"FirstGroup ...... frontrunner for west coast rail franchise"

[Katier]

:fool:

You've never worked for them then ? Do you recall the mass traincrew 'sickness' of December 09 ?

 

Great Western.

 

Nope - but then wasn't using the trains then so wouldn't have effected me. But as alluded to elsewhere in the thread, for the most part the service they provide is good enough. The staff/management relationship is the issue.

[The Stationmaster]

I have no axe to grind, but the whole sorry West Coast franchise story for the last month has shown just how low our railway system has stooped - much of it IMHO due to an inept bunch of civil servants in the DfT. We would expect the relevant DfT officials to have had the relevant bids very closely scrutinised by the competent financial experts, and if both bids are robust, then it seems the joint Virgin / Stagecoach team lost to First. Strange how it is Virgin rather than Stagecoach that ae kicking off.

 

Your final point is a very telling one Phil. There was a statement from Stagecoach in one of the 'heavies' the other day (not sure which and I can't find it on the 'net) which basically said we think we did our best, we think First were being a bit more adventurous than us although in the end there wasn't much difference in it financially, tough but we didn't this one, and we're still in the railway business. The various changes at board level to the Stagecoach Group were announced a couple of days later but (genuinely) don't appear to have anything to do with not getting the next WCML franchise as the changes are unrelated to the rail business.

 

Meanwhile the bearded one and his disciples are - are in my view - becoming increasingly childish and irritating - simple point is they lost, end of story in normal life but of course very different where the noisy one is involved. What would now be very timely is a further attempt at an expose of the byzantine financial structure of the Virgin Group plus the amount of UK tax paid in the past 12 months by the head of that group who seems to spend an awful lot of time offshore and whose comments on the loss of the franchise were broadcast from his island in the sun. I'm sorry but I long ago ceased to buy into the idea of the Virgin brand - because basically that is all it is, when it comes to actually running a railway they're no better than anybody else in the franchising game and worse than some, especially if you happened to have been taken over by them.

[The Stationmaster]

Grapevine stuff alluded to above in the reply to me. Basically as I understand it their sunday working is done with a good deal of 'good will' from the train crews. As such, right now, they aren't ( to my understanding ) in a strong position with their relationship between staff and management. It hasn't affected me directly so it based mainly on what I've heard.

Their Sunday working situation arose because of a daft new set of conditions their management brought in - because they didn't understand how things worked in the industry (the buzz being that it was all down to one person in the company - and she, surprisingly, went on to 'better things' whereas in BR days if she'd done something like that she'd have been given a broom cupboard at 222 and left to write memos until she got bored and resigned). The result was a messy situation wherein Sunday turns (at least for Drivers) were to be covered entirely by volunteers and very few of them volunteered for the simple reason that it wasn't worth their while to do so - who can blame them for that; they no longer needed the Sunday money and in any case if they did do a Sunday they weren't going to get it (that is the story which went round in the industry and as far as I know it is correct).

 

I'm sorry but if management can't or won't mange they deserve every mess they get themselves into - especially when it's self-inflicted; the only trouble in this case was - as has happened before in the privytised era - the person who created the mess went on to higher things before it was sussed that it was her and someone else has been lumbered with sorting it out. This is an area where franchising clearly doesn't work and there should be a penalty system in place to deal with it as several franchisee, let alone certain senior managers, have left nasty messes in their wake with someone else to pick up the pieces.

[JohnR]

What would now be very timely is a further attempt at an expose of the byzantine financial structure of the Virgin Group plus the amount of UK tax paid in the past 12 months by the head of that group who seems to spend an awful lot of time offshore and whose comments on the loss of the franchise were broadcast from his island in the sun. I'm sorry but I long ago ceased to buy into the idea of the Virgin brand - because basically that is all it is, when it comes to actually running a railway they're no better than anybody else in the franchising game and worse than some, especially if you happened to have been taken over by them.

 

It is well known that Richard Branson as so organised his tax affairs that he pays very little tax in the UK, despite appearing to be domiciled here. He has a number of companies and holding companies based in various tropical countries. Unsurprisingly, the British Virgin Islands, a notorious tax haven figures large.

[Oldfield_Park]

The latter is, after all, 51% owned by Stagecoach so the change on the WCML is merely switching one bus company for another ...

 

Er...other way round (51% Virgin and 49% Stagecoach). Otherwise we'd be wondering if the Pendolinos would be losing the white, red and orange livery...

 

As a rail employee myself, I watch with considerable interest.

[Guest Phil]

Grapevine stuff alluded to above in the reply to me. Basically as I understand it their sunday working is done with a good deal of 'good will' from the train crews. As such, right now, they aren't ( to my understanding ) in a strong position with their relationship between staff and management. It hasn't affected me directly so it based mainly on what I've heard.

