brossard Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I expect there are many who are aware, but for those that aren't, there are bogie kits available: MJT: http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt.php#SuspensionSystems-CarriageCompensationUnits These are probably a bit dated but I've used them. I stick cosmetic sides on. Brassmasters: http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/bogie_CUs.htm I haven't tried these. I understand they were designed by Jim Smith-Wright, so should be good. Bill Bedford from Eilleen's Emporium: https://www.eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=288&Itemid=9 I have some of these on order. I've been building a fair few of Bill's kits of late - they all feature springing, and are very good IMO. There is, of course Comet Models. These come with the provision for compensation and whitemetal sides. The thing I've found about plastic bogie kits, like those with the Ratio coach kits, is that they are terribly fragile. I would build a brass kit like one of those above and use the kit sides. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Yes, new bogies needed. Bachmann have gone to town with these coaches but then they fit these dreadful bogies, could it be that Bachmanns idea of 'design clever' had just kicked in with the bogies, just compare them with the Hornby ones, 'chalk and cheese'.... And what about the buffers.... Undersize and 1.5mm too low, how did they manage that? Coach roof in line with Hornby Staniers but the buffers - no. Double checked with buffer height gauge, yep 1.5mm low. I'm getting more disappointed every time I look at them. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2014 Yes, new bogies needed. Bachmann have gone to town with these coaches but then they fit these dreadful bogies, could it be that Bachmanns idea of 'design clever' had just kicked in with the bogies, just compare them with the Hornby ones, 'chalk and cheese'.... And what about the buffers.... Undersize and 1.5mm too low, how did they manage that? Coach roof in line with Hornby Staniers but the buffers - no. Double checked with buffer height gauge, yep 1.5mm low. I'm getting more disappointed every time I look at them. Dave. Best get on with some nice cast bogies then Dave From what Coachmann has said about the superb bodywork on these coaches I reckon some modern whitemetal cast bogies would be just right - nudge, nudge an' all that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Market65 Posted July 9, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2014 Hi. Just to say that I agree about the bogies, but have not yet measured the buffer height - I have several packs of LMS carriage buffers which will be fitted as replacements. Also, today, I've managed to get the coaches coupled closer by sawing the NEM box in half with a razor saw, and then re-fitting the tension-locks(I'm using these couplers since I've too much stock to convert to a different system). The couplings still fit nice and tight in-spite of the change I've made. All the best, Market65. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45609 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Yes, new bogies needed. Bachmann have gone to town with these coaches but then they fit these dreadful bogies, could it be that Bachmanns idea of 'design clever' had just kicked in with the bogies, just compare them with the Hornby ones, 'chalk and cheese'.... And what about the buffers.... Undersize and 1.5mm too low, how did they manage that? Coach roof in line with Hornby Staniers but the buffers - no. Double checked with buffer height gauge, yep 1.5mm low. I'm getting more disappointed every time I look at them. Dave. Dave, I took this photo of a Hornby BTK top and tailed with a Bachmann CK and TK. The portholes are too low altogether and I suspect that is down to the "HO-peless" bogies. As I'm converting to P4 replacement bogies are going to be fitted anyway. Also sprung buffers and working gangways will be needed for close coupling. It should help match things up between the two sources of supply. Cheers....Morgan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iak Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) Call for some work methinks. They look bloody good mind, good source material for fettling? Bring it on. Edited July 9, 2014 by iak 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Alder Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) Some shots of the bogies, and close up of the sides. I bought a couple to see how they looked against my fleet of Comet sided Airfix carcasses, and have been pleased with the flush sided appearance- better than Hornby achieved, at least in the first batch that had a noticeable prismatic effect that required painting of the glazing sprue to hide. As for the bogies- well, I think it has been said already....but the photos will show what they have done. The new and previous Bachmann bogies side by side. Two shots of the bodywork- at normal viewing distances there is little or no sign of the glazing strip as seen here. The body bogie mounting. HTH Edited July 9, 2014 by Ben Alder Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I'm watching this discussion with interest. I don't plan to buy these particular coaches since they are out of era for me. However, I wonder if this signals a design change for Bachmann's future coaches (similar to locos now having 2.17mm (!!??) dia axles). I am slightly troubled that Bachmann seem to have decided to change the accepted norms for bogies and wheels. We don't have a body such as NMRA to "convince" the manufacturers to do things consistently so I suppose we are at their mercy. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) Rather brutal close up showing the difference in heights. Personally I don't think the buffer height shows much at normal viewing distances. It also shows how frail separately fitted handrails can be on plastic stock. Edited July 10, 2014 by JZ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted July 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2014 Regrettably,it seems always to be the case when coupling Hornby and Bachmann coaches together, Why can't we have an agreed standard coupling /buffer height ? Shock,horror no.....do I hear? Nearly always renders Kadees ineffective,which is a shame. Hate those tension locks... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium finelines Posted July 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2014 I am disgusted at the level of negativity in this thread. Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Regrettably,it seems always to be the case when coupling Hornby and Bachmann coaches together, Why can't we have an agreed standard coupling /buffer height ? Shock,horror no.....do I hear? Nearly always renders Kadees ineffective,which is a shame. Hate those tension locks... Coupling height is the same. I've fitted Bemo style couplers to these to these temporarily, but once in fixed rakes a solid bar or similar will be used with Kadees on outer ends of rakes. Personally I quite like them and have a brake on order, but until they are available in maroon, I won't be getting more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I am disgusted at the level of negativity in this thread. Roger Roger, sorry you feel that way. As has been said, the coaches are beautiful but are let down by silly things, mistakes maybe but with a bit of thought could have be avoided. If the new coaches had the likes of the Hornby Stanier bogies on everyone would be over the moon. All the best, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted July 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2014 Coupling height is the same. I've fitted Bemo style couplers to these to these temporarily, but once in fixed rakes a solid bar or similar will be used with Kadees on outer ends of rakes. Personally I quite like them and have a brake on order, but until they are available in maroon, I won't be getting more. I am relieved to hear it...thanks for that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 When Hornby introduced their Stanier coaches, a lot of folk complained they were too expensive. Now 6 years later when Bachmann has produced a range that is considerably cheaper, the experts in coach building and manufacturing are saying they are let down by "silly mistakes".! What I am saying sounds harsh but some people really do need to be more realistic in their assessment of RTR products. I've done mine up this morning (raised the body, shortened the coupling gap, painted interior, sprayed roof black, fitted flexible corridor connections) and it has now taken its place on Greenfield alongside a boatload of handbuilt coaches. Does it look inferior in any way? I don't think so, and at the price I am well chuffed.... 17 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) To be honest, if you're going to have a weakness, it seems much better that it is in an easily-replaceable component such as the bogies, rather than a fundamental error of shape or similar...! Larry's years of experience with the top end of kit built coaches make his comments well worth paying attention to. Edited July 10, 2014 by andyman7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 Maybe its a presumption on my part, but I thought modellers who moved away from 00 gauge were wanting something better, not only in track appearance but in detail as well. Using RTR items is a shortcut for such people, so what is more simple than fitting new EM or P4 bogies to these Bachmann coaches. And seeing as detail is the name of the game, don't settle for two side frames and a top plate.... Go for the latest 3-D bogies with full brake rigging. Bill Bedford does a riveted and a welded LMS bogie, each with correct springs and tie-bars. They are suitable for 00 and EM but I have also fitted P4 wheels in them. I tested them thoroughly being hauled and propelled at speed before standardising on them for my handbuilt coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 When Hornby introduced their Stanier coaches, a lot of folk complained they were too expensive. Now 6 years later when Bachmann has produced a range that is considerably cheaper, the experts in coach building and manufacturing are saying they are let down by "silly mistakes".! What I am saying sounds harsh but some people really do need to be more realistic in their assessment of RTR products. I've done mine up this morning (raised the body, shortened the coupling gap, painted interior, sprayed roof black, fitted flexible corridor connections) and it has now taken its place on Greenfield alongside a boatload of handbuilt coaches. Does it look inferior in any way? I don't think so, and at the price I am well chuffed.... Hi Larry, Maybe it's just me but with these coaches I was expecting something better than what has gone before. Okay, some people are just happy with what they are given but I stand by what I said about 'silly mistakes', you yourself mentioned things like the fire extinguisher compartment and the low ride height and now all the work suggested to improve the breed. I agree with the improvements but we shouldn't have to do half of that. The Hornby Stanier was more expensive but we don't have to do all this remedial work before we start detailing. As regards the statement 'the experts in coach building and manufacturing' Many will find that a bit patronising, who said any of us was an expert in coaches. I do know how to make a bogie work better and last the pace, I've fitted brass bearings to more RTR coaches than I can remember and fitted them with EM or P4 wheelsets, something that is impossible with these latest Bachmann bogies. This is what I am saying, the bogies are a poor, ill thought out design which will force not only EM/P4 people to spend £10 per coach to make bogies to a decent standard but in time OO workers as well when the derailments become too annoying. This is the first coach in a long time I've had to consider this, 10 coach rakes of close coupled Mk1s are happily whizzing around my layout with never a derailment and running with scale wheels in the original bogies so why change them. I've got some of