less clear-cut.

 

Nobody outside Hornby knows how successful TT:120  needs to be in order to become a fixture in the business, though Hornby's "phases" provide a rough idea as to when it's long-term future is likely to be determined.

 

Will it expand, contract, disappear or continue as it is now? My personal crystal ball suggests a slight reduction in new models backed up with an increased rate of re-liveries to existing ones, starting in 2027. 

 

However, my point is that neither I or anyone else yet knows what the second decade of UK TT:120 might look like (assuming there will be one) ; and that almost certainly includes Hornby....

 

There's nothing that has attracted me so far. The Class 50 might, but only with a set of NSE Mk2s for it to pull! The coarse wheel profile would deter me from buying any steam outline loco, though, even with better track available from Peco.

 

John

 

 

Edited April 5 by Dunsignalling

[Steamport Southport]

4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

There's a big difference between wanting it to fail and a healthy acceptance that it could. 

 

However you look at it, and however much market research they did in advance, Hornby's move is an innovation comparable with Frank Hornby launching Hornby Dublo in the 1930s.

 

The difference is that size-wise, this time there are established scales a bit bigger and a bit smaller, well supported by multiple suppliers, so any advantages are less clear-cut.

 

Nobody outside Hornby knows how successful TT:120  needs to be in order to become a fixture in the business, though Hornby's "phases" provide a rough idea as to when it's long-term future is likely to be determined.

 

Will it expand, contract, disappear or continue as it is now? My personal crystal ball suggests a slight reduction in new models backed up with an increased rate of re-liveries to existing ones, starting in 2027. 

 

However, my point is that neither I or anyone else yet knows, and that probably includes Hornby....

 

There's nothing that has attracted me so far. The Class 50 might, but only with a set of NSE Mk2s for it to pull! The coarse wheel profile would deter me from buying any steam outline loco, though, even with better track available from Peco.

 

John

 

 

 

It's not healthy though. It seems to be an obsession over something you don't actually want....

 

 

Crystal balls? Didn't Mystic Meg have one of those? ISTR she never won the lottery....

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

It's not healthy though. It seems to be an obsession over something you don't actually want....

 

 

Crystal balls? Didn't Mystic Meg have one of those? ISTR she never won the lottery....

 

 

Jason

 

I don't want yet , it's up to Hornby to change that. If I do jump it'll be post-steam which I don't do in OO any more, but I've never progressed my idea of doing it in N Gauge.

 

However, I accept TT:120 will never become my main interest, which I suspect tallies with the way most long-standing participants in the hobby feel.  In any case, we are some way outside Hornby's business plan  for the new scale. They want to supplement their OO sales, not replace them. 

 

Sorry about the wasted tongue-in-cheek humour.

 

Do you have a better guess as to what might happen a few years hence? Are you not bothered (I would be if I'd sunk a few hundred quid into it), or do you have blind faith in TT:120 driving all before it?

 

John

[Delta_Who]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

It's not healthy though. It seems to be an obsession over something you don't actually want....

 

 

Crystal balls? Didn't Mystic Meg have one of those? ISTR she never won the lottery....

 

 

Jason

 

That's sort of how I feel tbh. I'm not currently into TT:120, but I have flirted with the idea of a smaller scale, of which TT:120 and 009 are contenders for me. I don't currently see any plausible reason to downplay TT right now given that, it's so young in its existence in the UK RTR market. 

 

There is clear interest in the scale (otherwise we wouldn't have a 300 page forum post dedicated to the subject recycling the same viewpoints. It has people's attention). Seeing more layout concepts in TT. More traders. And Hornby are selling. More internationally adept models are going to be produced e.g. 66. Surely that growth... any growth... can only be positive for the hobby and Hornby? If a real niche like EM & P4 can get a foot in the door with manufacturers... if N-scale and 009 can grow to the acclaim it has today... then surely TT can too?

[Pmorgancym]

4 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

I'd be comfortable stating that the TT:120 model standards are superior to the Railroad version but, as a consequence of scale, lacks a commensurate number of separate parts in comparison to the main range HST.

 

 

The review for BRM will feature in the next issue coming out in digital form next Friday. Unfortunately it's a cross breed in terms of livery but if you look hard enough you can find justification for this permutation.

