Wright writes.....

[Willie Whizz]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

It is something that does seem strange when the military and aircraft plastic kit market seems very healthy as does the market for the detailing extras and decals.

 

Many of them aren't cheap "throw together in an afternoon" kits anymore. Yet I don't hear moans of having to build a kit, the total opposite in fact. If you look at the plastic kit forums they are eager to build them! You'll even find build videos posted on YouTube.

 

This is an Airfix 1:48 scale Fairey Gannet with an RRP of £55 so about the equivalent price of an etched brass coach kit.

 

https://uk.airfix.com/products/fairey-gannet-14-a11007

 

 

 

Jason

That Gannet looks a beauty … but on following the link it amused me to see that a majority of the paints required to complete it are shown as “out of stock”!

[rowanj]

I like building kits, even if I;m not very good at it. I can think of 3 good reasons why folk are not doing it as much now. And don't tell me- I know there will be others.,,,

 

1. Compared to even a few years ago, it is easier to get an RTR equivalant at a lower price than a complete kit. So my days of building a J27 , Q6 or G5 are long gone. 

 

2. There is an expectation that the kit will just fall together with a bit of Evostick and superblue. Soldering is seen as a "Black Art" ( and I confess I;m pretty poor when it comes to soldering white metal), In addition, you need to do a fair bit of reasearch of the prototype if you want an accurate model, And you have got to be able to get all the parts and relevant transfers etc. And you have to be able to paint it, and sometimes even line it. More and more, the first port of call is to see if ther is a 3D print,

 

3. As John New says, some (many) kits have errors built in. Sometimes it doesn;t really matter- so what if a splasher is 1mm too large/small- and 9 times out of ten they can be corrected, if you know how, and knew it was wrong in the first place, For example, I'm currently building a PDK Hunt, which has about 10 pages of pretty good instructions, The basic fittings go together well, so all should be easy. But the draincocks are wrong compared to the prototype, a prominent lump is missing, and not mentioned, on the LH cylinder cover. And I really struggled to make sense of a bracket fixed to the RH chassis side and how it related to the (very nice) casting) of the Lentz Rotary Shaft. I only worked it out because I had the Tufnell D49 book with lots of pictures. Don't get this right and there's £200 down the drain. And I know I'll find I need to fabricate some body detail which isn't in the kit when I get to that stage.

 

So really, I suggest that, unless you like kit-building, or really want a particular loco, getting started is less and less worthwhile, I'm afraid, Don't think I'm knocking PDK or any other supplier, I have nothing but admiration and gratitude for the folk who continue to produce kits for the likes of me, But I suspect, if I was40 years younger with the disposable income I have now, I'd be teaching myself CAD (if I hadn't done it at school) and buying a 3D printer.

Edited April 6 by rowanj

[Captain Kernow]

20 minutes ago, rowanj said:

So really, I suggest that, unless you like kit-building, or really want a particular loco, getting started is less and less worthwhile, I'm afraid

I certainly agree with that. Back in the 1970s, when I first started building whitemetal kits as a teenager, the choice in RTR was extremely limited and kits actually offered more accuracy and detail than the average RTR product.

 

Today, so much has changed.

 

[MJI]

I want a longer* mineral wagon train, so started the usual bid on Airfix 16T with low bids, did not get any. 4 are 10ft, 4 or 5 are 8 shoe.

 

Anyway will be maximum of 34, aiming for 15 or so. So of course checked thingiverse, printing out 2 at a go, now using ABSlike resin, no topflap conversion, no VB conversion, BUT no suitable for 9ft, so will be attempting my first resin axlebox swap, just need some split ones.

 

Also at the annoying stage of needing a minimum of 6 of a particular loco class, 4 of another, and a lot more of a third.

 

Getting to stage of not another 47.

 

* got a 6 modeled so far of 9 MCV MXV MDV mixed rake

[MJI]

[Coach bogie]

1 hour ago, rowanj said:

 

 

So really, I suggest that, unless you like kit-building, or really want a particular loco, getting started is less and less worthwhile, I'm afraid, Don't think I'm knocking PDK or any other supplier, I have nothing but admiration and gratitude for the folk who continue to produce kits for the likes of me, But I suspect, if I was40 years younger with the disposable income I have now, I'd be teaching myself CAD (if I hadn't done it at school) and buying a 3D printer.

If I was 40 years younger, I would be less discerning, with a much lower expectation level due to ignorance of youth. Greater awareness of the prototype, as you get older is what increased the need to build kits.

 

These days availability of components is a major factor. I do miss the convenience of my local model shops stocking motors, gears and Romford Wheels. 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[rowanj]

6 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

If I was 40 years younger, I would be less discerning, with a much lower expectation level due to ignorance of youth. Greater awareness of the prototype, as you get older is what increased the need to build kits.

 

These days availability of components is a major factor. I do miss the convenience of my local model shops stocking motors, gears and Romford Wheels. 

 

Mike Wiltshire

Obviously I'd need to be 40 years younger with the experience and knowledge I have now. Oh, the fun to be had! Let's make it 55 years.

