Glorious NSE Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Interesting that there are a number of comments in this thread saying that the 'Pioneers' were much better than an Adelante (which I agree with), and there are also comments (some from the same people) that an Adelante is better than a 'Voyager' yet a 'Pioneer' was essentially a 'Voyager' with a slightly different interior... Is it simply that the HT interior really did give a much better passenger environment, or is there an anti-Virgin bias in some comments?? No anti-Virgin bias here. I've not used them on HT and have never ridden in a Pioneer or Meridien so can't comment on those, my views are from comparing FGWs to Virgin in the South West, when both units were new. A direct comparison was had one day with a day trip to Plymouth, out on a Voyager, back on an Adelante. Ride - I thought the Voyager had slightly better ride quality, but not so noticeable that it may only have been variation in individual units. Noise - the 180 appeared better insulated, but the engine noise was more as it had the Hydraulic 'thrash' to get it moving. Vibration - the Voyager was better, I presume the electric transmission might be partly responsible Once you get off the techy stuff though... Voyager windows/seats don't line up, lots of seats looking at plastic walls, miniscule legroom on 'red' seats (although not too bad on 'blue' seats) - add the tilt body profile to a seat with no window and they are quite claustrophobic. Adelantes (at least as-built) had all seats apparently spaced to first class specs, seats lined up to the windows, loads of legroom, and the 'squarer' body profile gives a nice airy feel as well. In fact my first impression ever on getting into one was that FGW had shown Alstom a Mk3 FO and told them to go copy that and sling an engine underneath... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I heard that moral isn't too good at HT and, having worked in a company where moral has been very low, it can't be nice for them. Dunno, low morals cans be fun! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 In fact my first impression ever on getting into one was that FGW had shown Alstom a Mk3 FO and told them to go copy that and sling an engine underneath... And there wouldn't be many passengers who would argue against such a request. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 The free market bit is that since the first bout of new trains after privatisation Alstom hasn't sold any trains in the UK (barring a couple of orders for add-on Pendolino's) - Don't forget the superb Class 458 and 460'swhich are all due for some serious re-engineering shortly. Grand Central use Adelantes which have had some work carried out by Railcare - are these better performers? Xerces Fobe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Grand Central use Adelantes which have had some work carried out by Railcare - are these better performers? The staff there don't like them either! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Don't forget the superb Class 458 and 460'swhich are all due for some serious re-engineering shortly. These also had problems. Until fairly recently South West Trains was intent on ditching the 458 and getting more Siemens units instead, and GatEx had to keep some of the 73+Mk2 sets as cover for a long time. The 334s didn't exactly cover themselves with glory either. By the time these fleets were running well, Bombardier and Siemens had taken the big EMU orders and Alstom was practically out of the UK market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Don't forget the superb Class 458 and 460's which are all due for some serious re-engineering shortly. I didn't forget them, the exact same thing happenned with them as happenned with the Adelantes and Coradias. Like I said there was a bout of train orders after privatisation, when Alstom sold the 175, 180, 334, 458 and 460, and NONE of them have had repeat orders. The only Alstom product that has had repeat orders is the Pendolino, which they were tied into making work from the start (and even then has had some shaky times) The 458s were SWTs first new trains after Privatisation, they didn't work right, Alstom didn't support them (at that time) and not surprisingly the repeat order for new trains went to somebody else (Siemens) - what a huge order to throw away! Had Alstom kept their eye on the ball there might not have ever been any 3rd rail Desiros built. Gatwick Express seemed to have much less of a public problem, but IIRC they had 'cover' class 73 sets for an awfully long time after the new trains were delivered...and you'll notice that as soon as Southern could get something else they did... Similarly Scotrail might have been getting an Alstom product built in Washwood Heath instead of a Desiro built in Germany had the 334s been a better product... What has happenned (eventually!) in most of these cases is that the operator has enough clout with the ROSCO to make them get Alstom back to the table and get them involved with making their products work, and most now have improved - IIRC the 458s are now giving very high reliability figures above the slam door units they replaced, whereas at one point they were some of the least reliable MU vehicles in the entire country including many diesel types, no mean feat for an inherently simpler electric train! The difference in the case of the Adelante's is that the small operators don't have that clout. They could threaten to go somewhere else, but with no other options out there that means a new-build of trains which everyone knows they are unlikely to be able to afford (unless they can piggyback onto something else, like SET, when/if that gets moving) Edit - Edwin was posting whilst I was typing, but "what he said!" