Dapol Class 21/29

[Andy Y]

the facts given were that the CAD's were imminent

First CADs barely scratch the surface as we know from the Western. They were available at possibly 10% into the timeline. It may be apparent in preparing for the first CADs where deficiencies in data may lie thus necessitating further information searches. Sometimes 'official' sources have some very big gaps, and that's assuming they even know where they have gaps. Even then information may have to be compiled from some very unusual sources (as I know from another project with another manufacturer).

 

It's not an issue which just affects any one manufacturer.

[Guest jim s-w]

I know of efforts that have been made and also know where some of the information gaps are which means the loco will have missed slots in the process.  Not necessarily, I could cite several other examples which are announced at preliminary stages to put a stake in the ground; and they're not Dapol projects. I'm sure others can too.Facts have been stated.

 

Absolutely, the smaller kit manufacturers tend to do it more than the big boys but then i did say normally. Some will remember that lima catalogue that seemed to announce pretty much every diesel and electric running at the time. I think the only new thing that actually made it was the class 40.

[davknigh]

On the plus side the value of the old Hornby 21/29 model will continue to stay high as a basis for scratchbuilding an accurate model.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Bob Reid]

First CADs barely scratch the surface as we know from the Western. They were available at possibly 10% into the timeline. It may be apparent in preparing for the first CADs where deficiencies in data may lie thus necessitating further information searches. Sometimes 'official' sources have some very big gaps, and that's assuming they even know where they have gaps. Even then information may have to be compiled from some very unusual sources (as I know from another project with another manufacturer).

 

It's not an issue which just affects any one manufacturer.

 

I was mindfull however that Dave had said earlier that;

 

"The main reason for doing the 29 first is that we have access to a large scale accurate model that we will laser scan as a basis for our model, and then subsequently putting slides in the tooling to allow for backdating etc to a 21. (like we have with the 22) makes life easier."

 

made it all sound like it was considerably further on in respect of what information was available, when added to what was announced over two years ago.  Clearly now though that's not the case.  Sure it's not the end of the world just disappointing.

 

Whether other manufacturers are guilty of the same is neither here not there.  They (perhaps fortunately) were not the one that announced the plan to produce them.

 

Many thanks,

[Guest Phil]

Another interesting topic being discussed here, which illustrates to a degree the different MO's of our model suppliers. We as consumers have our own thoughts on the production of our preferred models, but it is obviously not so easy.

 

Consider the guys from Margate who obviously check out wishlists, and who chose to produce a 4mm scale 2 BIL EMU. From the consumers point of view the first official news of this was when it was announced on 17th December 2012, and it is here !!!! Notwithstanding the alleged supply and quantity issues. Clearly Hornby held onto the announcement until the last minute, and in doing so, gave their customers (retailers and consumers) a substantial headache.

 

Conversely, from memory, Dapol a few years ago announced quite a list of models they were going to produce. something along the lines of specials for Kernow of the "Thumper" DEMU, to Beattie well tank, the NBL "baby Warship", the big A1A A1A "Warship" and the DE "class 21/29". I would have thought Dapol making a decision to invest several hundred thousand pounds in the latter model, would have established the viability of the project. On the face of it the "class 22" would be a drawings-only production, as there isn't a 1:1 survivor to computer scan. I that case the same methods would need to be employed for the diesel-electric NBL design.

 

The question I have to ask why the perceived difference ? Was it really the case that the D63xx had a set of detailed drawings available to produce the tooling, whereas the D61xx hasn't ? Even so, is it really beyond the wit to produce a set of tooling for a model for which limited detailed drawings exist ? How do other manufacturers manage ?

 

As I've said before the Dapol D63xx is without doubt a fine model, and IMHO one of the best diesel models I've had the pleasure of buying. Surely Dapol can follow up this model with an equally superlative D61xx ?

