The future of loco kit building

[Kenton]

 

but modellers today expect more than that.

 

ArthurK

Some do and some don't. Although many modellers aspire to your perfection, many still do not. Just like it would be good to think of everyone modelling in P4, the vast majority still model in nasty old OO, maybe even content with their choice.

 

Which is why you will not (hopefully) see modern designed and produced kits in that category, and why the modern RTR has more to offer than the RTR of the 70's. Let's compare like with like, are we not being unfair comparing our judgement of the superbly detailed RTR of today with the kits of the past.

 

Perhaps we should all throw away the kits of the past and stop trying to make them work or fix their faults and instead start to buy the better kits currently available. While we are about it only produce kits for P4 with no compromises. Ah, but I forget there are modellers who like the challenge of building those kits and modellers who will persist in using OO.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Hi

 

Stop talking about bad kits, it will put folk off from kit building. Lets have some good stories, that way there may be a future in kit bulding and some may be encouraged to take the plunge.

 

Lets have the easiest kit to build or the most enjoyable or the best please

I had a lot of fun building this Craftsman T1. A bit basic in places (I scratchbuilt a new bogie to replace the cast one) but otherwise it fitted together beautifully. The boiler and a few other parts were preformed, so you just had to solder it all together. 

[EHertsGER]

I'm still intrigued to know how many of the young 'uns (RIP Rik Mayall, by the way. So sad a loss.) venture off into kit/scratch building territory. How do we distinguish here who is a young 'un and who is not (watershed being, perhaps, those who bought a K's kit from a shop rather than eBay because that's how you bought kits if you are not a young 'un), or perhaps pre- and post- 'bling' dynasty Hornby?

 

Best,

Marcus

[Adam]

I'm still intrigued to know how many of the young 'uns (RIP Rik Mayall, by the way. So sad a loss.) venture off into kit/scratch building territory. How do we distinguish here who is a young 'un and who is not (watershed being, perhaps, those who bought a K's kit from a shop rather than eBay because that's how you bought kits if you are not a young 'un), or perhaps pre- and post- 'bling' dynasty Hornby?

 

Best,

Marcus

A fair few, I think. I'm not that long past 30 and have been at this kit/scratchbuilding lark for years. Possibly the choice of prototype that many younger modellers are interested in means that loco kit building is only necessary very occasionally. If you want to make a model of a mainline prototype set after about 1960 the need to kit build locos isn't really there in the way if once was.

 

In terms of fun kits to build, anything by Judith Edge is a pleasure, and the one High Level kit I've built was very good. Note that these are all industrial prototypes.

 

The Gibson O2 that was my second brass loco, however, was a bit of a pig but runs very well and looks good, but boy did take a lot of work to build square and to correct the detail errors. That was a decade ago now...

 

Adam

[John_Hughes]

St. Albans, RailEx Aylesbury, ExpoEM, Scaleforum, are just four of the shows I've seen them at.

 

Thanks - a bit away from my part of the world, sadly, though I did manage ExpoEM a couple of years back.

[EHertsGER]

I do believe, quote strongly - enough to write this - that the future of kitbuilding is in an optimistic place right now. Certainly the RTR market is serving us modellers well. I could never have built a BR class 16 from scratch, so well done Heljan. OK, by contrast their Class 15 pretty much did for Dave Alexander's Class 15 - or did it?

 

The case I put before the inevitable debate is Hornby's forthcoming J15. First off, will it meet the expectations of the fastidious? Probably, but what of the hopes of those who yearn for the Sharp Stewart builds, the pre 1892 tender engines, the low sided cab variants, the enclosed cab/tender cabs or any of those in GER blue/grey that are not met by the LNER/BR 'composite' the manufacturing constraints of the mass market impose on Hornby?

 

Thus we must reach for the Alan Gibson kit and beaver away into the night...

 

And what of those of us who may well be happy with the LNER/BR composite? For P4 we must turn to Brassmasters who, I understand from recent correspondence, plan an 'easichas' solution to our needs (put me right here, please). Then comes the inevitable 'how much will that course of action cost me.'