 

Based on what's said there, a direct comparison between the Dapol N, TT, Railroad and full Fat Hornby HSTs might be interesting

[Les1952]

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

There's a big difference between wanting it to fail and a healthy acceptance that it could. 

 

However you look at it, and however much market research they did in advance, Hornby's move is an innovation comparable with Frank Hornby launching Hornby Dublo in the 1930s.

 

The difference is that there are, nowadays, long-established scales a bit bigger and a bit smaller, well supported by multiple suppliers, so any advantages are less clear-cut.

 

Nobody outside Hornby knows how successful TT:120  needs to be in order to become a fixture in the business, though Hornby's "phases" provide a rough idea as to when it's long-term future is likely to be determined.

 

Will it expand, contract, disappear or continue as it is now? My personal crystal ball suggests a slight reduction in new models backed up with an increased rate of re-liveries to existing ones, starting in 2027. 

 

However, my point is that neither I or anyone else yet knows what the second decade of UK TT:120 might look like (assuming there will be one) ; and that almost certainly includes Hornby....

 

There's nothing that has attracted me so far. The Class 50 might, but only with a set of NSE Mk2s for it to pull! The coarse wheel profile would deter me from buying any steam outline loco, though, even with better track available from Peco.

 

John

 

 

 

Given that Hornby includes Arnold, and Arnold has an established market share on the Continent AND a reputation for being amongst the best quality out there in TT:120 I suspect that TT:120 is going to be around in Hornby for some time.  Looking at the way the "in stock" numbers of the Hornby Pacifics are fluctuating on the Continental retailer websites it seems pretty apparent that Hornby UK has gained a foothold into Europe that OO gauge has just failed to manage in the last umpty twiddly years...

 

The 66 will sell well both here and on the Continent.  The time that Hornby have taken to get this up to Arnold standard shows they realise it has to be a flagship product.  While there isn't enough UK stuff presently for me to do much more than dabble in UK outline  I'm learning new skills with my new TT:120 layout Bregstadt, and after setting up at South Notts show I'm wondering why my three 4 wheel railbuses are consistently running smoothly where my seven B-B diesels are finding every speck of dirt and stalling on Hornby's long dead frogs.   If a 4 wheeler runs smoothly through Hornby points why not a heavier 8 wheeled diesel?

 

Les

 

[TT100 Diesels]

13 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Chatting to the 3mm Society at York, TT120 has seen a marked interest in people taking out membership with them.

 

I have heard feedback from the 3mm society stand folk at York (when I saw them on the Sat and post show) who were saying that a large proportion of the people enquiring about 3mm were people who were initially swayed by TT120. But when they saw the 3mm models on display on the stand together with the 'Coniston Lakebank' and 'Bluish' 3mm scale exhibition layouts at York, thought the TT120 was a bit small and preferred the heft of the 3mm scale models.

 

It's an interesting take on things and its only feedback from one show, so not a massive sample in the grand scheme of things, but interesting nevertheless.

 

While I myself am a 3mm modeller, I have no axe to grind against TT120 or Hornby. In fact I am very impressed with what I have seen so far and remain tempted into possibly getting some stock in the future. But that said, I do also think that 3mm is the better size (but accept that is purely my personal opinion only).

 

I am sure TT120 will continue to grow, and for most people it remains the obvious choice over 3mm for the simple fact that new rtr does not exist in 3mm.

 

Cheers

 

TT100 Diesels

[Pmorgancym]

One brining question, are the J50 we see pictured the real deal or are they 00 models with TT couplers photoshopped on? (As Bachmann were oft to do with Grafar announcements)

[Phil Parker]

8 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

One brining question, are the J50 we see pictured the real deal or are they 00 models with TT couplers photoshopped on? (As Bachmann were oft to do with Grafar announcements)

 

This was the state of play back in December, so I'm inclined to think they have samples by now.

 

 

[Johan DC]

In the Q&A afterwards they showed the first mouldings, so they did advance beyond 3D.

[Taigatrommel]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

One brining question, are the J50 we see pictured the real deal or are they 00 models with TT couplers photoshopped on? (As Bachmann were oft to do with Grafar announcements)

 

I think Photoshop, they had only just had the tooling samples which hadn't yet been assembled on April 2nd.

[Railpassion]

I liked the 3mm at York. The blue diesels looked the part. Chunky and not too small. The class 76s were very neat.

