Semaphore Signals - 4mm Scale (Mainly)

[Michael Edge]

Hi Steve

 

Don't know if this helps but this is the signalling diagram from Peterill Bridge Junction and it seems as though the signals in question are at the far left of the diagram.

 

That's a later diagram than the layout period, after the line from Upperby had been singled. 

[Michael Edge]

I don't think the distant on the line from Bog Junction could physically move to the off position so I'm sure it was fixed. This signal is mounted as low as possible presumably for sighting reasons under St Nicholas bridge, not too far away and round a curve as well.

After going through all the above both the distants on the one from Citadel will have work, the panel will have to have an additional switch - one switch to pull of the home signal, distants conditional on the setting of the points in the storage yard and another to distinguish between Newcastle and Leeds trains.

[Steve Hewitt]

How does the slotting work........?

 

I can see there appear to be two bearings containing weight bars, one above the other on the "Splitting Distant".

I understand how a "normal" distant is slotted on an "ordinary" signal, and I can represent that quite easily on a 4mm model.

 

In this case, are there two weight bars attached to the Stop arm, working in a "co-acting" manner?

Each one could then be slotted with one of the Distants.

The Distants in turn being interlocked in the Petteril Bridge Junction Box, so only one could be "Off".

 

Advice from one of our "Professionals" will be much appreciated.

 

Steve.

[LNERGE]

There will be two drop off bars, one for each distant, below each will be be the weight bar back to the lever in the sgnalbox. Between these will be the weight bar for the stop arm. Each drop off bar will have a controlling piece that will cover it's own weight bar and the stop arm weight bar. The controlling piece is an odd shape and kind of mirror each other in the way they engage in with the stop arm weight bar.

[beast66606]

 

The Distants in turn being interlocked in the Petteril Bridge Junction Box, so only one could be "Off".

 

 

The distants will be interlocked with the stop signals in PBJ, and of course the stop signals will be interlocked with the points meaning only 1 stop signal can be cleared at a time, and therefore only 1 distant.

[LNERGE]

My description applies to the currently available slots that are manufactured to order. 

 

I would say your slot is two standard Eastern Region slots, one above the other. The stop arm will be attached straight through and up to the stop arm on both slots. When the stop arm lever is pulled two weight bars, one above the other, and the arm operate. Each distant weight bar is attached in the conventional manner and one drop off arm on each slot will go to each distant arm. You can only pull one distant lever at a time so only the correct distant will drop off when the stop arm is pulled.

[Steve Hewitt]

My description applies to the currently available slots that are manufactured to order. 

 

I would say your slot is two standard Eastern Region slots, one above the other. The stop arm will be attached straight through and up to the stop arm on both slots. When the stop arm lever is pulled two weight bars, one above the other, and the arm operate. Each distant weight bar is attached in the conventional manner and one drop off arm on each slot will go to each distant arm. You can only pull one distant lever at a time so only the correct distant will drop off when the stop arm is pulled.

Thanks,

 

I think that is what I was trying to describe in my earlier post.

 

Steve.

[Jon Fitness]

Good job it's only for a model railway Steve!!      

JF

[LNERGE]

I had to order one for a stop arm controlling a distant and an uncontrolled call on arm once. As it didn't conform to what was in the catalogue it ended up in an epic struggle and a visit to the factory.

[beast66606]

Good job it's only for a model railway Steve!!      

JF

 

If a jobs worth doing ...

[Martin Shaw]

Funnily enough I was discussing London Road Junction with another member recently. At that time I was working on the WCML mod based in Carlisle and No7 was a favoured evening time waster, a most welcoming signalman and plenty of tea. I can't pretend I know the type of distant arm on the goods lines, it was I realise 45 years ago, however I'm almost certain it would have been fixed. If a working distant had been required then it would have to have the same appearance as the passenger lines i.e a splitting distant. I think if it were otherwise the signal sighting committee would have rejected the proposal. Just a thought but relevant I think.

Regards

Martin

[Suzie]

Looking at what must be a low speed junction where the goods line ends, would a train on the goods line be going fast enough by the time it got to Petteril junction to have to worry about different speeds on the two routes? That is the only information being provided by having splitting distants.

 

Clearly a working distant has value because an unfitted goods train even at 20mph will probably be having to slow already in order to stop at Petteril junction because it is so close, and would not necessarily want to slow too much, especially if there might be a rising gradient beyond and the line speed is good for 40mph+ as would be suggested by the provision of splitting distants on the passenger line.

[Martin Shaw]

 

Looking at what must be a low speed junction where the goods line ends, would a train on the goods line be going fast enough by the time it got to Petteril junction to have to worry about different speeds on the two routes? That is the only information being provided by having splitting distants.

 

Suzie

With respect, I don't think you have fully grasped how this works. Splitting distants are only provided where there is minimal speed differentiation between the two (or more) routes. You cannot directly infer a speed from splitting distants. At the time, and possibly still today, there was a speed restriction through Petteril Bridge Junction of 20mph, so any train, goods or otherwise had to slow for that. The splitting distants for the passenger lines are purely to provide advance directional information and also to forewarn the driver that he doesn't have to stop at Petteril Bridge. The passenger lines had a maximum speed restriction of 50mph from Carlisle to Durranhill and onto the NER at Corby Gates. The goods lines had a speed restriction of 20mph, but since Petteril Bridge to London Road was only 500yds even allowing a clear run through the fixed distant recognised this and provided adequate braking distance at that speed.