 

So, for anyone not running an LNER/BR 'composite' in 00 (and what is wrong with that??), as I have described it, we need more...more from one source or another until the RTR choice vanishes in favour of the kit (or, in more generic terms of my argument, the scratchbuild too). In truth, if you want that locomotive, you will build it. And so the kit, if it exists in buildable form (lots of posts about that, starting with poor old K's, whom I remember populated so many layouts of my youth) or the scratch build will always happen. The difference is, I feel, the pause between buy and build that is now just a little longer than it once was, as alternative presents itself; convenience or fidelity?

 

Nobody thinks any less of the RTR choice now, but those true to their aim - prototype or location, will most likely opt for the kit/scratch option.

 

Well that is my view anyway - what do you think? I have some kits to build, so talk among yourselves for a while...

 

Best,

Marcus

[mikemeg]

The r-t-r suppliers have done and are doing a great job in furnishing the hobby with more and more models, increasingly of prototypes which had a limited geographical presence. But there will always be prototypes not covered by the r-t-r offerings and there will always be modellers who will build a model of a prototype even if an r-t-r version is available; look at the kits for the Royal Scot, Black 5, etc.

 

Then, of course, there are those who model in EM or P4 and for whom there is no r-t-r. Everything must be built or at least converted to run on these gauges.

 

As someone who does enjoy building kits and who still enjoys scratch building, then I would venture to suggest that the kit market is still healthy. Of course etched brass and nickel silver have replaced cast white metal, thankfully. Now we also have cast resin and fibre glass which produce much finer detail than white metal ever could and can be produced by photo lithograhy, so called 3d printing.

 

To my mind there is no doubt that etched kits do require a level of skill somewhat greater than that required to assemble an older white metal kit but acquiring that level of skill can be done. I am now in my late sixties and did not build an etched kit until I was well into my sixties, though I have scratch built for more years than that. Despite the age, I feel that I am still learning and, hopefully, still improving.

 

Test building kits under development, which I now do, does impose different challenges, for there are often few if any instructions and there are the occasional dimensional inconsistencies or misinterpretations. But it all adds to the joy of actually achieving a successful build and a working model.

 

Just by way of example, here are a couple of prototypes of kits; one released, the other still under development. These are both built to P4 standards, as are all of the test builds which I do. And no, I am not a P4 zealot, just someone who likes to see the rails the correct distance apart!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[James Makin]

Nobody thinks any less of the RTR choice now, but those true to their aim - prototype or location, will most likely opt for the kit/scratch option.

 

 

It think it all depends on what you're trying to model, and how well the RTR product captures that from the outset, if there is a plus point, it's saving the time building a loco and re-investing all of that time instead into further detailing and weathering to make something truly jaw-dropping - having said that, away from this loco-centric thread, the real fun in this hobby for me is trying to make awesome scratchbuilt buildings and decrepit wagon projects!

[hayfield]

Kit building cannot be that un-popular as most of the loco kits I fancy on Ebay go for more than I am prepared to pay, but then I am a bit of a cheapskate  

 

I think lots do want to build kits, but when they get them home something stops them from starting the kit

[Clive Mortimore]

I do believe, quote strongly - enough to write this - that the future of kitbuilding is in an optimistic place right now. Certainly the RTR market is serving us modellers well. I could never have built a BR class 16 from scratch, so well done Heljan. OK, by contrast their Class 15 pretty much did for Dave Alexander's Class 15 - or did it?

 

The case I put before the inevitable debate is Hornby's forthcoming J15. First off, will it meet the expectations of the fastidious? Probably, but what of the hopes of those who yearn for the Sharp Stewart builds, the pre 1892 tender engines, the low sided cab variants, the enclosed cab/tender cabs or any of those in GER blue/grey that are not met by the LNER/BR 'composite' the manufacturing constraints of the mass market impose on Hornby?

 

Thus we must reach for the Alan Gibson kit and beaver away into the night...

 

And what of those of us who may well be happy with the LNER/BR composite? For P4 we must turn to Brassmasters who, I understand from recent correspondence, plan an 'easichas' solution to our needs (put me right here, please). Then comes the inevitable 'how much will that course of action cost me.'

 

So, for anyone not running an LNER/BR 'composite' in 00 (and what is wrong with that??), as I have described it, we need more...more from one source or another until the RTR choice vanishes in favour of the kit (or, in more generic terms of my argument, the scratchbuild too). In truth, if you want that locomotive, you will build it. And so the kit, if it exists in buildable form (lots of posts about that, starting with poor old K's, whom I remember populated so many layouts of my youth) or the scratch build will always happen. The difference is, I feel, the pause between buy and build that is now just a little longer than it once was, as alternative presents itself; convenience or fidelity?

