Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

I have built one , I can confirm she doesn't like curves very much. The main problem is the rear "support"wheel where a Cartazzi would be , due the length of the Loco and it being fixed with zero movement. No wonder they were nicknamed Skittle Alleys in their day.

I built one as well Mick,

 

I managed to get it to go round three foot radius curves without too much trouble, mainly by making the chassis electrically dead. 

 

The one for sale will go round three foot curves as well. 

 

As Alastair (Barry Ten) has mentioned, a good-running loco to me is just that - no jerks, no tight-spots, no shorts, no derailments, able to pull a prototype load and work sweetly, smoothly and quietly. I always make sure that anything I offer for sale on behalf of others runs as well as I can make it. If it doesn't, then any potential purchaser knows that. Though the monies go to widows/families/charities, it just isn't cost-effective in terms of my time for me to totally rebuild a poor-running loco. That is not the case with the Raven A2; it needs no rebuilding. 

Edited November 20, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

 

The last of the 'rejected' MRJ pictures - not surprising because it's not really the right style. The MRJ leads the way in realistic model photography and is still excellent at it. 

 

I've included this more because of the loco; a Little Engines O4 built, painted and weathered by Tony Geary. Of course, now we have the RTR Bachmann version, at a fraction of the cost of the component parts for this model. But, this is much more a personal creation. I bought it when Tony took up O Gauge. I've built several O4s (and their derivatives) for myself and others, but it's still nice to have such a lovely model as this. Yes, it's my possession now, certainly not my creation, but I can fully appreciate what went into it. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Tony Wright

[glo41f]

Those Raven Pacifics always strike me as rather ungainly and ugly by comparison with his Atlantics. They never achieved the glamour of Mr Gresley's work and that must reflect on the value however good the paintwork and running. This is a highly emotional subject we are looking at. Perhaps it is realistic to feel that a well built model should fetch the sum of its components at the very least. However, there is another dynamic involved here namely the age of the prototype. As Tony mentions it is almost a lifetime since BR stream finished and those of us who remember that are all on the wrong side of 60. So is it really realistic to expect that a model of a prototype built in the early 20th century would command the "real worth" as a price? I have the sad duty of disposing of a late friends stock and equipment. There are 3 exquisite LNWR locos all handmade to a high standard and very well painted but to EM gauge. What value for them? I know of P4 models selling for buttons with purchasers enquiring if they can be converted back to 16.5. It is a crazy world.

 

Tony if the pictures you have rejected for the MRJ article are anything to go by, the ones you have selected must be amazing! Good for the MRJ to consider publishing something that is as base as 00 gauge too... they would not have done that in times gone by!

 

Regards

 

Martin Long

[Norton961]

Tony, looking forward to the MRJ article. Have you thought about doing a DVD of Little Bytham?

If you fancy running a re built Scot here is a photo of heading north from Doncaster in 8-1961, it's a Saltley 21A loco and worked up to Newcastle, but I have no idea where the loco joined the train, Peterborough had connections with the LM region so it might have joined there, but this is only conjecture.

 

Re how much to charge for finished models, the key is getting a particular model in front of likely buyers, so in the case of the Raven Pacific contacting the North Eastern Society may help as lots of modellers are in the Society.

 

David

[The Stationmaster]

Prices for locomotives, both unassembled and finished, seem to be all over the place. I've been keeping a careful eye on ebay over the last year or so, looking out for various things, including GWR

tenders. One day that same search brought me to a partly assembled Wills Castle, complete with tender, chassis and wheels, for just a bit over 25 pounds. That would have been a bargain just for

the tender parts, but as the basis for a complete locomotive, it was incredible and I snapped it up. On the other hand, I've seen unassembled or indifferently assembled models sit around at what I'd consider inflated or unrealistic prices, for months on end.

 

Even when a model looks to be built to a good standard, there are a host of risks for the purchaser. What does "good runner" mean? If Tony says something runs well, we all know what he means, but to someone else, it could be called a good runner just because it moves under power. As mentioned above, minimum operating radius is also a concern and it'll rarely be mentioned in the description. And if the loco turns out to need some attention, how easy will it be to dismantle, tweak etc?

