andy stroud Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Having been heavily involved in major procurements (multi million pounds, when a million was rare) I know how much time and effort (= money) goes into these things and therefore how much is lost if unsuccessful, often things change during the procurement process meaning additional, unexpected costs (please come and show us your system again Mr Hospital Software Supplier, Please can we see it one more time" "We've given the contract to someone else" (no apology for getting our team and equipment to the North of England or any reimbursement of the costs, "if you want the contract this is what you have to do" (when the initial memorandum said "one site visit to demonstrate the system", and we ended up doing 4 or more on occasion) Maybe things changed later, but don't be hasty to condemn based on one statement. All the more reason to ditch the whole franchising system altogether and spend more money on trains, as oppossed to inter-company administrations, constant rebranding of train fleets and ongoing leasing charges to finance companies, etc,.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 And guess what... http://www.cityam.com/latest-news/firstgroup-caps-rail-bid-liability#.UCzClWyIO4g.twitter If FirstGroup are so confident with this bid, why have they done this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted August 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2012 All the more reason to ditch the whole franchising system altogether and spend more money on trains, as oppossed to inter-company administrations, constant rebranding of train fleets and ongoing leasing charges to finance companies, etc,.. Bring back BR ? - if only life were that simple, and if only life was actually that good under BR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted August 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 16, 2012 If we went back to BR I wonder how many contributors to this topic would have some form of complaint / moan? We need to remember that change happens. This change might not always suit our views or ideas. Companies don't set out to fail so I'm sure that First believe in the figures they have used. We need to give them a chance to prove themselves on the West Coast line, after all not a single pendolino or voyager has turned a wheel on this route under their operational control. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 If we went back to BR I wonder how many contributors to this topic would have some form of complaint / moan? Probably the very same ones! The dead hand of the State only really got exciting in the mid-1980s with the sectorisation process. Should they have left it at that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Bring back BR ? - if only life were that simple, and if only life was actually that good under BR In fairness to BR though it never had anything like the funding available today. Who knows what BR would/could have achieved if it had the current level of support given to the railways as a whole today, especially as there wouldn't be the cost of bidding, consultants, lawyers, and all the other accoutrements of the modern railway. Having said all that, that's an argument for another thread and O/T here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronk the shunter Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 If we went back to BR I wonder how many contributors to this topic would have some form of complaint / moan? Me for one! Without moaning I have nothing to say! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Why "bring back BR" - are we saying we have to introduce EXACTLY the same systems in place as previous, complete with steam locomotives and carriages with more limited safety capabilities, with loose fitted freight stock and similar? Of course not! But a nationalised railway which wasn't at the behest of a compensation culture, with a severe lack in investment and interest in maintaining standards or improving on them, has got to be better than this franchising system, surely? If it had even a tenth of the money available to it that the NHS gets every year, for example (a public service which in my view deserves all the money it can get and should get more, not cuts), if it had people in charge who knew what they doing (and not political yes men), then how much better could our railways be run? Bringing back a nationalised railway does not automatically mean "bring back BR". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 .....If it had even a tenth of the money available to it that the NHS gets every year, for example..... Much of which appears to be (mis)spent on managers and IT systems that sort of work..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Much of which appears to be (mis)spent on managers and IT systems that sort of work..... True - which is why it does need change - but that's for a debate on another forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2012 Why "bring back BR" - are we saying we have to introduce EXACTLY the same systems in place as previous, complete with steam locomotives and carriages with more limited safety capabilities, with loose fitted freight stock and similar? Of course not! But a nationalised railway which wasn't at the behest of a compensation culture, with a severe lack in investment and interest in maintaining standards or improving on them, has got to be better than this franchising system, surely? If it had even a tenth of the money available to it that the NHS gets every year, for example (a public service which in my view deserves all the money it can get and should get more, not cuts), if it had people in charge who knew what they doing (and not political yes men), then how much better could our railways be run? Bringing back a nationalised railway does not automatically mean "bring back BR". One very important point in there Simon - the bit about political yes men. Alas I suspect that now in the top end of the rail industry there are very few such people - the BR culture of developing managers and using their personalities and skills seems to have been replaced in many cases by short termism and 'quick buck' approaches. True Network rail exists to an extent outside that area but it is hidebound with a culture of major risk aversion and constant fear of litigation - plus of course it now has access to very few senior managers with an all round railway knowledge. In other words it would be difficult to re-invent the BR most of us remember and at best you start from somewhere like the situation in 1948 but with a much smaller skills base and a tiny base - if it exists at all - of those who aren't political yes men. I suspect what would happen is a train operating 'national company' with many of the traits of NR as it now stands and it might become as risk averse as NR with a similar culture - which is not what the railway needs for train operations and its commercial face. We are, alas, where we are and we cannot go back to our best remembered past (however good or bad it happened to be) so we might as well forget it and try to move forward from where we are. A simple answer might be something more akin to profit sharing management contracts rather than franchises but even then the question will always be how does the contractor control his costs to get the best performance in financial terms - it is not an easy thing to resolve. The other question is in reality how much damage is done if a franchisee fails. Well provided they are forced to retain an effective management organisation within the franchise (which was originally the case and still should be even though Virgin didn't exactly do that when it held two franchises) and provided such an organisation passes regular safety validation and trains are maintained properly and services still operate then the taxpayer loses very little in a franchise which should be producing an annual return to the Govt. The key is controls to stop the franchisee causing damage beyond repair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
