Kirkby Luneside (Original): End of the line....

[Rowsley17D]

That PVA looks not bad, not bad at all Jeff, Perhaps a wee bit shallow, but I could live with that, what about you? Was this full strength PVA or let down stuff a la cream? If you are happy then should the cess ash etc go down first or the ballast?

[uax6]

That PVA looks not bad, not bad at all Jeff, Perhaps a wee bit shallow, but I could live with that, what about you? Was this full strength PVA or let down stuff a la cream? If you are happy then should the cess ash etc go down first or the ballast?

 

I would lay the cess first, then the ballast shoulder will form naturally over the top of it. You'll have to take a look in a lot of pictures of your era to see what the cess actually was formed of, and how the shoulder met it though....

 

 

Andy G

[Physicsman]

Right Andy - you suggested an additional PVA and more ballast - so here goes. What d o you reckon now, Jonathan?

 

And Chris - I put a first layer on the far side - just for you!!

 

 

 

Jeff

 

EDIT: Sorry about the lack of detail - it's gone 10pm and the natural lighting is poor. I'll re-submit some pics of this in the morning. Unlike my previous layouts, this technique seems to allow the individual grains to stand apart - rather than the "dropper method conglomeration"!

Edited July 4, 2013 by Physicsman

[Physicsman]

That PVA looks not bad, not bad at all Jeff, Perhaps a wee bit shallow, but I could live with that, what about you? Was this full strength PVA or let down stuff a la cream? If you are happy then should the cess ash etc go down first or the ballast?

 

It was full strength PVA, painted on with a fine paintbrush. I'd say it would take me about 10 minutes to paint a metre of track - then another ten for a top up. So it's not that bad.

 

And I think it looks quite good.

 

I'd put the cess down first. Probably using Woodland Scenics cinders or iron ore (fine, 2mm) - the S&C cesses always seem quite dark to me.

 

Jeff

[robmcg]

Excellent stuff Jeff I really admire the ballast in last night's pictures.  Won't even need to edit any photos of your be-grimed WD 2-8-0 with 300 tons on exiting the tunnel under the adqueduct!

[Alister_G]

That second layer looks the bees whatsits! (or is it dog's knees, never get that right).

 

As you can imagine, I have been following this ballasting malarky with a keen interest, as the time is fast approaching when I'll have to do the same.

 

Nice, and not a clump in sight.

[Physicsman]

That second layer looks the bees whatsits! (or is it dog's knees, never get that right).

 

As you can imagine, I have been following this ballasting malarky with a keen interest, as the time is fast approaching when I'll have to do the same.

 

Nice, and not a clump in sight.

 

Hi Al.

 

I was quite happy after the first layer, but the second layer gives the deep-ballast effect and generates a kind of pseudo shoulder to either side of the rails.

 

I have to admit that, as ever with the use of PVA, the ballast is set like concrete. But it looks ok, so I'm happy I at least have a method I can use.

 

And none of those crappy lumpy bits.

 

I can ballast the cutting/bridge areas now - well, once I order the cinders for the cess....so maybe Monday.

 

Jeff

[jukebox]

Cheers Jason. I know this isn't a mutual admiration society, but coming from you those comments mean a lot.

 

Jeff

 

Is this the right room for an arguement?    Whoops, wrong room!

 

Hi Al.

 

I was quite happy after the first layer, but the second layer gives the deep-ballast effect and generates a kind of pseudo shoulder to either side of the rails.

 

I have to admit that, as ever with the use of PVA, the ballast is set like concrete. But it looks ok, so I'm happy I at least have a method I can use.

 

And none of those crappy lumpy bits.

 

I can ballast the cutting/bridge areas now - well, once I order the cinders for the cess....so maybe Monday.

 

Jeff

 

Jeff;

 

I would recommend you have a browse through period photos of the S&C, to be sure this is the look you want to achieve.