 

Nobody thinks any less of the RTR choice now, but those true to their aim - prototype or location, will most likely opt for the kit/scratch option.

 

Well that is my view anyway - what do you think? I have some kits to build, so talk among yourselves for a while...

 

Best,

Marcus

Hi Marcus

 

While I agree with your post in its general terms, I must disagree with the opening comments about not being able to scratch build a NBL Type 1 (class 16). nice and easy it is square, unlike the BTH Type1 (class 15) that has funny angles and shapely curves.

 

I have been building them for donkey's years. I quite like the Heljan D84xx but not keen on their D82xx. I have never built a Dave Alexander Class 15 so if anyone has one at the bottom of their "Round to it" pile that they what to dispose of, please let me know.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Kit building cannot be that un-popular as most of the loco kits I fancy on Ebay go for more than I am prepared to pay, but then I am a bit of a cheapskate  

 

I think lots do want to build kits, but when they get them home something stops them from starting the kit

So it isn't you selling that D&S LNWR van kit on ebay, then?

 

Jol

[hayfield]

So it isn't you selling that D&S LNWR van kit on ebay, then?

 

Jol

 

 

Yes, but I am keeping the other 2 items I bought at the same time, which will be built.

 

The great thing about Ebay is that you can sell the items you no longer need/can't use/unwanted. Also it allows you to buy lots and move on the items in them that you do not require. It could be said that the items on sale on Ebay promote kit building!!

 

One of the items I bought is a duplicate, it is in much better condition and boxed than the one I have already, which now will be cleaned up and sold. As I am trying to reduce the number of kits/locos I have , but at the same time improve the ones I wish to keep. Thus I will continue to build kits. There will be a major pruning of what I have, I simply have too many items.

 

Re-written to clarify my point

[billbedford]

Kit building cannot be that un-popular as most of the loco kits I fancy on Ebay go for more than I am prepared to pay, but then I am a bit of a cheapskate  

 

I think lots do want to build kits, but when they get them home something stops them from starting the kit

 

I don't think so, I think that there are many people who buy kits because they want to own a finished version of what the kit represents, but there are very few people who buy kits because they really want to build them.

[N15class]

I don't think so, I think that there are many people who buy kits because they want to own a finished version of what the kit represents, but there are very few people who buy kits because they really want to build them.

I must be one of the few. I build because it is the part of the hobby I enjoy most. I do build for own planned layout, but most are sold.

[hayfield]

Bill

 

You are quite right with your reply, but these people do keep the prices down for those like me who buy on the second hand market. I do know someone who buys kits and gets others to make them. This 3D printing may well take over from plastic/whitemetal/etched kits as we know them

 

Peter 

 

I think railway modellers fall into many groups. Those who take pleasure from running stock, which could either be RTR or kit built. Those who like building kits, and those who like to scratch build are just a few of those groups. I guess the need to kit or scratch build is less now than in the past as the choice of RTR stock gets bigger, but the "making" part of the hobby is where my interests lie

[Jol Wilkinson]

John,

 

while ebay enables people to sell unwanted items and obtain bargains, it is not always that straightforward.

 

I have tracked the ebay listings of LNWR items as well as the products of a certain etched kit supplier for over eight years. Several things are clear. The first is that buyers are often ignorant of what is currently available and how much it costs. That's particularly the case where a product is in new hands (e.g. some D&S kits, the George Norton range, the Derek Mundy S&W/MSE horsebox kits). About 10% of all the specific kits sold on ebay go for 100% or more than current retail - the record being 220% for a S&W LSWR Horsebox described as "very rare". This level of ignorance is surprising given the opportunity to search the internet for what's available today. On average the kits achieve 91% of new price, that's including quite old versions that are now available with upgraded castings, etc.

 

The prices achieved have actually dropped from an average of 96% about eighteen months ago. Why? One explanation may be the increasing number of traders operating on ebay, some of whom don't seem to have a clear idea of what they are selling, describing it badly or inaccurately. Some may be put off by this, although others may see the opportunity to get a bargain. Some products sell against this trend, notably D&S etched kits, usually described as rare or no longer obtainable (Danny is still producing the 4mm kits as per his 2005 list when he has sufficient demand).