[BrakeCoach]

The HST box set seems really approachable to people who want a starter set thats not in the steam era. I am definitely interested in the HST set to try out modeling in that scale.

 

Honestly, if it wasn't for the proliferation of Japanese N scale in my general area, I would have entirely ditched N scale and dove head first into TT.

[irishmail]

Must admit, I'm tempted by the HST set, not that I need one has I have a few Lima ones in 00 already.  😆

[JSpencer]

I find something almost nostalgic about the TT range now it has the HST out, a HST train set, a BR blue 08 and soon(ish) a class 37 then 31....

It's starting to look like the Hornby trains I had as a kid in the 70s/80s.

 

IF I was coming back to the hobby after a break, this would certainly make a good starting point for me. As it is I have this lot in modern day standards RTR in OO gauge.

In the 1990s, I had planned an SECR layout to TT (100th with 14.2mm track) but even that has all now appeared in OO RTR.

 

Perhaps here may be a problem, the range looks a lot like 70s/80s range to my eyes, and kids today would doubtless want things that are more recent. 

[D9020 Nimbus]

On 05/04/2024 at 20:37, Les1952 said:

If a 4 wheeler runs smoothly through Hornby points why not a heavier 8 wheeled diesel?

Traction tyres? The railbuses might not have them.

[moawkwrd]

2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

Perhaps here may be a problem, the range looks a lot like 70s/80s range to my eyes, and kids today would doubtless want things that are more recent. 

 

People say this a lot but I don't think it really holds up to scrutiny... he says as a 30 year old who finds anything past 1980-ish dull and boring, with current day at the worst end of that spectrum. If TT:120 had only been current/modern stuff I never would've got back into the hobby.

Edited April 7 by moawkwrd

[BrakeCoach]

I think it would be safe to assume that kids who like trains nowadays would still love the HST and the A3 and A4. Timeless classics.

[Ravenser]

On 06/04/2024 at 00:29, TT100 Diesels said:

 

I have heard feedback from the 3mm society stand folk at York (when I saw them on the Sat and post show) who were saying that a large proportion of the people enquiring about 3mm were people who were initially swayed by TT120. But when they saw the 3mm models on display on the stand together with the 'Coniston Lakebank' and 'Bluish' 3mm scale exhibition layouts at York, thought the TT120 was a bit small and preferred the heft of the 3mm scale models.

 

It's an interesting take on things and its only feedback from one show, so not a massive sample in the grand scheme of things, but interesting nevertheless.

 

While I myself am a 3mm modeller, I have no axe to grind against TT120 or Hornby. In fact I am very impressed with what I have seen so far and remain tempted into possibly getting some stock in the future. But that said, I do also think that 3mm is the better size (but accept that is purely my personal opinion only).

 

I am sure TT120 will continue to grow, and for most people it remains the obvious choice over 3mm for the simple fact that new rtr does not exist in 3mm.

 

Cheers

 

TT100 Diesels

 

This raises some interesting issues - particularly that "presence" or "heft" does matter, and that it's one of the things that make a significant difference to people. There is no doubt that 4mm/HO have traditionally represented a sweet spot, where presence , detail and ease of construction are good, but space demands are a lot more modest than 7mm.

 

However it is increasingly becoming the case that things have shifted and 4mm is no longer such a convenient size. There are two issues - the chronic housing shortage which is squeezing the space available at home (amongst other issues you won't be building a permanent layout if youre on a shorthold tenancy), and the fact that railway vehicles have steadily grown over the last 75 years. 23m vehicles are much longer than 57' ones, 66s are much longer than 20s and 25s or an 0-6-0 goods , and not merely have wagons grown well beyond the classic 17'6" underframe we've reached a point where almost all wagons on the network are bogie vehicles, taking 8" to 12" length in 4mm. 

 

It's good to see that the emergence of TT:120 is producing a small but significant flow of  new members for the 3mm Society. I know the Society has identified that it has a demographic issue, and this should help to address it. But it is easy not to see the wood for the trees here. The simple fact is that 60 years after Triang pulled the plug on TT3 in the face of a devastating collapse in the modest sales of the range, 3mm scale is very much still with us.

 

That's why I'm very much one of those saying that TT:120 is here to stay. And I think the hobby should come to terms with that fact, and try and make the most of it. There have been concerns expressed recently about negativity in the hobby, and it's deeply depressing that within 72 hours of a significant new product announcement , discussion is back to scenarios for the collapse of the initiative and whether the scale will disappear completely.