Bill Bedfords coach bogies and indeed before their introduction Bill sent me some preproduction samples to test out and comment on and the coaches so fitted run very well but to be honest, with a mainline layout to stock I can't afford to change every bogie, every wagon, every loco to fully sprung. Not many people can I suspect. And that's not including the time factor. On another post you said ''Maybe its a presumption on my part, but I thought modellers who moved away from 00 gauge were wanting something better, not only in track appearance but in detail as well. Using RTR items is a shortcut for such people.'' Your presumption is only partly true as most modern RTR is so good nowadays that using RTR as a shortcut can cut the time to produce a worthwhile layout with good looking stock, You've done it yourself and in my case it gives me more time to build some 'all singing and all dancing' locos to haul them, (my particular interest). So I say once more - The Bachmann Portholes are beautiful and well detailed coaches let down by the poor anaemic retrograde design of bogies.... Lets agree to disagree if you like. All the best, Dave. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I have now taken delivery of some porthole stock. Overall, the models are good except the bogies. For me the issue is not that the axle lengths are non-standard as I doubt I shall need to change the wheels. They seem very free-running. For me, the issue is that the whole bogie looks too narrow and makes the coach appear top-heavy. The ride height error is also poor but at least that will be easy to correct, not that I should have to do so as the model should be right to start with. The bogies ought not to be difficult to get right, and the same goes for the ride height. Given the huge price hikes, I would expect rather better. These coaches join the line of Bachmann models that are very nearly excellent but are let down by avoidable failings. Another recent example was the Mark I sleeper where half the types have the wrong roof. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) The bogies ought not to be difficult to get right, and the same goes for the ride height. Given the huge price hikes, I would expect rather better. These coaches join the line of Bachmann models that are very nearly excellent but are let down by avoidable failings. I had great hopes for Hornby's Staniers but it was a time when that company was pushing plastic beyond its limit......Door handles fell off along with the flimsy footboards. I think if people expect better then it is worth remembering the price of Hornby's Staniers, Thompsons and Gresleys when they were available. There'll be no handles or footboards falling off a Bachmann. Edited July 10, 2014 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefrk Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I had great hopes for Hornby's Staniers but it was a time when that company was pushing plastic beyond its limit......Door handles fell off along with the flimsy footboards. I think if people expect better then it is worth remembering the price of Hornby's Staniers, Thompsons and Gresleys when they were available. There'll be no handles or footboards falling off a Bachmann. I've just had a look Larry and you're right, the handles are all still there, but of-course it's because they're all moulded on.... Admittedly one doesn't notice this from the normal viewing distance though. The stepboards I'll reserve judgement on for now or until I get the coaches running on my EM layout, LOL. All the best, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted July 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2014 Well I've taken delivery of my first porthole coach, a composite, the brake coach must still be at sea! I'm happy . Frankly I'm not at all bothered by the bogies and the difference in hight pales into insignificance compared to the space between coaches caused by the tension locks. I'm sorry they've gone up in price. congratulations to Hattons for delivering mine at the preorder price of £ 24 and that was still cheaper than the much discounted Hornby 3rd I bought at Model Rail Scotland for £25 ( a bargain!) I reckon should the Hornby Staniers ever re appear they will be well north of £40 and probably closer to £50. Thank goodness I've now got all the ones I need! So for me it's a resounding well done Bachmann and Hattons! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 I bought a 57ft corridor third and a 60ft corridor composite today for £36 each. I'll mix them with two Hornby Stanier coaches as an outer suburban on Sumatra Road. They'll look nice with 10000 on the front. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 The carmine I generally use is as close to Bachmann's shade as makes no difference when applied over a dark brown undercoat or even maroon. But when applied over cream, it is rather bright. Obviously it isn't viable to paint a the bottom half of a coach brown then re-mask up to give it a coat of carmine, so I wish to mix a colour that looks the same whether it is all over a coach or just the bottom half. I spent 1½ hours this afternoon mixing a cream to match the colour on the Bachmann 'Porthole' compo, but when it came to Bachmann's carmine red, I gave up after 10 minutes. I need the name of the closest car colour if anyone knows it please........There is a list of car colours suitable for BR somewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Godfrey Glyn Posted July 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2014 I've just had a look Larry and you're right, the handles are all still there, but of-course it's because they're all moulded on.... Admittedly one doesn't notice this from the normal viewing distance though. The stepboards I'll reserve judgement on for now or until I get the coaches running on my EM layout, LOL. All the best, Dave I think that's called 'design clever' - Bachmann have been doing it for ages but were clever enough not to point it out! Godfrey Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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