OK, I understand what you are saying. I believe that they are working hard to resolve that issue. Apart from that, the complexity of the operation and the very tight PPM targets make it a challenging environment for them, but one that I think they acquit themselves in pretty well.

They may need me on the LDC up in Brum.....Im easily bought and very good at persuading people "its in their best interests"

Their Sunday working situation arose because of a daft new set of conditions their management brought in - because they didn't understand how things worked in the industry (the buzz being that it was all down to one person in the company - and she, surprisingly, went on to 'better things' whereas in BR days if she'd done something like that she'd have been given a broom cupboard at 222 and left to write memos until she got bored and resigned). The result was a messy situation wherein Sunday turns (at least for Drivers) were to be covered entirely by volunteers and very few of them volunteered for the simple reason that it wasn't worth their while to do so - who can blame them for that; they no longer needed the Sunday money and in any case if they did do a Sunday they weren't going to get it (that is the story which went round in the industry and as far as I know it is correct).

 

I'm sorry but if management can't or won't mange they deserve every mess they get themselves into - especially when it's self-inflicted; the only trouble in this case was - as has happened before in the privytised era - the person who created the mess went on to higher things before it was sussed that it was her and someone else has been lumbered with sorting it out. This is an area where franchising clearly doesn't work and there should be a penalty system in place to deal with it as several franchisee, let alone certain senior managers, have left nasty messes in their wake with someone else to pick up the pieces.

 

London Midland Trains was born on the same date as (New) X Country and East Midlands Trains, on 8th November 2007. For those who don't know, Central Trains was basically split three ways, a portion going to each of the three named new franchises. XC were well aware of the issues involving Sunday turns for Central Trains and much midnight oil was expended by reps and management to thrash out a harmonisation deal for the drivers of (former) Virgin and (former) Central Trains. This took three years to achieve full effect, but it means that XC Trains can advertise and plan to run a sunday train service and pretty much expect drivers to turn up for it. Nearly five years on, I am not sure the LMT are there yet with their drivers.

 

Sadly XC "guards" as in Train Managers and Senior Conductors are a different story.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Well the e-petition has now passed the required 100,000 mark so its off to the House of Commons for a debate. Coupled with the earlier news about a delay to the signing......

 

I did predict a sh** storm. Grab an umbrella, sit back, and watch the crap-fest unfold.

My reading of the BBC news story is that the contract will be signed before the motion can be debated (and that assumes it gets past the relevant committee and there is a debate). This will no doubt annoy 120,000+ people with no knowledge or experience of how tendering processes work. If the MPs actually want to do something useful, they could debate the franchising process in general and suggest improvements for the future.

 

The slightly pithy comments from First Group are worth quoting:

We appreciate that Richard Branson is a high-profile celebrity with millions following him personally on social media. However, our business is transport - first and foremost.

This is presumably in response to Branson's blog where the PR department minion who wrote it he calls on people to sign the petition. The one that's completely and utterly independent of Virgin.

[Southernman46]

and everyone still hasn't appreciated what's going to happen when these clowns get "allianced" with (i.e. takeover managing the infrastructure maintenance from) NR.

 

Glad I'll be retired..............

[The Stationmaster]

and everyone still hasn't appreciated what's going to happen when these clowns get "allianced" with (i.e. takeover managing the infrastructure maintenance from) NR.

Glad I'll be retired..............

Some of us have! It was bad enough facing the prospect of, and then seeing the consequences of, Railtrack taking charge of the nation's rail infrastructure. What happened under them would be as nothing compared with what some of these fly-by-nights are capable of doing in the blink of an eye - it would take generations of work and billions in money to put right what they could manage mismanage in 5 years

[Southernman46]

Some of us have! It was bad enough facing the prospect of, and then seeing the consequences of, Railtrack taking charge of the nation's rail infrastructure. What happened under them would be as nothing compared with what some of these fly-by-nights are capable of doing in the blink of an eye - it would take generations of work and billions in money to put right what they could manage mismanage in 5 years

 

Aye Mike, those who know - it'll simply be a case of waiting the next Hatfield, Potters Bar etc.........

 

some of the great work over the last 10 years to recover in Wessex is already being undone

[AndrewC]

If anyone wants to see just how fast and how much a difference a good or bad ToC can make, you just need to look at Southeastern.

Connex: worst of the worst and stripped of their franchise. Operated by the government as SET, in 2 years it went from around 78% reliability to over 98%. Govia's Southeastern has pretty much undone everything that was good about SET. Reliability is now just 0.04% above triggering the season ticket rebate. Anyone that follows a train's progress with one of the Network rail live timetable apps knows just how much fudging goes on with the time reporting. Frequently a 5-7 minute late service is reported as "on time". Short formations, last second cancellations, and non-existent customer communication is the norm. Recently voted as the worst train operator in the UK. Same line, same equipment, same non-management staff. Just shows how much difference good management makes.