 

It won't. This has gone far too far, far too fast, to disappear completely now. I enter one big caveat - what kind of future British outline modelling in TT:120 has is very much up for grabs. But a future it will have. By early next year there will be 8 British prototype locos available in TT:120. There will be at least 5 different suites of coaches , and a decent range of wagons. This is more than TT3 managed.  The Phase 2 items have been open for pre-orders for 18 months, so presumably the first production runs \are largely sold already and further runs will certainly follow. Behind that Hornby are already heavily committed to Castle, 37, J94, 57xx, 31, 47, and probably a 9F and more rolling stock. TT:120 has been selling as fast as they make it - when people stopped counting batch sizes last year production of Gresley Pacifics  was apparently heading towards 10,000 and presumably it's comfortably into 5 figures now. It's full steam ahead for the next 12-18 months at least, even on the most pessimistic scenarios

 

Even if you believe that TT:120 will follow TT3 with a parabolic sales curve falling away steeply 3-4 years in, there is going to be just too much stuff out there , and too many people actively involved, for this scale to disappear from British modelling. Even the scraps of British outline HO from the 1970s (which were total commercial failures) have provoked a Society, and a bunch of folk doggedly convinced this is the answer. The long term prospects for TT:120 are much better than for 3mm after 1964. Triang removed the only source of readymade 12mm mechanisms and 12mm gauge track. That garotted the scale - those are the two things that are most difficult to make. In contrast, this time 12mm track will always remain available because of the Continental market, 12mm mechanisms will be available, there will be an ecosystem of 1/120 items,and once a model 66 exists in TT, then someone will keep making one

 

Anyone who thinks that TT:120 can be headed off at the pass, that it can be clubbed out of existance by posting online, or that if we all stick together and refuse to recognise it, TT:120 will go away and we can all go back to the happy land of 2022,  is deluding themselves. (I have in mind the notorious Chadwick video with its chanted refrain "it's a trainset!"  : surely an attempt to suggest that TT:120 has no place in railway modelling and should be opposed) . The only sane response is to say "Well, it's here . I don't know whether I'd have done it, or how far it will be a commercial success for Hornby. But it exists, and Hornby's money isn't my problem, so let's see what we can make of it"

 

If you haven't got room to do it in 4mm - and a lot of people haven't, what do you do?  It is not  obvious that N gauge is the only possible modelling scale smaller than 4mm.   It is very noticeable that for a lot of people who don't really have space for 4mm,  N gauge is not a workable solution. There are a lot of people in the hobby who have "bounced off" N. Over the years I've seen a lot of comments of the form " Haven't got a lot of space or a layout,  started off in OO, tried N but it wasn't for me/found it too fiddly/couldn't get on with it so here I am, back in OO . Now how do I do something in the limited space I've got?"

 

There could be an opening for a scale larger than N but smaller than OO. If you are in N long term then clearly N works for you and you don't see the issue. There are those who like the presence and detail and ease of construction in 4mm - but haven't got the space. 3mm is bedeviled by scale gauge issues: do you go 14.2mm then have to handbuild all the track and chassis to exacting standards? Or do you go 12mm and have a seriously underscale track gauge? Hornby have said, in effect, the gauge has to be 12mm , since that is already a commercial gauge, and there's a Continental market for the track.  Then it makes sense to go to 1/120 scale , because that is the  scale used commercially on the Continent for 12mm gauge RTR  .

 

Those then are the intermediate options : 3mm scale /14.2mm gauge, 3mm/12mm gauge, TT:120 . Take your pick. Different people will make different choices in differing circumstances

 

The argument that there is more RTR available in N is simply not the knockdown argument that some folk think, if your starting point is "N gauge is too small a scale to satisfy me".

 

Put another way 7mm modelling has flourished and grown in the last 35 years, even though no conventional RTR was available until about 10 years ago. If someone likes the heft of 7mm, it's not an effective argument to say that there is more RTR in OO and you can build a layout in less space, so you should stick to 4mm.

 

OO9 has only had RTR support quite recently . But for half a century it got by ok without it, based on kits and the availability of 9mm track and mechanisms. The lack of RTR was not a knockdown argument against OO9. Some of the hobby actually like making things.