 

Your point that there is less need to build kits as RTR ranges get bigger cannot be argued. However, there are many, many more models available as kits than the RTR manufacturers do (or probably ever will) supply. If you prefer to model a specific era/area/railway - rather than just buy whatever gets made in China - then you  will need to build kits or from scratch. The latest MRJ or the first issue of FRMR illustrates that.

 

Jol

 

p.s. I haven't bid for your D&S LNWR kit on ebay, I'm waiting for Bill's new kits (I've paid the deposits).

[JeffP]

I agree wholeheartedly with the above.

Yrears ago I was involved with doing up mountain bikes.

I kept finding folk paying more on e-bay for a second hand part that was still available brand new and post free from Northern Ireland. AND they paid P&P via ebay, so a good 20% dearer.

 

And my pet hate? Finding a part listed once every day, the seller had quite a few to get rid of. So bid on one...and was outbid...despite there being another further down the page at a lower price, and another after that etc etc.

 

I think it shows laziness on the part of Joe Public, myself.

[Smiffy2]

My wife knows some market traders. One used to make good money at Christmas by putting up items from Argos - even using their pictures - at Argos' price +10% + postage. When people bought he popped down to Argos, bought the item and posted it. People bought because they assumed that as it was ebay they were getting a bargain...

[hayfield]

JeffP

 

Quite a lot of people are prepared to buy from Ebay as its quick and simple, there are times when they pay more than the retail price I guess for many different reasons, ease of purchase and not having to wait are just a couple. Lets hope that it gets built and the buyer enjoys it.

 

By the way, its not just Ebay where prices are higher than the RTR, at Folkstone there was a stand selling C&L copperclad sleeper strip 20% higher than C&L than the price, who just happened to be at the show. Traders at shows do the same with certain collectables and parts.

 

Smiffy2

 

The mark up must have been more as for a non trader the selling rate is 10% plus another 3% for Paypal

 

Still both of these are a bit off topic, except that there are buyers for kits

[micklner]

John,

 

while ebay enables people to sell unwanted items and obtain bargains, it is not always that straightforward.

 

I have tracked the ebay listings of LNWR items as well as the products of a certain etched kit supplier for over eight years. Several things are clear. The first is that buyers are often ignorant of what is currently available and how much it costs. That's particularly the case where a product is in new hands (e.g. some D&S kits, the George Norton range, the Derek Mundy S&W/MSE horsebox kits). About 10% of all the specific kits sold on ebay go for 100% or more than current retail - the record being 220% for a S&W LSWR Horsebox described as "very rare". This level of ignorance is surprising given the opportunity to search the internet for what's available today. On average the kits achieve 91% of new price, that's including quite old versions that are now available with upgraded castings, etc.

 

The prices achieved have actually dropped from an average of 96% about eighteen months ago. Why? One explanation may be the increasing number of traders operating on ebay, some of whom don't seem to have a clear idea of what they are selling, describing it badly or inaccurately. Some may be put off by this, although others may see the opportunity to get a bargain. Some products sell against this trend, notably D&S etched kits, usually described as rare or no longer obtainable (Danny is still producing the 4mm kits as per his 2005 list when he has sufficient demand).

 

Your point that there is less need to build kits as RTR ranges get bigger cannot be argued. However, there are many, many more models available as kits than the RTR manufacturers do (or probably ever will) supply. If you prefer to model a specific era/area/railway - rather than just buy whatever gets made in China - then you  will need to build kits or from scratch. The latest MRJ or the first issue of FRMR illustrates that.

 

Jol

 

p.s. I haven't bid for your D&S LNWR kit on ebay, I'm waiting for Bill's new kits (I've paid the deposits).

Re D&S they probably go for silly money because

 

1. Lack of knowledge as to prices.

 

2 . Dan hasn't even got a email address which lets face it is a bit naff for 2014 . As a result buyers can't be bothered to contact D&S (thats if they even know he is still trading) and buy from ebay as its simple and easy to pay for , the seller has to do all the leg work too. 