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I notice Irish Rail are advertising their Mk3s for sale in Modern Railways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I notice Irish Rail are advertising their Mk3s for sale in Modern Railways. I noticed that as well...and with generator vans too so you don't neccesarily need an ETH loco to use them... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 In fact my first impression ever on getting into one was that FGW had shown Alstom a Mk3 FO and told them to go copy that and sling an engine underneath... So it WAS you sitting quietly in the corner taking notes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic17 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I think Woodenhead is on the right lines - bring back the Deltics - 55022 would probably triple passenger numbers in the 1st week! - not that there would be enough seats! If it can pull Alcans to North Blyth and get as far as Fort William - anything can happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted July 29, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 29, 2011 I think Woodenhead is on the right lines - bring back the Deltics - 55022 would probably triple passenger numbers in the 1st week! - not that there would be enough seats! That's a sure way to get rid of the "normal" paying public when the service train is loaded with neds, geeks and gricers............. Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 29, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2011 Voyager windows/seats don't line up, lots of seats looking at plastic walls, miniscule legroom on 'red' seats (although not too bad on 'blue' seats) - add the tilt body profile to a seat with no window and they are quite claustrophobic. Adelantes (at least as-built) had all seats apparently spaced to first class specs, seats lined up to the windows, loads of legroom, and the 'squarer' body profile gives a nice airy feel as well. In fact my first impression ever on getting into one was that FGW had shown Alstom a Mk3 FO and told them to go copy that and sling an engine underneath... Great Western specified that they wanted the interior of the Adelantes to have the same sort of 'feel' and atmosphere as an HST and I think they succeeded in that. The big problem with the Adelantes has always been poor build quality and technical unreliability - it took ages to get them into service and they always gave the impression that you had to be very careful inside them in case parts came off in your hand (which in my experience some things did!) but at least the seats were comfortable and lined up with the windows. Voyager interiors seem to have been designed on the basis of shoving in as many seats as possible and d*mn any feelings the passengers might have about looking out of windows or having sufficient knee room (and I'm only talking about the 1st Class). Hull trains took a much more 'customer' oriented approach with their trains backed up by excellent customer service onboard but I've not sampled them since the 'F' was added to the name. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wobblybob Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 The Iarnród Éireann Mk3s would require re-gauging, but on the positive side they have power operated doors and the Mk3 is an excellent coach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Alstom designed and built them but has (little or) no ongoing interest in sorting the problems out, and it would possibly claim that the defects are neither endemic nor epidemic (i.e. not contractually of their making), but are in fact the result of ten years' inadequate TLC (and they may have a point). Quote here from an Old Oak fitter posting on the wnxx forum... 180s have their main cable runs along the centre line of the vehicle directly over the engine and it's tin exhausts.If you're really lucky the exhaust blow frazzles the cable run Even TLC wouldn't fix that design flaw. You do wonder why is was considered a good idea to route them together in the first place...As other's have already said, the product support from Alstom was a far cry from Siemens, which didn't help matters further. jo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazza 50 015 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I am aware that on todays railway no body wants 110mph trains running on a 125mph railway, BUT years ago when GNER was running class 90`s, due to there excellent acceleration and braking capabilities, on stopping services to Leeds they could easily keep up to the timings that class 91`s and HST`S run at. So why not get rid of the 180`s bring back the class 90`s and mk 3 stock with a DVT which i understand to being in plentyfull supply stored somewhere, use these on the EAST COAST Newark services, of which there are four a day, then freeing up 2 x HST sets that could be used on the Hull services........ I think its very BAD management to run trains in long distance service which are clearly not up to the job, while there are capable trains just sitting around going to waste............................. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 So why not get rid of the 180`s bring back the class 90`s and mk 3 stock with a DVT which i understand to being in plentyfull supply stored somewhere, use these on the EAST COAST Newark services, of which there are four a day, then freeing up 2 x HST sets that could be used on the Hull services........ I think its very BAD management to run trains in long distance service which are clearly not up to the job, while there are capable trains just sitting around going to waste............................. Bad it may be, but as I said earlier, that's looking at it through our rose-tinted specs, not through the eyes of DfT or the railway's major players. Hull doesn't operate the Newark service, so there's no incentive to do what you suggest, no matter how much common sense there is in the idea. As for Old Oak's fitters, they'd be advised to be extremely careful going public on the internet stage regarding matters that will be not only of extreme interest to their employer (First Great Western), but also to their employer's customer (First Hull Trains), and the train owner (Angel). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 As for Old Oak's fitters, they'd be advised to be extremely careful going public on the internet stage regarding matters that will be not only of extreme interest to their employer (First Great Western), but also to their employer's customer (First Hull Trains), and the train owner (Angel). You mean the aforementioned might not be aware of such a design issue? Surely not....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazza 50 015 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 So why not get rid of the 180`s bring back the class 90`s and mk 3 stock with a DVT which i understand to being in plentyfull supply stored somewhere, use these on the EAST COAST Newark services, of which there are four a day, then freeing up 2 x HST sets that could be used on the Hull services........ I think its very BAD management to run trains in long distance service which are clearly not up to the job, while there are capable trains just sitting around going to waste............................. Bad it may be, but as I said earlier, that's looking at it through our rose-tinted specs, not through the eyes of DfT or the railway's major players. Hull doesn't operate the Newark service, so there's no incentive to do what you suggest, no matter how much common sense there is in the idea. I am aware Hull trains dont operate the Newark services, but there is every incentive in making sure the trains used are capable of doing the job. As an employee of East Coast i see far too often the results of a Hull trains train failure and the sometimes severe disruption it causes to Hull trains and East Coast TOC`S. By getting there heads together and realising there is a possible solution everyone ie Hull trains management, East coast management, the DfT and the passengers of both companies will benefit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 You mean the aforementioned might not be aware of such a design issue? Surely not....... They're very well aware, have no doubt about that, but there are plenty of other issues and agendas in play that it's often a good policy not to air too much about your work life on an internet forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Well if the First Gestapo (and I'm sure they have one) are in the habit of tracing members ISP addresses and bounding up to their front doors in the early hours then there's probably something to be concerned about, as it stands, as long as they're careful then I doubt there's much to worry about. It's the sort of thing the RMT would just love to get their teeth into. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Don't think they're having a good day today - last down HT service is running about 40 mins late and I'm sure that only two of the five vehciles were actually powering it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 1, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2011 I am aware Hull trains dont operate the Newark services, but there is every incentive in making sure the trains used are capable of doing the job. As an employee of East Coast i see far too often the results of a Hull trains train failure and the sometimes severe disruption it causes to Hull trains and East Coast TOC`S. By getting there heads together and realising there is a possible solution everyone ie Hull trains management, East coast management, the DfT and the passengers of both companies will benefit. I thought they'd just spent the best part of 18 months (or more?) doing exactly that as far as the timetable structure is concerned. As far as using whatever kit there is available to use it is normally a very simple matter of availability and cost and Hull Trains have little choice but to employ some form of diesel traction owing to the considerable amounts of fresh air above the railway beyond Doncaster/Selby in the direction of Hull. And while they are committed to diesel the capacity situation on the ECML also means that they need 'fast' diesels - it's then up to them and their rolling stock contractor to make sure that said 'fast diesels' do what it says on the box or get a better one (and the financial pressure to do exactly that will be very much upon them if they are delaying anybody else's trains and paying the penalty charges for doing so). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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