 

Even this is to concede too much to the naysayers. It's entirely possible given what we've seen so far, that demand for TT:120 will be fully sufficient to sustain production of commercial RTR indefinitely. S gauge is a commercial scale in the US. The range of RTR is much smaller than for HO, of course, but folk who like the scale or perhaps want to be different, work in it.  Marklin's Z gauge is never going to displace N , but it's been around since 1972 and there are no threads with eager posters speculating about how soon Marklin will drop it

 

All of those scenarios are on the table for TT:120 in Britain. What is not possible is a scenario where 1:120 is not an available option for British outline modelling, (even if the cynic in me mutters that MRJ will only publish its first article on "P120" about 9 months after Hornby announce a suspension of production...)  

 

"As I was going down the stair

I met a man who wasn't there.

I saw him there again today -

I wish, I wish he'd go  away"

 

(AA Milne, I think - someone may be able to confirm)      

[TT100 Diesels]

Hi Ravenser,

 

Since you quoted me, I thought it polite to leave you a reaction, in this case "I agree", but don't appear to be able to, hence this post. So yes, just to say I'me in agreement to your points made above. 

 

But as I am on, it also strikes me that folk getting into TT120 are in an even better position than the folk in TT3 in the 1960's because with the advent of current technology such as 3d printing, folk who are happy to do stuff can and are already taking advantage to produce some great stuff not in the Hornby catalogue.

 

One only needs to pop over to the specialist TT120 threads to look at the innovation, a Deltic, a 313 EMU, shot down 33 and Hymek, et al. This is just the beginning. I thoroughly enjoy following these innovations, it reminds me of the sort of stuff folk are busy doing in the sister scale (3mm).

 

And as a 12mm gauge man, I remain tempted to put my hand in my wallet and get some TT120 and flip flop the roster between 3mm and 120 when more current era stuff becomes available (don't want to do blue diesels twice, it would be a bit pointless to me).

 

Cheers

 

TT100 Diesels

 

 

[Roy L S]

18 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

This raises some interesting issues - particularly that "presence" or "heft" does matter, and that it's one of the things that make a significant difference to people. There is no doubt that 4mm/HO have traditionally represented a sweet spot, where presence , detail and ease of construction are good, but space demands are a lot more modest than 7mm.

 

However it is increasingly becoming the case that things have shifted and 4mm is no longer such a convenient size. There are two issues - the chronic housing shortage which is squeezing the space available at home (amongst other issues you won't be building a permanent layout if youre on a shorthold tenancy), and the fact that railway vehicles have steadily grown over the last 75 years. 23m vehicles are much longer than 57' ones, 66s are much longer than 20s and 25s or an 0-6-0 goods , and not merely have wagons grown well beyond the classic 17'6" underframe we've reached a point where almost all wagons on the network are bogie vehicles, taking 8" to 12" length in 4mm. 

 

It's good to see that the emergence of TT:120 is producing a small but significant flow of  new members for the 3mm Society. I know the Society has identified that it has a demographic issue, and this should help to address it. But it is easy not to see the wood for the trees here. The simple fact is that 60 years after Triang pulled the plug on TT3 in the face of a devastating collapse in the modest sales of the range, 3mm scale is very much still with us.

 

That's why I'm very much one of those saying that TT:120 is here to stay. And I think the hobby should come to terms with that fact, and try and make the most of it. There have been concerns expressed recently about negativity in the hobby, and it's deeply depressing that within 72 hours of a significant new product announcement , discussion is back to scenarios for the collapse of the initiative and whether the scale will disappear completely.

 

It won't. This has gone far too far, far too fast, to disappear completely now. I enter one big caveat - what kind of future British outline modelling in TT:120 has is very much up for grabs. But a future it will have. By early next year there will be 8 British prototype locos available in TT:120. There will be at least 5 different suites of coaches , and a decent range of wagons. This is more than TT3 managed.  The Phase 2 items have been open for pre-orders for 18 months, so presumably the first production runs \are largely sold already and further runs will certainly follow. Behind that Hornby are already heavily committed to Castle, 37, J94, 57xx, 31, 47, and probably a 9F and more rolling stock. TT:120 has been selling as fast as they make it - when people stopped counting batch sizes last year production of Gresley Pacifics  was apparently heading towards 10,000 and presumably it's comfortably into 5 figures now. It's full steam ahead for the next 12-18 months at least, even on the most pessimistic scenarios