 

I say that, because I know in looking at the NER, typical track in steam days did not look the same as it does now - the ballast under the sleepers was not as deep, and in many places, the ends of the sleepers were visible... just like your single layered example. So you've shown me a way forward, regardless of what you choose to do!

 

It may well be the "deep" is correct for the S&C, or even that you prefer it that way anyway - as always, Rule 1 is in force.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

[robmcg]

I'm not sure but the ballasted track is going to create a wholly different 'sound signature' for passing trains? 

 

Scot is right about earlier and/or different railway ballast thickness and shoulders, but what looks right probably is right.

Edited July 4, 2013 by robmcg

[Physicsman]

As promised, a couple of pics taken in better light:

 

 

 

Jeff

 

 

[Physicsman]

Is this the right room for an arguement?    Whoops, wrong room!

 

 

Jeff;

 

I would recommend you have a browse through period photos of the S&C, to be sure this is the look you want to achieve.

 

I say that, because I know in looking at the NER, typical track in steam days did not look the same as it does now - the ballast under the sleepers was not as deep, and in many places, the ends of the sleepers were visible... just like your single layered example. So you've shown me a way forward, regardless of what you choose to do!

 

It may well be the "deep" is correct for the S&C, or even that you prefer it that way anyway - as always, Rule 1 is in force.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

 

Glad to be of assistance. I'm pleased that I now have a way forward myself - I'll have to look at the photographic evidence and try to mimic what I see.

 

A bit of study is required before anything goes beyond the experimental stages.

 

Jeff

[Rowsley17D]

Hi Jeff, that looks much better to me, a pity it cannot be achieved with Copydex, but there you go. As to an earlier comment about NER ballast, I seem to remember that they used a lot of ash/cinders for ballast, so this would account for sleeper ends showing etc. Very happy to be corrected over this point.

[The Stationmaster]

That definitely looks better Jeff.  Don't forget that the S&C was very much a 'mainline' back in that era so it would be well ballasted (possiby Shap granite but it might have been limestone) with a slight shoulder beyond the sleeper ends - study pics and you will see what I, and others, mean.  The cess probably would have been cinders back then but as it was in a mountainous area stone chippings would have been cheaply available so might well have been used or the material known as 'three eighths to dust' (the sieving size) so pretty fine in 4mm scale.  

 

The cess would have been clean and well maintained as well and it might also be worth checking pics to see if there were any drains in the cess, especially near tunnel mouths and don't forget there might well also have been drainage grids (called 'catch pits) in some places in the six foot.  Incidentally I would be more inclined to ballast the track first - against a masking tape edge then do the cess taking it up to the pre-formed ballast edge.  In most cases on decently maintained routes there was a clear demarcation between cess and running line top ballast - as pics will show.  And all likely to be kept and look 'neat' - the messy overgrown lineside was something which came along post steam in most places.

 

The picture below is Western Region but clearly shows the delineation between running line ballast and what lies between the lines (in your cases the running line ballast level would probably continue across the six foot as the S&C was built as a narrow gauge line, in this pic the track has been narrowed at some past cataclysmic time leaving a wider interval between lines).

 

 

This second pic clearly shows the older style of ballast shoulder - again it is WR but as its a branch line it's probably on a par with the mainlines on some lesser railways  What looks like a very wide cess is the result of the line being singled 3 years earlier.

 

Edited July 5, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[92220]

Hi Jeff

 

I'm sure you are on the right lines here. From my own experience of ballasting, I'd add a couple of bits I've learned:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52339-camden-shed/?p=735637

 

(Should link direct to the relevant post on p2 of Camden Shed....)

 

Paint the PVA neat and reasonably thickly

Vacuum the excess ballast soon after applying - only 5 or so minutes

Then go along with a cocktail stick or bent nose forceps to tidy up along and around the sleeper edges

Leave to set

 

Credit to Captain Kernow and Gordon S for leading the way here.

 

Iain

[Physicsman]

Thanks for the info. Iain. I'd forgotten you were one of the Capt. Kernow/Gordon S devotees!