 

Turning this back on topic. For all its faults Virgin is managing to run a fairly reliable service at the moment. What the upheaval of First's management changeover is going to do to that reliability and stability is anyone's guess.

[JohnR]

 

Turning this back on topic. For all its faults Virgin is managing to run a fairly reliable service at the moment. What the upheaval of First's management changeover is going to do to that reliability and stability is anyone's guess.

 

You're right that any management change will result in deterioation of performance. I think it was Gerry Fiennes who said "When you reorganise, we bleed"....

['CHARD]

You're right that any management change will result in deterioation of performance. I think it was Gerry Fiennes who said "When you reorganise, we bleed"....

 

Thanks for that inadvertant but very timely reminder to check my bid progress on eBay for a copy of 'I Tried To Run A Railway.'

 

I imagine the seller is delighted that your prompt caused my hurried and red-faced payment this morning!

[APOLLO]

Just spent a week with Family down in Thame. We decided to have a day out by train in London. Four adults and 2 children. A Chiltern trains groupsave fare for the lot of us, including zones 1-6 tube and bus Haddenham & Thame Parkway - Marylebone was £55. A superb bargain. No advance booking - turn up pay & go. First train availiable was the 09.37 (arr 10.27, return by any train). To miss the rush we returned around 9.00 pm.

 

All trains clean, on time, friendly staff, good passenger info. Chiltern lives up to all the praise it recieves - an example of how ALL our railways should be managed and operated.

 

Brit15

[The Stationmaster]

Well according to reports on the tv it seems that Bearded One's petition has not had the hoped for result with Justine Greening saying the new contract will be signed this week and 'a Govt spokesman' saying that MPs cannot interfere in the commercial matter of franchise negotiations. That is encouraging and shows just how off target the petition was - by all means debate the idea and process of franchising but paws out of individual cases and deals. And provided Beardie stays on his island in the sun and shuts up matters will take their proper course and we will find out in due time if First are as clever as they think they are?

 

Seems Louise Ellman, Chairman of the Transport Select Committee, is keen to stop the deal and have its award debated but as she has a Liverpool constituency so it might just be her sense of vote preservation talking (but she has a safe Labour seat) - judging by stuff on the 'net an 'interest' in transport matters is not within her normal compass of political involvement.

 

Oddly enough I think BR was pretty resilient to lots of organisational changes but the privytisation thing is very different from those because the stability of 'protection' given by the Machinery of Consultation and Negotiation is no longer there and some of those who come in haven't got a clue what they are doing but simply want to slash already low costs or are so frightened of even today's limited union power that they give away improvements in contract terms to some groups of staff like they think they are going out of fashion. I was quite surprised to see how the 'bus company accountant' sort of incomers at 'ownership' level were prepared to let some costs rise substantially for the sake of a bit of peace and quiet. The biggest future problem I think is that potential managers being trained now will simply not have the breadth of experience and knowledge of those of us who grew up with BR and coupling that to the demands of short termism could result in some dangerous holes in professional standards.

 

BTW - it's a good book 'chard although I still think the 'hogsnorton' timetable was not as bad as he makes out (I was outside the fence then) - and I used to blow my whistle at passengers from Newbury, among many other places.

[lmsforever]

This must be the most publicity grabbing franchise letting yet,perhaps because it is the bearded one involved ,what improvements did Virgin propose and how different from First were they.? Much is being made of new trains but this had been decided quite a while ago ,DAFT interferience has caused many problems in the past with this franchise as has failures by NR to deliver on improvements and basic maintainence.Surely after the dust has settled an improvement in the way the franchise process takes place has to be acheived otherwise we will see more of the nonsence that has occured this time.

[JohnR]

bear in mind the new trains in the First franchise bid are to replace the voyagers currently running under the wires from Brum to Glasgow. The Voyagers will then be redployed to serve off grid destinations. I dont think these were in Virgin's plans, so the 11 new electric trains are definitely a plus.

[The Stationmaster]

This must be the most publicity grabbing franchise letting yet,perhaps because it is the bearded one involved ,what improvements did Virgin propose and how different from First were they.? Much is being made of new trains but this had been decided quite a while ago ,DAFT interferience has caused many problems in the past with this franchise as has failures by NR to deliver on improvements and basic maintainence.Surely after the dust has settled an improvement in the way the franchise process takes place has to be acheived otherwise we will see more of the nonsence that has occured this time.

I suspect part of the problem with the process is the impact of political interference which might perhaps muddy the waters of what the franchisee is being expected to deliver; this must make direct comparisons difficult for those assessing the bids. I think that probably having an independent Franchising Director was a better way of doing things as he was hopefully more independent of the political element than DafT is but still subject to some 'influence' from the politicos unless of a very strong will and independent mind.