 

Even if you believe that TT:120 will follow TT3 with a parabolic sales curve falling away steeply 3-4 years in, there is going to be just too much stuff out there , and too many people actively involved, for this scale to disappear from British modelling. Even the scraps of British outline HO from the 1970s (which were total commercial failures) have provoked a Society, and a bunch of folk doggedly convinced this is the answer. The long term prospects for TT:120 are much better than for 3mm after 1964. Triang removed the only source of readymade 12mm mechanisms and 12mm gauge track. That garotted the scale - those are the two things that are most difficult to make. In contrast, this time 12mm track will always remain available because of the Continental market, 12mm mechanisms will be available, there will be an ecosystem of 1/120 items,and once a model 66 exists in TT, then someone will keep making one

 

Anyone who thinks that TT:120 can be headed off at the pass, that it can be clubbed out of existance by posting online, or that if we all stick together and refuse to recognise it, TT:120 will go away and we can all go back to the happy land of 2022,  is deluding themselves. (I have in mind the notorious Chadwick video with its chanted refrain "it's a trainset!"  : surely an attempt to suggest that TT:120 has no place in railway modelling and should be opposed) . The only sane response is to say "Well, it's here . I don't know whether I'd have done it, or how far it will be a commercial success for Hornby. But it exists, and Hornby's money isn't my problem, so let's see what we can make of it"

 

If you haven't got room to do it in 4mm - and a lot of people haven't, what do you do?  It is not  obvious that N gauge is the only possible modelling scale smaller than 4mm.   It is very noticeable that for a lot of people who don't really have space for 4mm,  N gauge is not a workable solution.

 

 

There could be an opening for a scale larger than N but smaller than OO. If you are in N long term then clearly N works for you and you don't see the issue. There are those who like the presence and detail and ease of construction in 4mm - but haven't got the space. 3mm is bedeviled by scale gauge issues: do you go 14.2mm then have to handbuild all the track and chassis to exacting standards? Or do you go 12mm and have a seriously underscale track gauge? Hornby have said, in effect, the gauge has to be 12mm , since that is already a commercial gauge, and there's a Continental market for the track.  Then it makes sense to go to 1/120 scale , because that is the  scale used commercially on the Continent for 12mm gauge RTR  .

 

Those then are the intermediate options : 3mm scale /14.2mm gauge, 3mm/12mm gauge, TT:120 . Take your pick. Different people will make different choices in differing circumstances

 

The argument that there is more RTR available in N is simply not the knockdown argument that some folk think, if your starting point is "N gauge is too small a scale to satisfy me".

 

Put another way 7mm modelling has flourished and grown in the last 35 years, even though no conventional RTR was available until about 10 years ago. If someone likes the heft of 7mm, it's not an effective argument to say that there is more RTR in OO and you can build a layout in less space, so you should stick to 4mm.

 

OO9 has only had RTR support quite recently . But for half a century it got by ok without it, based on kits and the availability of 9mm track and mechanisms. The lack of RTR was not a knockdown argument against OO9. Some of the hobby actually like making things.

 

Even this is to concede too much to the naysayers. It's entirely possible given what we've seen so far, that demand for TT:120 will be fully sufficient to sustain production of commercial RTR indefinitely. S gauge is a commercial scale in the US. The range of RTR is much smaller than for HO, of course, but folk who like the scale or perhaps want to be different, work in it.  Marklin's Z gauge is never going to displace N , but it's been around since 1972 and there are no threads with eager posters speculating about how soon Marklin will drop it

 

All of those scenarios are on the table for TT:120 in Britain. What is not possible is a scenario where 1:120 is not an available option for British outline modelling, (even if the cynic in me mutters that MRJ will only publish its first article on "P120" about 9 months after Hornby announce a suspension of production...)  

 

"As I was going down the stair

I met a man who wasn't there.

I saw him there again today -

I wish, I wish he'd go  away"

 

(AA Milne, I think - someone may be able to confirm)      

There are so many points made in the above that I agree with, but a few I do not: -

 

"There are a lot of people in the hobby who have "bounced off" N. Over the years I've seen a lot of comments of the form " Haven't got a lot of space or a layout,  started off in OO, tried N but it wasn't for me/found it too fiddly/couldn't get on with it so here I am, back in OO . Now how do I do something in the limited space I've got?"