[the penguin of doom]

I know of efforts that have been made and also know where some of the information gaps are which means the loco will have missed slots in the process. Not necessarily, I could cite several other examples which are announced at preliminary stages to put a stake in the ground; and they're not Dapol projects. I'm sure others can too.Facts have been stated.

To be fair to Jim, he did use the word "normally" as opposed to any word suggesting this was always the case.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Edited February 24, 2013 by the penguin of doom

[Nimbus]

Depends of course what you asked for Dave - the NBL records and plans are held by them but I've no doubt it would require (as it is in general with the likes of the NRM) a fair bit of work actually going through the archive on the ground for I doubt most archivist's will know one 1000hp diesel-electric from another!

 

I've been through this (too long ago for my liking), with LNER contract-built locos. The key is (was) to be able to quote the NBL order number, of the form 'Lnnn'.

The catalogue records appropriate to this were printed for me, from which I ordered.

 

HTH,

 

The Nim.

[Strathyre]

OK, now returned from Africa (and the 39 degree temperature difference is just marvellous) and have found the plans.

 

They have been in my possession for longer than I thought - a chap called William Thorburn of Barclay's sent them, an ex-NBL employee. I was unfortunate never to meet him in person, only conversing with him by 'phone, but a nicer and more helpful guy you couldn't have wished to meet. He happened to be the man who answered the 'phone when I rang looking for info on the NBLs and he didn't disappoint.

 

They appear to be large scale engineer's drawings, most likely copies of the blueprints, showing the dimensions of the locomotive and the component layout for the whole locomotive and an additional page showing the bulkhead details throughout the loco and the front ends. As I say they appear to be engineer's scale drawings and also show the dotted outline positions of the external features such as grilles, windows etc. The bogies and roof are also well shown, the former showing clearly the springing and traction motor arrangements and even details such as the drivers and secondman's seats are shown so clearly that they could be modelled accurately from the plans. The control desk and cab layout are also clearly shown right down to the individual shapes of the controls. The scale is 1 inch to 1 foot, drawn by J L Burns of NBL, NBL diagram A24/56. No date shown on the plans but they look like the pilot scheme locos.

 

I'm no expert but I believe that a large scale replica of the locomotive could be built using these plans and, to cap it all, they are drawn to scale....

 

They are pretty delicate but not to the extent of falling apart and would be easily copyable, I just hope they would be of some use. I recall offering them to the project to build a full size new build replica of the class and as far as I recall didn't as they didn't get back to me. Since the project seems to have sadly disappeared without trace the plans would most likely have gone the same way had I sent them. Perhaps fate was stirring things even way back then.....?

 

Dave, if you want them please PM me with the address that they should be sent to. The drawings are around four feet in length, perhaps more.

 

Paul

 

Edited to correct the apollung spelin.......

Edited February 24, 2013 by Strathyre

[Bob Reid]

Come through with that one Paul - what else is in that loft?

..

 

[Strathyre]

Come through with that one Paul - what else is in that loft?

..

 

 

You should know Bob, the big ugly magpie that I am...........bunch of running-in boards actually, don't know how the ceilings stand it but thankfully my wife doesn't make a habit of looking up there............

[Guest Max Stafford]

Paul. That's a great find but please, please, get the drawings professionally copied and send the copies. Those originals are too precious to risk.

I did meet you briefly at the Caley Stand on Friday I believe. I was talking to Willy then I had to get back to the WRHA stand.

Those drawings sound pretty special though!

 

Dave.

[DapolDave]

Sometimes things like these happen and make your day.

 

Paul has certainly made mine, that's for sure.

PM sent and dialogue started :-)

 

Cheers

Dave

[Strathyre]

Paul. That's a great find but please, please, get the drawings professionally copied and send the copies. Those originals are too precious to risk.

I did meet you briefly at the Caley Stand on Friday I believe. I was talking to Willy then I had to get back to the WRHA stand.

Those drawings sound pretty special though!

 

Dave.