 

In this particular debacle the waters are of course being well & truly muddied by Branson and his disciples plus a lot of total nonsense appearing in the media (nothing new there of course) which hardly helps inform debate. While Branson should be totally ashamed of himself yes the process does need change, and probably greater clarity, but what is needed more than anything else is a clear statement of how the balance has been met in each letting of a franchise.

[Richard E]

Beardy one is stirring the pot yet more in order to make the waters even muddier:

 

Richard Branson has offered to run the West Coast Mainline "for free" in order to give Parliament time to review the £10bn franchise's award to FirstGroup.

He said Virgin Trains and Stagecoach would run it on a not-for-profit basis after December - when they are due to hand over the franchise - if more time was needed for a review.

 

More than 100,000 people have signed an online petition against the decision.

 

FirstGroup said it would bring in key improvements for passengers. In its bid, FirstGroup said it would introduce better wi-fi and food, more frequent trains and more seats, and would cut standard fares by 15%. The firm said it would introduce 11 new 125mph six-car electric trains on the Birmingham-to-Glasgow route and provide more direct services between destinations.

 

However, the Virgin boss claimed promises made by FirstGroup in its successful bid were unrealistic and would lead to his rival's "almost certain bankruptcy". In an opinion piece in the Daily Telegraph, Mr Branson described the government's decision as "outrageous, unjust and simply wrong".

His campaign to have the decision reviewed has been backed by businessman Lord Sugar, TV chef Jamie Oliver and the double Olympic gold medallist Mo Farah.

 

The government is due to sign the 13-year contract with FirstGroup on Tuesday, following the Department for Transport's decision earlier this month.

Louise Ellman, who chairs the House of Commons transport committee, has written to Transport Secretary Justine Greening asking her to delay signing the contract.

 

Virgin has run the franchise since 1997, during which time passenger numbers have doubled, but has been told that its tenure will end on 9 December.

Mr Branson said that if reviewing the decision meant the December deadline had to be postponed, his company and Stagecoach would be willing to continue operating the railway lines while donating any profits to charity.

 

The government says FirstGroup's new trains should add a further 12,000 seats a day on West Coast routes from 2016. FirstGroup said it already ran an award-winning service and was looking forward to welcoming new passengers. "As a result of our plans, customers travelling with us will use faster brand new trains with more seats, serving more destinations than the current service," a spokesman said. "There will be improved wi-fi, better catering, refurbished stations and importantly we'll be cutting standard anytime fares by 15% on average."

 

About 31 million passengers travel on the West Coast Mainline every year.

[paulbb]

This latest franchise fiasco highlights the core problem - OWNERSHIP. The old state rail system has been replaced by a bureacracy that makes a mockery

of the way competition and markets are supposed to work. Sadly none of the politicians to-day will face up to this colossal system failure. Labour are too scared to really change

anything (no change there) and the Conservatives created the mess in the first place.

Has anyone worked out the cost of the rolling stock leasing system to the taxpayer?

[Ohmisterporter]

"His campaign to have the decision reviewed has been backed by businessman Lord Sugar, TV chef Jamie Oliver and the double Olympic gold medallist Mo Farah".

 

Wow! They will have to sit up and take notice now!

[woodenhead]

If the Government intervened directly in a bidding process then it would politicise the whole process, damage the franchising regime and have opposition parties cry foul that vested interests and votes had been put before value for money.

 

She is right to continue with signatures, only if Virgin had a legal redress relating some a pertinent point in the winning bid should it be allowed to argue for suspension of signing. As it stands the only thing Virgin has is that it may bankrupt First running this contract, but seeing as First has set up a seperate organisation to run this route then it looks like it has already protected itself and clearly it has the funds for any bonds that the DFT may require.

[JohnR]

Note there is a difference between running something for free and on a not-for-profit basis..... Virgin ran both West Coast and Cross Country on a not-for profit basis for a while when the regime was being soted out with Network Rail regarding the West Coast upgrade.

 

He still made millions out of the "not-for-profit" management fee he charged.....

 

Remember Branson's bid to run the National Lottery on a "not-for-profit" basis? The independent regulator then said that his bid would a) involve less money going to the good causes, and b ) Virgin making substantial sums of money....

[jjb1970]

On London Midland, I have an annual season ticket Bletchley - London and on the whole I'm happy with their service. My only complaint is the awful 3+2 layout of the 350/2's, but reliability and punctuality are good, the trains are generally kept clean and in good order and the staff are helpful, in all honesty I think they do a pretty good job from my perspective.

[Eggesford box]

I will now be advising Jamie Oliver on his cooking, after all, being a dab hand at putting ready meals in a microwave I have far more experience of cooking than he has of running a railway!