 

Buying unassembled or part-assembled models seems to be a slightly safer option to me as at least then you've got the option of making them run to your standards.

 

It can be a major expense buying unassembled 'mint' condition kits.  A very good lot came up at auction a few years back including a couple of the former Cotswold South Wales constituent 0-6-2Ts with the castings in original wrappings but about 10 kits - all 'mint' - forming the total lot.  I was quite happy to go to about £150 for the lot and sell on, via RMweb, at sensible prices the ones I didn't want but a dealer very clearly decided there were £ signs flashing in front of his eyes and outbid me although I had a bit of amusement in pushing him up to £200.

 

The kit which really interested me appeared on Ebay within a couple of days - claiming to be complete with wheels (it wasn't) and at a buy-it-now price of £125, far more that I was prepared to pay for a single kit.  But the man knew what he was at and it eventually went for in excess of £150 - I didn't follow what happened to all the kits he had bought but he definitely got over £1,000 in total for the ones I kept an eye on.

 

Was it his greed, my stupidity in not outbidding him and selling on for myself, or people daft enough to get into bidding wars and lining his pockets?  I don't know the answer to that one but there are people out there who clearly regard complete unmade kits as a valuable trading commodity while others simply pay the prices or are happy yo bid up.  The best bargains always seem to be part built kits or not very well put together or painted complete locos.

[Focalplane]

I would have thought that unmade kits no longer in production could hold some value but only if the original kit was of a certain quality.  Etched brass/NS kits with brass castings seem to me to be more reliable than those with lots of white metal.

 

This discussion is interesting as it does require a hard look at the demographics.  Over 60s (I would say the right side of 60!) have the buying power, the memories and the desire to build models rather than open boxes.  Many of the older kit makers are in the process of retiring or have already done so.  So it can make sense to invest in a kit and place it on the shelf with every intention of building it later.

 

In terms of limited run numbers the interesting ones quoted for the A2s are far greater than some of Brassmaster's recent runs which only amounted to 50 units.  I am thinking of the 4F and the Princess pacific.

[Tony Wright]

Those Raven Pacifics always strike me as rather ungainly and ugly by comparison with his Atlantics. They never achieved the glamour of Mr Gresley's work and that must reflect on the value however good the paintwork and running. This is a highly emotional subject we are looking at. Perhaps it is realistic to feel that a well built model should fetch the sum of its components at the very least. However, there is another dynamic involved here namely the age of the prototype. As Tony mentions it is almost a lifetime since BR stream finished and those of us who remember that are all on the wrong side of 60. So is it really realistic to expect that a model of a prototype built in the early 20th century would command the "real worth" as a price? I have the sad duty of disposing of a late friends stock and equipment. There are 3 exquisite LNWR locos all handmade to a high standard and very well painted but to EM gauge. What value for them? I know of P4 models selling for buttons with purchasers enquiring if they can be converted back to 16.5. It is a crazy world.

 

Tony if the pictures you have rejected for the MRJ article are anything to go by, the ones you have selected must be amazing! Good for the MRJ to consider publishing something that is as base as 00 gauge too... they would not have done that in times gone by!

 

Regards

 

Martin Long

Thanks Martin,

 

I let Barry and Paul select the pictures for the MRJ. Having been in an editorial seat, the last thing one wants is a prima donna insisting that such and such a picture or piece must go in. I now let editors edit and publishers publish. 

 

I must say it's an immense privilege to have Little Bytham listed to be published next year in MRJ. Speaking with Barry Norman (a marvellous chap), even though it's 'only' OO it's because it's the result of a group making things together - pooling resources to combine their efforts into a 'believable' whole. What they're not really interested in is proof of the power of spending. 

 

I've actually written about two OO layouts which have appeared in MRJ; Stoke Summit and Charwelton. Whether that meant subscriptions ceremoniously burnt and what have you, I don't know. 