 

I think there will inevitably be some, but I would challenge there being "a lot" and certainly not enough to in itself warrant an entirely new scale being developed.

"The argument that there is more RTR available in N is simply not the knockdown argument that some folk think, if your starting point is "N gauge is too small a scale to satisfy me".

 

Respectfully I disagree. We have already witnessed comments to the effect that people will not engage with TT120 as a viable modelling scale until there is sufficient a range of models. I do not want to get into the issue of how quickly Hornby can (or will) add products to the range, but it is clear that the lack of range in TT120 now (and for what may be a considerable time to come)  is preventing some from entering the scale. Such a range does exist in N, it is substantial, supported by many manufacturers and absolutely will attract many potential TT120 modellers for whom that is an issue, not least because of the quality of what is being produced, which is comparable and in many cases better. Also, at 2.065mm/ft (I am talking British here as TT120 already is a thing on the continent and elsewhere) is actually less than 1/5 smaller as a scale than TT120 - noticeably smaller of course, but significantly smaller? For a small minority possibly yes, for most probably not and for a layout in terms of square footage it takes up a lot less space for a comparable Tt120 layout. So, there absolutely will now and for a long time to come be a significant number who if looking for a minimum/smaller space British layout will choose N over TT120 based on available range alone. 

"Even this is to concede too much to the naysayers. It's entirely possible given what we've seen so far, that demand for TT:120 will be fully sufficient to sustain production of commercial RTR indefinitely. S gauge is a commercial scale in the US. The range of RTR is much smaller than for HO, of course, but folk who like the scale or perhaps want to be different, work in it.  Marklin's Z gauge is never going to displace N , but it's been around since 1972 and there are no threads with eager posters speculating about how soon Marklin will drop it".

 

Hornby under and influenced by Simon Kohler clearly saw a market for TT120 or they would not have started investing in the scale so heavily, this has continued, possibly in a more pragmatic and diluted form under current management. Initial demand was strong, but how many like me will have taken a "punt" on an "Easterner" set (or similar) because at a discounted price of £165 for a complete set it would simply have been rude not to, based on curiosity value alone? How much of this has translated into sustainable future sales to newcomers to railway modelling, or "converts" from other scales it is simply too soon to say. Definitely it has some, and some (like me) will see TT120 as a small "side hustle" to another established modelling scale but that's all, which doesn't matter as after all it is still sales, but then some, and likely a very significant proportion of existing modellers won't engage with the new scale at all. 

 

Will TT120 succeed and become established as a British modelling scale? At this point it is too soon to say for sure. What is abundantly clear is that Hornby have belief that it will and have a strategy to add products to the range for the next few years so they are giving it every chance. Personally I believe it will probably carve itself a place a place too, because the size will inevitably suit some as an alternative to OO or N and it would be wrong to suggest otherwise. However I can't see it threatening those established scales in terms of volume. If we could "fast forward" five years, I think that there is much more chance that we would see TT120 continuing to be modelled in Britain than not and with manufacturer's support.

 

Roy

 

[Red Devil]

9 minutes ago, TT100 Diesels said:

Hi Ravenser,

 

Since you quoted me, I thought it polite to leave you a reaction, in this case "I agree", but don't appear to be able to, hence this post. So yes, just to say I'me in agreement to your points made above. 

 

But as I am on, it also strikes me that folk getting into TT120 are in an even better position than the folk in TT3 in the 1960's because with the advent of current technology such as 3d printing, folk who are happy to do stuff can and are already taking advantage to produce some great stuff not in the Hornby catalogue.

 

One only needs to pop over to the specialist TT120 threads to look at the innovation, a Deltic, a 313 EMU, shot down 33 and Hymek, et al. This is just the beginning. I thoroughly enjoy following these innovations, it reminds me of the sort of stuff folk are busy doing in the sister scale (3mm).

 

And as a 12mm gauge man, I remain tempted to put my hand in my wallet and get some TT120 and flip flop the roster between 3mm and 120 when more current era stuff becomes available (don't want to do blue diesels twice, it would be a bit pointless to me).

 

Cheers

 

TT100 Diesels

 

 

I'd agree too, plus I think 3mm will benefit too by those like me who looked at TT120 and decided it was just a bit too small for them and decided to go 3mm. Room for both....even though 12mm stuff is of zero use to me personally.