definate maybe Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Personally, I am a great believer in the old phrase 'if it aint broke, dont fix it' I think that as long as the present 'provider' is on track (sorry for pun) on certain targets then they should be given first refusal to retain the franchise. If first/ Virgin/ Stagecoach or whoever is there for the next 50 years I dont suppose any body would care as long as their trains were clean, ran on time and were at a competitive price. If this happened but the franchise was on a rolling 5 year contract (for example) but would automatically be reviewed if the target areas failed to be met then hopefully it woudl keep everyone striving to be at the top of their game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Richard E Posted August 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 16, 2012 I've just run a company search on First Group, cash in bank at 31/3/12 £0.5bn, net worth of company -£1bn which is a lot better than 2009 when their net worth was -£1.5bn. Their cash at bank has risen steadily since 2008. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I've just run a company search on First Group, cash in bank at 31/3/12 £0.5bn, net worth of company -£1bn which is a lot better than 2009 when their net worth was -£1.5bn. Their cash at bank has risen steadily since 2008. But they still owe more cash than most people can ever dream about. How the heck can a company be allowed to run up debts like that and still be regarded by the government as worthy of a franchise? At a time when a person on the national averge salary cannot get a mortgage to buy an average priced house. The economics of the mad house? It's not for me to say. But I do have a view based on personal experience. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Whilst I see your point very clearly Bernard, mortgages are normally given on the money coming in and the abililty to make payments. That said, this is the world of business and the government are involved so I should imagine anything goes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcyg Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Mortgages are given by the banks belief they holder can pay back the loan. Same with thi franchise, although First are in debt, can they still service the payments on the loan-that's what the government looks at. Another example, Manchester UTD are in debt to 750million (due to reasons not needed here) but because it is such a big franchise, with a huge turnover, the club doesn't fold. On the other hand, Portsmouth FC had no where near as much debt as ManU, but because they couldn't afford to repay the debt, they nearly went under (about 10 times so far and counting) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 .....Manchester UTD are in debt to 750million (due to reasons not needed here) ..... It's now down to £433 million and likely to be around £360 or so with the proceeds of the partial float in NY; but your general point about highly leveraged, but highly profitable companies is worth making. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Unfortunately, owing thousands of pounds is looked on in a much worse light than owing several millions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 You've got to owe money (and be able to pay it back) to be credit worthy. A tip I was given, is don't pay all of your mortgage off, but leave a small amount owing. Otherwise your credit rating goes out of the window. I don't know how true that is, but based on other evidence, I reckon it's probable quite true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted August 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2012 Unfortunately, owing thousands of pounds is looked on in a much worse light than owing several millions. If you owe the bank £100,000 and cant pay - thats your problem, but if you owe the bank £100,000,000 and cant pay - thats their problem!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Western Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 From a First press release. "Automatic ticket gates installation at 21 stations, incl. the major terminals of London Euston, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool Lime Street and Glasgow Central (currently only 8% of ICWC passengers pass through automatic gates)" Automatic gates were installed at great cost at Coventry some years back (VT managed station) but removed after compliants from VT passengers about having to pass through them or having the bigger advanced tickets which wont go through the gates. All trace has seen been removed of the gates. Great Western, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted August 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 16, 2012 Automatic gates were installed at great cost at Coventry some years back (VT managed station) but removed after compliants from VT passengers about having to pass through them or having the bigger advanced tickets which wont go through the gates. All trace has seen been removed of the gates. Great Western, Installation od automatic ticket gates are pretty much a MANDATORY requirement of every single franchise these days. It doesn't mater who gets the franchise - even if Virgin had retained it the DfT would still have INSISTED on all stations having gates installed (remember the who-ha over Sheffield, their installation was a requiremnt of the franchise, not an initative by stagecoach - though I imagine they didn't complain) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted August 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2012 At the end of the day the only opinion of VT that matters is that of the travelling public. If you look at passenger feedback as in the National Passenger Survey, VT outperforms FGW in most respects. Indeed - and Virgin have many more complaints made against them than First. And Virgin only answer half of them within the 20 day limit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted August 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2012 Indeed - and Virgin have many more complaints made against them than First. And Virgin only answer half of them within the 20 day limit. Yet Virgin has higher customer satisfaction rates than First. Lies, damned lies and statistics... All I can say is that post WCML upgrade work finishing Virgin have been excellent in most respects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 45156 Posted August 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2012 I've had no complaints on the odd occasion that I've travelled with VIrgin - on the other hand, I had a pretty rotten experience of a grossly overcrowded FIrst Transpennine Express service from Preston to Oxenholme - and a "train manager" who just hid himself in the back cab when the irate passengers customers endeavoured to find him to raise their feelings and ire. I've no doubt that more money will be spent on the whole rebranding exercise, as usual, and that it will get priority over just about everything else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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