 

Though the magazine (quite rightly) caters for the finer end of the market (it still lets LB in though), it has featured some OO modelling, as long as it's high quality.

 

 

 

 

None more so than Alloa, built by another group pooling resources and abilities. Good modelling is good modelling, whatever its gauge. 

 

I think the MRJ's approach is something which appeals to me. It doesn't chase the latest trends, the articles are instructive and in depth and those articles have space to breath. It doesn't tell its readers why such and such is a 'great' layout - its readers are mature enough to come to their own conclusions. 

 

I only hope I don't let it down! 

[Clearwater]

I'm with Mike above - a raven Pacific would be quite something to own. Certainly a cut out of the ordinary. Doubt I'll buy in the auction but I'll certainly go and look the one on Tony's demo bench. I strongly suspect the eBay auction will finish considerably north of £200. Whilst that's not evidence of a market, hopefully it does show the djh's of this world there's still considerable interest in their products, particularly for less mainstream items

 

David

[Brian Kirby]

I have some sad news to report, my old friend and boss Tony Dyer of Kemilway chassis and coach kit fame, has passed away at the age of 83. I've already started a new thread in the Obituaries section, here's the link for anyone interested:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117047-tony-dyer/

 

                                                                                                              BK

[County of Yorkshire]

In terms of s/h prices for kit-built stock, I had an experience of my own today at a swap meet in Lincoln. A trader had 3 boxes of pre-nationalisation wagons, both big-4 owned stock and PO wagons. Some were better than others, but I picked out 9 very nicely built, painted, detailed and, in some cases, well-weather ones, ranging from a Parkside GWR Mica A, a brass Southern cattle wagon on unknown provenance, a lovely little wooden framed LNER 3 plank open (NB origins?), amongst some other LMS, GWR and LNER prototypes that are not currently available RTR. 

 

Even if I could source the kits for these, then proceed to build them, paint them and apply transfers, each of these 9 wagons would come in at £15 - £20 at todays prices, so at least an £135 outlay. 

 

So how much did these set me back? A mere £3 each, and in the event I paid £25 for the 9 that I picked up. I'm not decrying my bargains but again it tells a story about s/h prices in 2016 for me.

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

Edited November 20, 2016 by County of Yorkshire

[Barry Ten]

In terms of s/h prices for kit-built stock, I had an experience of my own today at a swap meet in Lincoln. A trader had 3 boxes of pre-nationalisation wagons, both big-4 owned stock and PO wagons. Some were better than others, but I picked out 9 very nicely built, painted, detailed and, in some cases, well-weather ones, ranging from a Parkside GWR Mica A, a brass Southern cattle wagon on unknown provenance, a lovely little wooden framed LNER 3 plank open (NB origins?), amongst some other LMS, GWR and LNER prototypes that are not currently available RTR. 

 

Even if I could source the kits for these, then proceed to build them, paint them and apply transfers, each of these 9 wagons would come in at £15 - £20 at todays prices, so at least an£135 outlay. 

 

So how much did these set me back? A mere £3 each, and in the event I paid £25 for the 9 that I picked up. I'm not decrying my bargains but again it tells a story about s/h prices in 2016 for me.

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

 

 

These were ten pounds each, which still struck me as a great bargain at the Manchester show a few years ago.

 

 

I'd have felt guilty about paying so little for such nice work, but they've had a few blemishes taken care, and entered service

on my layout, which I suppose is better than sitting around getting damaged and neglected in a second-hand tray.

 

Alastair (Barry Ten)

[St Enodoc]

Mr Samuel, the founder of Shell, when asked about the price of oil, famously said "the price of an article is what it will fetch."

 

I suppose the same applies to kit built locomotives. As a far-from-famous "name" I decided long ago that I would be a fool to think that anything I build would ever sell for more than the component parts, and even then I might be fortunate. It's not that my kit building is worthless to me, far from it. But why would anyone else have a higher opinion?

A timely reminder, Paul, of the differences between cost, price and value.