 

I notice you've ballasted before weathering the track. I'll spray the track to muck up the sleepers and rust-paint the rails before the ballast goes in. Anyway, we'll just see how it goes!!

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

Mike, as usual, you are a mine of prototypical information!

 

I've been looking at dozens of S&C photos. They all have very neatly ballasted - somewhere between deep and shallow - track, sleeper ends showing into the shoulder and a darkish cess.

 

These photos, taken in the mid 60s by Dave (unravelled) show the idea:

 

 

 

Jeff

[Andrew P]

Don't kid yourself Jeff, you'll get offers galore when the time is right. Even in unfinished state, it's better than 75% of the layouts that appear in the monthlies (MRJ excepted, for obvious reasons).

 

Mr York will come a-knocking, I'm sure of it.

Jeff, Jason is right, If mine are good enough then I am Darn sure yours will be one of those classics. I detect another Tetleys, Borchester, Dewsbury Midland coming along. Don't put your craftsmanship down as the Viaduct alone would make an article in its own right, and then another on the walling, the Aquaduct, etc, etc, you must keep pics of the build and DO NOT SHRINK THEM DOWN, do coppies if you need to put them on here.

 

I have had yesterday and this morning with my Mum as she had her Cateract done yesterday and I stayed with her last night, (NO WI FI). so I am just catching up.

 

Bodgit

[Andrew P]

Can we have shots of the horrors as well please, it'll make us all fell better that even Jeff has disasters!

 

Andy g

To True, hahaaaa

 

Bodgit

[Andrew P]

As promised, a couple of pics taken in better light:

 

100_3583.JPG

 

100_3581.JPG

 

Jeff

Wont the trains fall off when they hit the YELLOW TAPE?

 

It had to be Bodgit again

[Physicsman]

Afternoon Andy.

 

Hope your mum is ok. You certainly got your priorities right - she's far more important than the railway.

 

I've got copies and back-ups of everything I've done. I've spent the morning playing with my new Patriot (sound) and Jubilee. Then I've started to thoroughly clean the house....and the cleaner has packed in. A new one tomorrow, I think - the old one has been objecting to all the railway rubbish for a number of years!

 

Btw - yellow tape? They are S&C buffer stops!!   

 

Jeff

[Andrew P]

Afternoon Andy.

 

Hope your mum is ok. You certainly got your priorities right - she's far more important than the railway.

 

I've got copies and back-ups of everything I've done. I've spent the morning playing with my new Patriot (sound) and Jubilee. Then I've started to thoroughly clean the house....and the cleaner has packed in. A new one tomorrow, I think - the old one has been objecting to all the railway rubbish for a number of years!

 

Btw - yellow tape? They are S&C buffer stops!!   

 

Jeff

I TOUGHT DAY WERE GREAT WESTERN, hahahaaa sorry Polly.

 

Bodgit

Edited July 5, 2013 by Andrew P

[uax6]

Jeff, certainly does give the deep ballast result, which is great!

 

Re your photos of S&C track. Note that the one at Dent is the outside of super-elevated track, so most of the ballast is provideing the cant, whether the rest of the track there is like that I don't know, just be careful!

 

Andy G

[Physicsman]

Jeff, certainly does give the deep ballast result, which is great!

 

Re your photos of S&C track. Note that the one at Dent is the outside of super-elevated track, so most of the ballast is provideing the cant, whether the rest of the track there is like that I don't know, just be careful!

 

Andy G

 

Thanks Andy. You are right about the canting.

 

Here are 2 more of Dave's lovely photos, this time of a straight section of line. The track appears fairly deep ballasted, extending across both main lines (as pointed out by Mike). The cess on the left of the photos is distinctly dark - amongst the point rodding...

 

 

 

Jeff

[robmcg]

I think I could make the second pic even more 'real'. If one was to model the right hand main line like that, people would say it looks too toy-like!

Edited July 6, 2013 by robmcg

[Andrew P]

I am suprised just how deep that ballast looks, that is amazing.

 

Bodgit