[Coach bogie]

8 minutes ago, rowanj said:

Obviously I'd need to be 40 years younger with the experience and knowledge I have now. Oh, the fun to be had! Let's make it 55 years.

Now where is that K's bodyline kit and the block wheel Triang Jinty chassis to make things more scale?

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Coach bogie]

I recently had a play with a Hornby Dublo three rail set up. I have to admit, it was great fun. I went home wondering if I had become too obsessed with accuracy and forgotten how to just enjoy the hobby.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Dunsignalling]

38 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

On the question of pricing of kit-built locos, I am aware that a beautifully assembled P4 Pro-scale 'Princess' in BR maroon, built by Alan Sibley, sold very quickly (was advertised on the S4 forum and also was on Ebay). The asking price was £350 (o.n.o.).

 

I don't know if that represented the final price paid (I didn't buy it, despite being tempted (it would have been too big for my little P4 layout anyway).

 

Even for that price, there's no way that you could get a kit professionally built for that, especially one so well finished.

 

 

I'm afraid that the process of building  model locomotives, at least in scales smaller than 7mm, is rather akin to restoring old cars or motorbikes. 

 

You are lucky to recover the input costs, the kit, any extra parts/materials, and paying others for things you can't do yourself. Obtaining any value from your own "labour" is rare.

 

Getting even half ones outlay back from something you've commissioned to be entirely done professionally would represent a major success. 

 

As the man on the telly says, "we do it for love"....

 

 

 

    

[MJI]

That MCV is mainly 3d printed, but LMS buffers, and i fitted brass bearings.

 

Odd it feels softer at 5 second than a 2.5 second test print left in the sun.

 

Will leave todays 4 prints in the sun over the week.

[robertcwp]

As a number of BR Eastern modellers follow this thread, I thought these two images that I have added to my collection might be of interest:

 

Twin-RS-SO_JUL-63 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

E1733-4E_YorkCW_28-9-63 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I'm afraid that the process of building  model locomotives, at least in scales smaller than 7mm, is rather akin to restoring old cars or motorbikes. 

 

You are lucky to recover the input costs, the kit, any extra parts/materials, and paying others for things you can't do yourself. Obtaining any value from your own "labour" is rare.

 

Getting even half ones outlay back from something you've commissioned to be entirely done professionally would represent a major success. 

 

As the man on the telly says, "we do it for love"....

   

Perhaps the "value" of the enjoyment obtained in building a kit is something that is no longer considered of much worth. If/when I have to dispose of my models I know that they won't have much market value (and being pre-group P4 won't help) but does it really matter? I have enjoyed building, running and owning them. That a few people have admired them at exhibitions and they have one won or two awards adds to a sense of achievement.

 

Would I feel the same about amassing a collection of RTR stock and then possibly feeling dissatisfied if I couldn't sell it for most of what I had paid for it? 

[davidw]

56 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

As a number of BR Eastern modellers follow this thread, I thought these two images that I have added to my collection might be of interest:

 

Twin-RS-SO_JUL-63 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

E1733-4E_YorkCW_28-9-63 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Thanks Robert. Aren't those the West Riding twins, which Hornby could potentially make from the coronation tooling?

[robertcwp]

16 minutes ago, davidw said:

Thanks Robert. Aren't those the West Riding twins, which Hornby could potentially make from the coronation tooling?

The twin first is from the 'spare set' and has roller bearings for use in The Talisman. The number on the other one is not readable as it's out of focus.

 

Apart from interior decor and lettering when new, all four sets were the same, albeit there were only two observation cars.

 

The West Riding twin first and one of the Coronation twin brake third/thirds were destroyed in the Huntingdon fire.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Perhaps the "value" of the enjoyment obtained in building a kit is something that is no longer considered of much worth. If/when I have to dispose of my models I know that they won't have much market value (and being pre-group P4 won't help) but does it really matter? I have enjoyed building, running and owning them. That a few people have admired them at exhibitions and they have one won or two awards adds to a sense of achievement.

 

Would I feel the same about amassing a collection of RTR stock and then possibly feeling dissatisfied if I couldn't sell it for most of what I had paid for it? 

Agree wholeheartedly. I buy or build models that satisfy my modelling interests, which have remained constant since I returned to the hobby.

 

Like many others with (then) limited leisure time, and with the step-change in r-t-r standards twenty-odd years ago, My precept became to buy what I could, and use my available time to make what I couldn't. Nothing r-t-r remains as bought except the stuff I haven't yet got round to!

 

I never really took to loco construction (I have a couple of part-built kits overtaken by the advent of more satisfactory r-t-r equivalents) , though I have "saved" a few with   "limitations", having been built by others and acquired for what I judged the usable bits were worth.

 

My real pleasure comes from constructing wagons. Mainly from kits but I have become a keen "hacker" with a weakness for "cross-breeding" r-t-r models and/or kits to produce better or otherwise unobtainable models.

 

I haven't fully scratch-built any, but I satisfy my appetite for that by modelling buildings.

