Kirkby Luneside (Original): End of the line....

[Physicsman]

Evening Ray, thanks for that. I think I'll just have to get a few and have a play. Something like this will be essential when I build the goods yard.... nightmare shunting with tension lock couplings in my opinion!

 

I know Andy is a great advocate of Kadees, so he'll no doubt have something to say later!

 

Jeff

[tender]

Oh, and I forgot to mention the Dapol NEM socket, which seems to have a droop of its own on most of my examples. Nothin a spot of super glue doesn't cure.

[Donw]

With all that realsitic modelling Jeff I thought you might go for three links . I did use them in EM years ago and have stuck with them in 0. It does rather slow down shunting quite useful on small layouts.

Don

[robmcg]

Cheers Peter.

 

I got one and had to buy a second. Super model. A 3F will be heading my way shortly.

 

Anyway, how are you going to accommodate 4Fs on Llanbourne? Or is a new layout in the offing?

 

Jeff

 

 

Aha!   I have weathered 3F too!  Together we will rule the world.   Or would that be too Fowlerish?

[jukebox]

*snip*

 

Btw - just to open a side discussion. I read the article on Kadees by Nigel Burkin in Hornby Mag today. Informative to me, as I've never used them. Simple question - is it as simple as plugging them into your NEM pockets or is there a catch?

 

*snip*

 

Jeff

 

Simple answer, Jeff? No.

 

I admit more than a little bemusement at the fuss Kadees seem to generate here on RMWeb.  There's a fairly long thread about "what height should you set your Kadees at with UK stock" which, IMHO, undermines one of the key planks of a coupling systems success: compatability.  Rightly, or wrongly for UK outline, Kadee have a standard height, and the tools and gauges to help get it right.  Once you move away from that, you risk turning your Kadee stock into unique-to-your-layout pariahs.

 

But there's a reason this question has some confusion around it - and one you need consider: [As I understand it, the problem has come about because] manufacturers of British outline stock have not strictly adhered to NMRA rules for setting the height of the NEM pockets the Kadees clip into, and also the tolerences on those pockets, and as a result, what should be as simple as "clip and fit" leads to knuckles that are some way out of alignment, or couplers that droop like a brewer's best friend. 

 

Luckily, Kadee recognised many years ago that because of the precision needed to make thier product work, "one coupling won't fit all" (although if you are a US outline modeller, the #5 apparently comes pretty close!), so what they also did was produce "underset" and "overset" knuckles:

 

Notice how the knuckle height remains the same? It's the mounting height of the box that is changing. That helps get under a UK steam era buffer beam.  And then these come in a varety of lengths of shanks, so you can mount the "draft box" back under the body of the wagon or the coach.

 

I'm sure this discussion will evolve and revolve a little here, but I'll leave you with my 2p worth:

 

Kadees need to be set up properly, or they will frustrate you. It's worth the effort to do it carefully, and right, just once.

If you do use them, make sure you buy the Kadee pliers to bend the trip pin up, and the Kadee height gauge (assuming you do follow their standard!)

Some stock will be as easy as clip and walk away.  Others - esp some locos - will be a challenge.

You won't need Kadees on every piece of stock - think about what and why you need to shunt, and start with that.

Make the equivalent of a Triang/Dublo converter wagon - with a Kadee on one end and a Tension lock on the other - so you can mix your stock (I have a BG(?) that I use behind my locos right now to do this.

 

Some people don't like them, others can never get them to work, but when you crack it, it's pretty special to be able to stop a train over the magnet, push back, and the pull away leaving it behind, all hands free - or trundle straight over the top, like it isn't there. Go for it, I say!

 

Cheers

 

Scott

 

edited for typos

 

PS Will try and get a video up later showing how easy Kadees can be to use - when they do work!  I'm at about 95% reliability, but improving...

 

Edited September 14, 2013 by jukebox

[robmcg]

In addition to the merits of Kadees and such, another Leeds-Royston-Normanton 4F appears on a train of mineral empties.. a bit more of a breeze this day, reminding us of the modest flows of invigorating air which come down off the fells.

 

43968 this time, which wasn't withdrawn until November 1965.

 

Could someone please tell me if West Riding 4Fs usually had coal-rail tenders? I have also just noticed that the wedges in the chairs are on the wrong side of the chair for downhill track, but no worries, it ought to be flat-bottom rail with the late crest engine anyway...  maybe. I had better keep taking the pills.

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2013 by robmcg

[Jason T]

Looking at where the goods yard is situated on KL, I would say that you have little choice but to go with automatic couplings as you will forever be leaning over the layout to uncouple manually.

 

The only Kadees I have used are the ones I fitted to my two DMU's so they could be close coupled and because they are easier to couple/uncouple than the Roco type they are supplied with. Even then, to get the desired distance between cars, I had to use different lengths; short on one and medium on the other.

 

Unless you go down the handmade route of AJ's, etc. (which do look great but are supposedly fiddly to put together and set up) then I reckon that you will need to go down the Kadee route although you could always set up your wagons in strings of three or four with Kadeed on the ends and three links on between.......