Not me on Friday Dave, been out in South Sudan for the last 5 weeks and only returned this morning - perhaps it was Daniel Craig you met, I'm frequently mistaken for him and he's fair scunnered getting mistaken for me apparently.......

['CHARD]

Sometimes things like these happen and make your day.

 

Paul has certainly made mine, that's for sure.

PM sent and dialogue started :-)

 

Cheers

Dave

 

And on that bombshell, perhaps we can get back to some of the more measured comment for which we are (sometimes) famed.

 

I'm pretty sure it's Dapol that have just brought the Western to market, isn't it?  So we all know what the company's capable of and how it engages with its marketplace.  We seem to have joyfully forgotten that here.

 

I can't justify one of those beautiful 52s OR a Sad-Eyes for that matter, but if we can now apply our collective wisdom and critical eye to this model than perhaps in late 2014 all you Speysiders, Glen Docharteers and Cadder Yardies will have your wishes come true.

 

Me, I'm off to do some modelling.

[spackz]

This is very encouraging news, its nice to know that work on this model can now continue and I look forward to see it progress.

 

Dave, although early days, if these are the pilot scheme drawings will you be doing the original class 21 variant initially, or will you continue down the class 29 facelift version first?

 

Cheers Paul

[DapolDave]

Hi Paul,

 

It would be logical to go with what we have first so I will 'tentatively' say the 21 first, then while tooling build slides into the tool to allow variants further (excuse the pun) down the line :-)

Cheers

Dave

[sulzer27jd]

The 21 first is the second piece of good news I have read today. The first being the location of drawing that might get this project back up and running. I have a project waiting for some of these please.

 

I would ask that some consideration be given to allowing an easier method of re-wheeling to scale wheels.

 

Cheers

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Looks like I won't be bothering finding and fitting spoked wheelsets to my class - cough -21 hybrid (Hornby bodyshell on a Bach 25 chassis).

[Michael Delamar]

last 24 hours of this thread in pictures.

 

 

 

 

I want but cant have..

 

 

 

then comes Paul's post....Happy.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Michael Delamar

[Daddyman]

All good news. Thanks to the man with the plan(s).

I think this will work out better than trying to convert a class 21/29 from a class 122 (I hope I have understood you correctly, Dapol Dave, when you said your next move on the 21/29 was the 122?).

[DapolDave]

The 21/29 are not allocated production slots.

They were re-allocated to the 122 & 121 project.

 

I will now pencil them into a 'possible' production slot early in 2014.

 

'Possible' as these things take time and I will always offer up the cad/cam designs here for opinions, despite hopefully having the plans.

 

Cheers

Dave

[the-gog]

D6124 and D6127 double heading at Gleneagles in 1962

 

http://www.searchenginelibrary.org.uk/trains/railwaysuk15/Albums/Album1/Source/Diesel__D6124_D6127__21__Gleanagles_62aug.htm

 

from http://www.searchenginelibrary.org.uk/trains/railwaysuk15/album1.htm

 

There's a lot in that album to froth over.

 

RWJ

[andytrains]

D6124 and D6127 double heading at Gleneagles in 1962

 

http://www.searchenginelibrary.org.uk/trains/railwaysuk15/Albums/Album1/Source/Diesel__D6124_D6127__21__Gleanagles_62aug.htm

 

from http://www.searchenginelibrary.org.uk/trains/railwaysuk15/album1.htm

 

There's a lot in that album to froth over.

 

RWJ

They had to double head them as they frequently broke down, so were edging their bets.

Would have looked better with a Black Five hauling both of them dead though!!

Perhaps Dapol will do a BOGOF with these so we can operate them in pairs?

[the-gog]

I reckon Dapol should do unpowered ones, as 50% of the time each loco was dead.

[Michael Delamar]

can I ask Paul (or Dave when he gets the plans) to share a quick snap of the plans, not a copy just a shot from distance as I think it would be interesting to see them.