 

3 As per 2 some people quite happily go for the easy option when buying any item.

 

4. The thrill of winning ( or shopping) gives people a buzz. It can easily become a addiction , ask the wife !!

[EHertsGER]

One small thought that is totally related to my own experience around kitbuilding is that I am now a more confident modeller. I cite the example of a kit I bought and began to build, finding all sorts of things that were not so much wrong as just annoying. So I fiddled and fettled, added, subtracted, tweaked and adjusted until it came to fabricating. Then I learned how to use a fretsaw. Then I figured out how to make brake blocks that don't short out the chassis (and don't look like a sheep in a sack) and so,on. And the thing worked!

 

Lessons learned were repeatable and scalable to the point that 'I can do that...' was/is my approach to the specifics of building my chosen prototype (layout, in toto, not just a locomotive). And proficiency witha fretsaw has also defeated the carpet dragon so if it 'gets' a part I dropped I make another one.

 

If your aim is 'making' then kits will hold your hand just long enough - much like your parent/teacher did when you learned to swim - for the kit to become undaunting and opening the box and getting stuck in is second nature. Then there is scratchbuilding, which, in our world of etched this and that is no more than a kit without parts or instructions...enjoy!

 

If, however, your main aim is 'running' then get thee to Hattons (or your local club) and enjoy as well!

 

There are some of us out here that do both...but we don't get out very often (having too much fun!)

 

Best,

Marcus

[Jol Wilkinson]

Re D&S they probably go for silly money because

 

1. Lack of knowledge as to prices.

 

2 . Dan hasn't even got a email address which lets face it is a bit naff for 2014 . As a result buyers can't be bothered to contact D&S (thats if they even know he is still trading) and buy from ebay as its simple and easy to pay for , the seller has to do all the leg work too. 

 

3 As per 2 some people quite happily go for the easy option when buying any item.

 

4. The thrill of winning ( or shopping) gives people a buzz. It can easily become a addiction , ask the wife !!

Mick,

 

1. Very true, but a look at other traders websites/pricelists will give some idea - with a couple of exceptions most traders have fairly comparable prices.

 

2. Remembering that he had retired and that he lost his wife very shortly afterwards, it is not that surprising that he hasn't set up a web presence to promote sales. However, it is something he said he was looking into when I last spoke to him on the telling bone.

 

3. Agree.

 

4. True, but sometimes it seems that people do seem to entirely disengage their brains when paying for something.

 

Danny can be contacted by phone. Those that have bought from him in the past may have an old pricelist with his address. The online BT phone directory will quickly come up with his contact number.

 

Jol

 

p.s. this has little to do with the future of loco kit building as, to my knowledge, D&S never did any loco kits. It is however, another example of how "fragility"  of the small suppliers side of our hobby, when one company's demise can have a major impact on those of us whose hobby is making models not available from the RTR manufacturers.

[Thane of Fife]

I buy kits to build,because I enjoy building them. 

Over the last 12 months, I have bought four via Ebay. I have nearly finished the first of these, as I've been building kits that I bought previously. It gives me pleasure to watch a loco on the track and say to myself; "I built that".

I have a list of locos that I would like to build, and if one crops up at a reasonable price, then I bid on it. Sometimes I win, sometimes I just miss out, and other times I wonder why someone has bid over the odds.

Different people get pleasure in different ways. I admire the skill people show converting a R-T-R item, as I will probably attempt conversions myself, when I cannot buy a kit of the loco that I desire.

I do not understand how people can collect unmade kits, but they are welcome to enjoy the hobby in their own way.

 

Thane of fife

[Horsetan]

Re D&S they probably go for silly money because

 

....2 . Dan hasn't even got a email address which lets face it is a bit naff for 2014 .....

 

Maybe Dan doesn't really want to be bothered by electronic communication. He'd never get any sleep otherwise....

[Cleefy]

Maybe Dan doesn't really want to be bothered by electronic communication. He'd never get any sleep otherwise....

 

He won't be bothered by me, as I have absolutely no idea what he sells.

 

What is it with kit manufacturers and this frankly bizarre business model? Create a range of products. Produce a single, hand-written catalogue and hide it under the mist-shrouded, mountainside eyrie of a rare Tanzanian eagle. Fit a device to your phone that administers 20kV to anyone who has the nerve to call you. Only answer written correspondance from those who can prove they are lineal descendants of the Duchy of Burgundy. Attend exhibitions only when the planets are aligned and grant audiences only to those who come proffering a diamond-studded faun's hoof autographed by J D Salinger. It's really rather baffling.