[St Enodoc]

In terms of s/h prices for kit-built stock, I had an experience of my own today at a swap meet in Lincoln. A trader had 3 boxes of pre-nationalisation wagons, both big-4 owned stock and PO wagons. Some were better than others, but I picked out 9 very nicely built, painted, detailed and, in some cases, well-weather ones, ranging from a Parkside GWR Mica A, a brass Southern cattle wagon on unknown provenance, a lovely little wooden framed LNER 3 plank open (NB origins?), amongst some other LMS, GWR and LNER prototypes that are not currently available RTR. 

 

Even if I could source the kits for these, then proceed to build them, paint them and apply transfers, each of these 9 wagons would come in at £15 - £20 at todays prices, so at least an £135 outlay. 

 

So how much did these set me back? A mere £3 each, and in the event I paid £25 for the 9 that I picked up. I'm not decrying my bargains but again it tells a story about s/h prices in 2016 for me.

 

Cheers, 

 

CoY

In similar vein, I recently bought two second-hand wagons from the BRMA convention bring-and-buy table. They both have, I think, Hornby Dublo BR steel open bodies mounted very neatly on Mainline chassis. I paid AUD 5 (about GBP 3) each for them. After I have fitted DG couplings and renumbered one of them they will make very nice layout wagons.

 

They are both fitted with Jackson wheels and Kadee couplings. I will keep the wheels but will donate the couplings to a friend who uses that type. However, should I have bought the other dozen or so wagons (mostly 21T hoppers, which are of no use to me on the layout) to strip and sell the Kadees and Jacksons separately, in order to turn a small profit? Because this is my hobby and I am not a trader, then obviously not. On the other hand, should the seller have done that before putting them on sale in the first place? Again probably not, because he is not a trader either and even if he were the cost of the time to do so and sell the bits separately might not have been reflected in the sale price, meaning that there would have been no value to him in doing so (and they might not have sold at all in that situation).

[Tony Wright]

Tony, looking forward to the MRJ article. Have you thought about doing a DVD of Little Bytham?

If you fancy running a re built Scot here is a photo of heading north from Doncaster in 8-1961, it's a Saltley 21A loco and worked up to Newcastle, but I have no idea where the loco joined the train, Peterborough had connections with the LM region so it might have joined there, but this is only conjecture.

image.jpeg

 

Re how much to charge for finished models, the key is getting a particular model in front of likely buyers, so in the case of the Raven Pacific contacting the North Eastern Society may help as lots of modellers are in the Society.

 

David

David,

 

What a fantastic picture - many thanks. 

 

I doubt if the loco came up the ECML from Peterborough, if nothing else because there is no west-to-north connection from the LMR (other than that which once existed at Stamford - a Scot going through Ryhall!)

 

I would think it's come up the Midland main line through Burton, Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield, thence to Doncaster. 

 

Regarding LMR engines on the East Coast Main Line, I vividly recall an afternoon's spotting at Botany Bay, just north of Retford. The first Down train was hauled by 60506 WOLF OF BADENOCH (a non-cop). Then an Up train appeared behind 60006 SIR RALPH WEDGWOOD (another non-cop), followed by another non-cop going Down in the form of 61033 DIBATAG. Then the Up boards went off and my brother and I strained our eyes to see beneath the Great North Road towards Sutton. What is it? Not an A3, V2 or B1 - it can't be! But it was, a Mickey!!!!! Everyday fayre at Chester but on the ECML? It turned out it was on a Bradford-Skegness summer working which headed east at Retford and was a Low Moor Class 5 job. The irony? It was a cop. Unlike 60034 LORD FARINGDON which drifted by light engine a few minutes later. Interestingly, I went across Botany Bay crossing on Friday, but didn't stop. There was no imminent train and why bother? 