[ChrisN]

Update:

 

I'm currently building more cross-walling, heading in the direction of the viaduct, having modified the fell profile to be more wall-friendly!

 

I've also planned out (in outline) the build of a delapidated barn structure, as in Scott/Jason's pics earlier in the thread and the articles in BRM last year. I'll be using 3mm ply coated in DAS, with subsequent scribing. As a change from walling, I'm hoping to make a start on this during next week.

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

As I lay awake last night trying to gey back to sleep my thoughts turned to modelling and it struck me that the delapidated barn that you are going to build will have no roof so the inside will be quite obvious.  If you use ply and DAS then you will need to cover both sides of the ply and also scribe it as they were rough structures with no plaster.

 

Sorry, I will try and think of something else next time.

[P.C.M]

Cheers Peter.

 

I got one and had to buy a second. Super model. A 3F will be heading my way shortly.

 

Anyway, how are you going to accommodate 4Fs on Llanbourne? Or is a new layout in the offing?

 

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

No new layout at the moment, I have just always liked the 4Fs I have a painted up and weathered Airfix one in my display case, it's  44422 an old S&D regular.

 

Cheers Peter.

[jukebox]

Jeff;

 

This should whet your appetite: hands free shunting.

 

http://youtu.be/fk2U2O6Q6qk

 

Cheers

 

Scott

 

(apologies for the curse of the engineer's spelling!)         

Edited September 14, 2013 by jukebox

[Andrew P]

     The Great Kadee Debate

 

O.K. I have been away for over 24 hours looking after my mother after an Eye operation, I have had no internet access for my Flip Flop but I have been watching the Kadee debate with interest on my Phone.

 

Now back home I thought it was about time I threw my hat in the air and see who shoots it down first.

 

So Firstly the myths,

1, There is no one Kadee to fit every body's needs and requirements.

2, Kadee are not suitable for all stock.

3, Kadee are not suitable for all layouts.

4, Kadee are not 100% reliable.

5, I am sure there are more

 

So why then do I like them?

1, I like the flexibility.

2, Close coupling.

3, 99% reliability in operation.

4, Realistic Shunting.

5, Ease of fitting.

 

Next forget specialist tools. I use normal pointy nose pliers to adjust my tails.

 

But a Kadee height gauge is essential.

 

With this Bachmann Van you will see I have removed the NEM coupling and fitted a No 5 gearbox, the reason is that it does give a better height stability when put in and out of the transportation box for shows with Glen Roy. You will also see a B2 and an arrow, This is wagon 2 in the B set, and the arrow denotes the way it faces on the layout, this gives me the BEST CHANCE  of it working first time at shows.

 

Next up a Lima CCT, simple, cut off the coupling and fit a No 5.

 

Now a Bachmann Mk 1 Coach using a No 20, I have a 18 on the facing coach for close coach to coach coupling but the 20 at each end couples to Diesels perfect.

 

A Bachmann LWB Van, I have cut away the front of the Chassis to fit the No 5 but in reality it could do with a 1mm shim as it is a tadge  high.

 

And as you can see with Kadee's you get about a 1/4 inch between buffers as opposed to about 1/2 inch with the OLD FASHIONED hook and bar.

 

And finally a Heljan Class 27 with a No 20 in the NEM pocket

 

And on Glen Roy.

 

 

 

           So to sum up; To Kadee or Not To Kadee

On my Last Great Project Layout I will probably use a mix of Kadee and either 3 link or tension lock.

Freight and Passenger Stock

On freight that I want to shunt I will have Kadee on most or all of the Vans / Wagons, i.e. three oil tanks would only need a Kadee at each end.

On through freight, such as a long Van or Coal train that will just run through without shunting, but may have a Loco change I will only have Kadee's at the front end of the train so that I can change Locos. The same applies to Passenger Train formations, if you want to drop off a Parcels Van then fit it and the corresponding coach with a Kadee.

Locos

With both Steam and Diesel Mainline Locos I will only fit Kadees to the Tender end and super detail the front's, this will enable me to change stock in both the fiddle yard and on the visible section of the layout.

Shunting Locos such as the Jinty, 08 etc will have Kadee at both ends, this may also apply to the odd Std4 or Super D etc for Tender first running and a bit of Yard Shunting.

 

So my hat is in the AIR, anyone got a gun?

 

Bodgit

Edited September 14, 2013 by Andrew P

[Andrew P]

Aha!   I have weathered 3F too!  Together we will rule the world.   Or would that be too Fowlerish?

I have 2 weathered 3F's HAHAHHAHA

 

GREEDY BODGY

[Physicsman]

Hi folks.

 

I've been in absentia so far today owing to another walk/climb in the Lakes. Blencathra today.... set out from Teesside at 5am, started walk at 6.45am and completed the perambulations by noon. If you know Halls Fell ridge, it's quite spectacular - and the weather was excellent.