 

Thing is, though, I've never sold anything bought or built in line with my core interests, though "wide of scheme" temptations have often been moved on (usually at a loss).

 

I have no dependents and I frankly don't care how much my executor might raise from selling my models when I'm gone. I'd far prefer the "personal" ones to end up with new owners, preferably younger members of clubs and groups I've been in over the years, who will hopefully enjoy them as much as I have. 

 

If they leave my initials in place underneath, that'll be sufficient reward.  

 

John

 

Edited April 6 by Dunsignalling

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, gr.king said:

 

When I read that, I firstly assumed that the 't' in tears was a typing error, but then I thought that it might be nearer the truth. Maybe there are some zeros missing from '50' though?

It was a typo Graeme,

 

But you rescued it!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Thanks, I have far too many carriages anyway!

Good evening Robert,

 

All the ex-LMS carriages have gone, and most of the ex-GWR ones sold today.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[robertcwp]

28 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Robert,

 

All the ex-LMS carriages have gone, and most of the ex-GWR ones sold today.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

No problem. 

[Clive Mortimore]

12 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Robert,

 

the only sure way to get all four wheels to sit on the track is to spring or compensate the axles. Despite what many think, track is rarely absolutely flat.

 

However, with OO/EM  wheel flanges it shouldn't be too difficult the build a a short wheelbase vehicle or bogie that will remain on reasonably well built track without falling off. There are occasions where a flange meeting a badly made/fitted switch blade will lift and derail, but that is a another issue.

 

Jol

Hi Jol

 

Short wheelbase, Peco track plonked on my carpentry wood bodging, not compensated and only falls off when pushed from the side. The biggest problem I find with bumpy track and short wheel base locos is pick up issues, so good wheel to pick up wire contact is needed if only one wheel is in contact with the track. That becomes quite hard when using 14mm driving wheels.

 

It isn't a simple 4 wheeled chassis, it has 3 axles, the third for the flycranks. Built for fun and was fun building it.

 

I must be a pillock or something I still have more scratchbuilt locos than kit ones. Of course far more RTR than I ever need.

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

14 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

I completely agree. I still get surprised by the amount of dirt that accumulates on my OO and P4 stock, despite my having a very strict (almost draconian - just ask my friends who have helped me at shows in the past!) track cleaning policy.

 

May I ask what that policy is?  I find it oddly fascinating, all the various techniques and tricks that some swear by, while others swear at.  All the many variables turn such a simple situation into an extremely complex and intricate problem to solve.

 

My regards,

Rohan

[john new]

9 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

Now where is that K's bodyline kit and the block wheel Triang Jinty chassis to make things more scale?

 

Mike Wiltshire

The lost mid-way house between advanced beginners moving into kits and those with enough skill then become expert builders. I agree that was a past era, and yes the results had deficiencies, but it is the baby and bath water scenario.  Taking out that progression layer took out the associated learning curve for building and then painting kit built items. The key aspect once white metal bodies using adapted r-t-r chassis disappeared was building valve gear. The stopper item.

[Iain.d]

I think the conversation between kits and ready to run will be ongoing! I believe they both have a place in our hobby. I like making kits, it gives me something to do, it’s a sense of achievement and I can see progress and improvement (generally) in my ability. But I have no issue in seeing something in a shop, or online, and thinking, ‘ooh, I’d like one of those’.

 

This week I finished a kit by @macgeordie of an LNER Thompson 6-wheel NPCCS BZ. It came with everything needed less wheels and couplings and included a CD-ROM of build images and instructions. The only thing I did differently to the instructions was that, to represent the door bumps/stops, I drilled out the half-etched holes and soldered in .45mm wire as opposed to pressing them out. I think they look a bit neater.

 

 

It's finished in BR Maroon (Tamiya TS-11) and lined with a pen. The kit also provides for glazing (a transparent sheet with the window outlines printed on it) but I opted for cut glass.

 

 

Like the two Siphon G’s I recently completed, it was a pleasure to build. I think it captures the look of the prototype really well.

 

 

I seem to have a bit of a thing for 6 wheels stock and think this one compares favourably with a Comet Models Stove R that I completed a couple of years ago. In due course they'll both be weathered.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

[thegreenhowards]

Tony,

 

Regarding the price/ value of kits, I think you’re comparing the price of new RTR locos with second hand kits. Surely a fairer comparison would be the price of a second hand RTR loco which is typically quite a bit lower - £100-£150 for a modern tender loco. Less than £100 for an older tender loco like a Bachmann A1.

 

I think the price obtainable for working well built second hand kits is very comparable or better than those prices. 
 

Andy

 

 

 

 

[Kirby Uncoupler]

20 hours ago, robertcwp said:

As a number of BR Eastern modellers follow this thread, I thought these two images that I have added to my collection might be of interest:

 

Twin-RS-SO_JUL-63 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

E1733-4E_YorkCW_28-9-63 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Thanks Robert, these are two very useful photographs. Apart  from the roller bearings and added centre door detail on the Twin First, look closely at the guttering. It's not continuous at either end, with sections removed?    BK