[45568]

In a similar vein Tony, but in reverse. My family and I were on holiday in Scarborough in 1961. We lived in Birmingham. I, of course, forsook the pleasures of the beach to stand at the end of the long platform, striking up a conversation with a local lad of the same age, (around 10). I was delighted when a train pulled in behind a Gresley V3 tank, my first cop of this class. He just scowled, but we both brightened up as an excursion hove into view. He was extremely happy to cop a Black 5, 44965, from Saltley!

 Me, my feelings are probably best left unsaid!

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

Edited November 21, 2016 by 45568

[asmay2002]

Those Raven Pacifics always strike me as rather ungainly and ugly by comparison with his Atlantics. They never achieved the glamour of Mr Gresley's work and that must reflect on the value however good the paintwork and running.

Common never equals expensive. Models of Gresley's locos are abundant so you wouldn't expect to have to pay much for one. NER pacifics were rare as Hen's teeth both in real life and in model form so you would expect to pay a premium. 

[Tony Wright]

In a similar vein Tony, but in reverse. My family and I were on holiday in Scarborough in 1961. We lived in Birmingham. I, of course, forsook the pleasures of the beach to stand at the end of the long platform, striking up a conversation with a local lad of the same age, (around 10). I was delighted when a train pulled in behind a Gresley V3 tank, my first cop of this class. He just scowled, but we both brightened up as an excursion hove into view. He was extremely happy to cop a Black 5, 44965, from Saltley!

 Me, my feelings are probably best left unsaid!

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

Thanks Peter,

 

It's funny how trainspotting could be 'competitive'. Another 'spotter copping a loco doesn't mean that your already having underlined it is somehow diminished; or does it?

 

I recall an intense sense of annoyance (skoolboy tantrums?) at seeing my cousins cop the D11s I'd already seen at Chester Northgate, when they were transferred over the Pennines. Previously, I'd had the best of both worlds, seeing those D11s from Trafford Park and Northwich (never seen by them, because their father didn't have a car) and also those from Lincoln and Sheffield. Now the whole thing was egalitarian.

 

I also recall being a bit miffed when, previously far away and out of sight Brits from the east (not out of sight to me) were transferred to the LMR and all my local Cestrian mates whooping for joy when BRITANNIA appeared at Chester's walls. I just looked glum, but I'd copped all the Brits, anyway.  

 

Just how much this 'remoteness' and parochialism with regard to loco workings had changed was brought home to me over 30 years ago now. I'd been photographing the various trains with a good friend at Crewe at the start of the six weeks' summer holidays (why do you think I went into teaching?) when 47 555 THE COMMONWEALTH SPIRIT appeared - absolutely immaculate. I took several shots, some of which have been published. A fortnight later, the whole family (wife, kids, mum-in-law) went down to Devon for a fortnight near Teignmouth. Since I don't particularly like children (an asset as a teacher), including my own (though I'm very fond of my wife, and got on very well with her mum), I escaped for much of the time to take railway pictures. After less than ten minutes on the sea wall at Teignmouth, what should appear but 47 555 (now, not quite so clean). I saw it later during the holiday at Dainton and Newton Abbot. I assumed that my first seeing 47 555 was because it had just been shopped at Crewe and was now 'back home'. Not so, because later in the holidays we were up near Darlington, and I was taking pictures near Croft. And, you've guessed it, what came by but 47 555. Finally, just before returning to the chalk face after that fine summer of '84 I was at Broad Street Basin in Wolverhampton, getting side-on shots of the various trains passing when, once again, 47 555 went by. 

 

30 years earlier, what would have been the chances of seeing the same loco within six weeks at Crewe, Newton Abbot, Darlington and Wolverhampton? 

 

I never take the time to photograph what's happening on today's railways (other than steam specials), so I have no idea how wide-ranging any current loco might be. Though I might well offend those who are delighted at seeing polychromatic units and very few freight classes, I find the whole current scene on our railways of no interest whatsoever. In the time taken to scribble this I've seen 91s go past my window (all the same sets), HSTs (again, all the same sets) and a two-car unit of some kind. There might even have been a 'Shed'. 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

I was going to respond with thanks to Larry Goddard's earlier post about the Raven A2, but it seems to have disappeared (the post, not the loco). 