 

Anyway, before I read all today's posts - here is a sample of today's pics, including myself with a few stone walls!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jeff

 

 

[Andrew P]

Hi Jeff, I can't see the Helicopter that got you up there :no: :no: it must be behind the camera

 

Bodgy

 

EDIT= = nice fluffy clouds and some great photography mate :locomotive:

Edited September 14, 2013 by Andrew P

[Physicsman]

Thanks very much for all the input on Kadees. Ask a simple question, receive a deluge of useful, practical information.

 

I need to digest the details, but it certainly looks like I'll be getting some to have a "play" before too long has past. Then I think the era of shunting on KL may begin.

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

Jeff,

As I lay awake last night trying to gey back to sleep my thoughts turned to modelling and it struck me that the delapidated barn that you are going to build will have no roof so the inside will be quite obvious.  If you use ply and DAS then you will need to cover both sides of the ply and also scribe it as they were rough structures with no plaster.

 

Sorry, I will try and think of something else next time.

 

Blimey Chris, I didn't realise I was having such an effect upon the readers of this thread!!

 

I wonder what Dr Freud would have said?

 

Anyway, thanks for pointing out a VERY important detail. The type of barn (remnant) illustrated in Scott's post (8412) certainly has no roof - though I may model a part (delapidated) roof - so your comment is brilliant. I'd probably not have thought of it.

 

Jeff

[ChrisN]

Blimey Chris, I didn't realise I was having such an effect upon the readers of this thread!!

 

I wonder what Dr Freud would have said?

 

Anyway, thanks for pointing out a VERY important detail. The type of barn (remnant) illustrated in Scott's post (8412) certainly has no roof - though I may model a part (delapidated) roof - so your comment is brilliant. I'd probably not have thought of it.

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

All sorts of stuff pops into my head in the middle of the night.  That is one reason why I hate making a decision before I have slpet on it.

 

Love the pictures of your walk.  We've just had a short walk around our local pond in Bracknell, not quite the same.

[Removed a/c]

How did you get a #20 in a MK 1 and the Class 27 and it be at the correct height Andy? I thought the NEM pockets were to high on these? It is on my MK1s and Heljan 58 

 

Most of the stock I have purchased though has had NEM pockets at the correct height so has been a simple matter of choosing an 18, 19 or 20 Kadee. It appears that Bachmann are fixing the NEM height with every new release or re-release of older models. Hornby I am not sure of, they seem to have a huge hodge podge of coupler styles. 

Edited September 14, 2013 by thebritfarmer

[Andrew P]

Hi TBF, I have had no problems at all, I have, as I have shown a No 20 in the coaches and also in my Bachamnn 20 and 25's, and Heljan 26 and 27's,all work fine on the coaches and 99% of the wagons.

 

See Video above.

 

Bodge, (and I didn't)

[Donw]

Nice walk Jeff probably a bit higher than my normal daily morning walk ( up to nearly a 1000ft on Exmoor).

Regarding Kaydee's no end of US modeller's use them so they are obviously reliable when set up properly hence Andy's comment about the height guage. They are not the only option. Probably the best demo I have seen of hands free shunting was on Bollingrove 2mm using DG couplings but the layout had been built by Nick Dearnly the D of DG. MArtin Brent's Arcadia in 0 gauge used AJs to good effect. So there are other choices but possibly Kaydee's is the easiest for RTR stock in 4mm. Another option is Dinghams but they do seem to work best when handed which I find a pain. I like three links but you do need to make sure the yard is on the operator side for ease of use. Another one that is quite good is Linc-ups but they don't seem to be available at present. Other than three links none are prototypical for traditional uk stock but if darkened they do not intrude too much. Personally I think if you are using Kaydee's why not fit them to all stock as different types on one layout stands out more to my eyes than them being all alike.

Don 

[robmcg]

Jeff the skies in your photos above are far too blue. Nobody would believe that colour as a backdrop. Not realistic.

[Andrew P]

Jeff the skies in your photos above are far too blue. Nobody would believe that colour as a backdrop. Not realistic.

Do you want me to get the White Primmer out mate. :no: :no:

 

hahhahaha

 

Bodgit

[Physicsman]

Do you want me to get the White Primmer out mate. :no: :no:

 

hahhahaha

 

Bodgit

 

Nature got the white primer out, Andy! As the sun got to work on the moist ground, huge plumes of mist started to rise, producing a white out. Just like your Halfords spray can!

 

OK, but when stuck on the ridge, 300 feet from the top, it can make visibility a little tricky....

 

 

 

The blue skies were gorgeous though.

 

Almost every prototype possible available today!!

 

Jeff

[robmcg]

I thought Yorkshire was all dark satanic mills anyway.  A neighbour of mine, lovely man, in his 60s was a motor mechanic from Bradford, and when he was retired and I was building lots of car engines, he gave me his ball peen 14oz hammer, beautiful it was..     but the thread drift police will get me.

Edited September 14, 2013 by robmcg

[Donw]

Jeff the skies in your photos above are far too blue. Nobody would believe that colour as a backdrop. Not realistic.

Even so the top is noticeably bluer than lower down it is just that the horizon proper is a long way down.

Don