 

Regards

Martin

[Suzie]

... At the time, and possibly still today, there was a speed restriction through Petteril Bridge Junction of 20mph, so any train, goods or otherwise had to slow for that. ...

 

 

splitting distants were not uncommon in semaphore days, used when both routes had a limit of at least 40mph - and sometimes when they didn't !

 

So this is one where they didn't. Sorry to hijack the thread. I am learning an awful lot from it! Thank you. Splitting distant dolls will hopefully be in JMRI when I get round to sorting it now I know they exist and where they go.

[Martin Shaw]

Asking questions is the way to find things out, apologies not needed.

 

Regards

Martin

[beast66606]

 If a working distant had been required then it would have to have the same appearance as the passenger lines i.e a splitting distant. I think if it were otherwise the signal sighting committee would have rejected the proposal. Just a thought but relevant I think.

 

Not necessarily but in this case it's probable - however as I said above, until evidence is provided I remain open minded - Ive seen cases where goods distants are different from the mains because of the lower speeds involved.

 

So this is one where they didn't. Sorry to hijack the thread. I am learning an awful lot from it! Thank you. Splitting distant dolls will hopefully be in JMRI when I get round to sorting it now I know they exist and where they go.

 

Remember that all the stop signals relevant to the distant need clearing, so if the junction had a starter then the junction home and the starter would need to be cleared before the distant.

[Grovenor]

.........different speeds on the two routes? That is the only information being provided by having splitting distants.

 

Splitting distants are only provided where there is minimal speed differentiation between the two (or more) routes.

Neither of these is really entirely correct. The signal arms as such tell you nothing about the speeds, they show the route that has been cleared at the junction ahead, and the respective heights are meant to show the relative importance of the route, which often but not neccessarily corresponded with the speed. The actual speeds came from learning the route and, of course could then be mentally linked to the signals. Having the splitting distant at a junction like this one gave the driver a chance to stop and query the Bobby if he found the distant off for Newcastle when he was supposed to be going to Settle.

The installation of splitting distants varied greatly over the years and over different companies, but being expensive they tended to fall out of favour as time went on.

Regards

[The Stationmaster]

Neither of these is really entirely correct. The signal arms as such tell you nothing about the speeds, they show the route that has been cleared at the junction ahead, and the respective heights are meant to show the relative importance of the route, which often but not neccessarily corresponded with the speed. The actual speeds came from learning the route and, of course could then be mentally linked to the signals. Having the splitting distant at a junction like this one gave the driver a chance to stop and query the Bobby if he found the distant off for Newcastle when he was supposed to be going to Settle.

The installation of splitting distants varied greatly over the years and over different companies, but being expensive they tended to fall out of favour as time went on.

Regards

 

Although oddly on the Western they did give you a clue about the speed as splitting distants were only normally installed where the speed over each route was at least 40 mph and  most were limited to physical junctions rather than provided for running junctions; however in some cases the speed differential between routes could still be considerable and it was still all down to the driver's route knowledge.  

 

The 'normally' was basically the situation across the whole of the Western but there was at least one very odd exception - on the West London Line at Chelsea Dock Junction where a worked splitting distant was provided to read into a dead end yard due to the nasty gradient profile.  Fortunately a picture of it appears on this page of the Roscalen website -

 

http://www.roscalen.com/signals/London/

Edited February 19, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[Steve Hewitt]

Making a start......

 

The main "Plate & Angle" posts will be from Alan Gibson etches.

 

Eight components to make one side:

 

Add a second side etch:

 

Make two on these, and solder together, trying to keep it all square:

 

Then add the last fourteen plates to complete one Post.

 

More soon....

Steve.

 

 

[Steve Hewitt]

Bracket and Doll fittings........

 

The Splitting Distant has its main doll mounted on top of the Main Post, with the second doll offset 6ft to the right.

 

I turned a small bush from square bar, drilled for the doll and soldered it into the top of the main post:

 

The trimmers are channel section brass (3/32 x 3/64), 9 ft long.

The second doll will be mounted in a turned brass socket, diameter such that trimmers are parallel:

 

I used my "Tufnol" jig with silver steel bars to get everything square for soldering:

Including a loose bush at the base of the main doll to keep it all in line.

 

Bracket work from 1mm brass angle and Weight Bar bearings from square brass tube:

 

Supports for the staging are 1mm x 0.5mm brass, drilled 0.45mm for the stanchions (lace pins):

 

Baseplate and foundations next.....

 

Steve.

[micknich2003]

Steve, I took these in March 1980 at Beverley Cherry Tree, the signal was new in 1958, details differed over the years.

 

[Steve Hewitt]

Thanks Mick,

 

Helpful as ever.

 

Steve.

[micknich2003]

Steve, another one. I'm sure I have more.

[micknich2003]

Steve, another one. I'm sure I have more.

32 Plate and Angle Bracket COPY.jpg

 Another one.

[micknich2003]

 Another one.

35 P&A BRACKET 4 - Copy.jpg

Close up showing the handrail stanchions ete, these are screwed to the decking boards, and do not pass through the "Z Irons".