 

When I get the loco, I'll check on any signature underneath it and let folk know.

[petethemole]

Your recollections of 47555 reminded me that it was that loco that inspired me to take up spotting again for a short while. I had a flat that backed onto the main line at Northam junction and my (military in those days) modelling desk was at the window so I watched any loco-hauled train that came by, so I thought "why not?" Between mid-'83 and mid-'87 I had seen the whole of class 47 apart from the Scottish 47/7s. I didn't travel much then due to a low income so the vast majority came past my window. Some were seen on occasional trips to Bristol, mainly at Westbury. I got the impression then that the 47s, before sectorisation,  were effectively 'common user' locos, wherever they were nominally allocated.

[MarkC]

Gents, regarding the cylinders on the Raven A2 model, have they been set slightly further out, in order to allow some extra swinging room for the bogie? I presume that it's the same setup that DJH have used as on the H1, A8, B16? There's some interesting discussions going on elsewhere about clearance issues with DJH A8s, and from the photos on here, they do look to be protruding further than I might have expected. They were impressive beasts to look at, weren't they? But built in a hurry, I fear, so as not to let the GNR steal too much of a march on the NER, with Grouping looming. Gorgeous model though.

[micklner]

As the Raven A2 is still being mentioned.  

 

City of Durham one of 100 made, this being No 2. Built a while ago , I have just realised it should have Black Tender wheels which will be corrected.

 

 

 

 

 

Re A8 problems 52F Models do a replacement chassis.

[jwealleans]

There's some interesting discussions going on elsewhere about clearance issues with DJH A8s

Whereabouts? I can offer two possible solutions.

[Mallard60022]

 There might even have been a 'Shed'. 

this one by any chance? Common at 36E.

N. Issanhut. 

[Tony Wright]

 

Seeing that LNER locos are being featured, how about this?

 

My young friend from Australia, Jesse Sim, is staying with us for a few days. He's brought this Hornby A4, which he's weathered and detailed. Very nice indeed. 

 

It might well be running on Grantham at the Warley Show over the weekend. 

[MJI]

Just how much this 'remoteness' and parochialism with regard to loco workings had changed was brought home to me over 30 years ago now. I'd been photographing the various trains with a good friend at Crewe at the start of the six weeks' summer holidays (why do you think I went into teaching?) when 47 555 THE COMMONWEALTH SPIRIT appeared - absolutely immaculate. I took several shots, some of which have been published. A fortnight later, the whole family (wife, kids, mum-in-law) went down to Devon for a fortnight near Teignmouth. Since I don't particularly like children (an asset as a teacher), including my own (though I'm very fond of my wife, and got on very well with her mum), I escaped for much of the time to take railway pictures. After less than ten minutes on the sea wall at Teignmouth, what should appear but 47 555 (now, not quite so clean). I saw it later during the holiday at Dainton and Newton Abbot. I assumed that my first seeing 47 555 was because it had just been shopped at Crewe and was now 'back home'. Not so, because later in the holidays we were up near Darlington, and I was taking pictures near Croft. And, you've guessed it, what came by but 47 555. Finally, just before returning to the chalk face after that fine summer of '84 I was at Broad Street Basin in Wolverhampton, getting side-on shots of the various trains passing when, once again, 47 555 went by. 

 

30 years earlier, what would have been the chances of seeing the same loco within six weeks at Crewe, Newton Abbot, Darlington and Wolverhampton? 

 

I was stalked by a DMU for quite a while, wherever I went there it was.

 

I grew up near Gloucester - saw the Bristol allocated Pressed Steel DMUs a LOT, 1985 B430 got painted chocolate and cream, few years later I moved to Worcester, kept seeing a Tysley DMU T305 (guess what colour?), few years later holiday in Cornwall, travelled the Looe Valley in 117 305 (yes again).

 

I even got stalked by a Mark 1 BSK!!!!

 

Travelled on the ECML in it behind 55011, then it got allocated to Gloucester as 977172