Wright writes.....

[gr.king]

So some Mallards are also Spamcans?

[Mallard60022]

This 'Mallard' prefers the Rebuilt versions. I suppose the A4s were spamcans too; just a nicer shape, in some people's eyes, than an original Bulleid. (Oh that's put the cat among the drakes.....).

I accept no responsibility for any insult or offence caused......

Arrrrrr.

P

Edited June 7, 2014 by Mallard60022

[Horsetan]

....the detail on the Hornby product is great, even if the coach turn-under is the wrong profile (still is isn't it?)....

I did wonder if it was possible to come up with a tool, a bit like a woodworker's plane, to shave off the excess plastic and create the turn-under as well. Hmmm.....

[lee74clarke]

My pleasure Lee,

 

It looks like I'm becoming a bit of a loco doctor these days. I'm pleased that all the 'fiddling' I did on the ones you brought succeeded, and, indeed, to reduce the step widths on the (original) W1, make new pick-ups for the V4 and snip some bits off as well (why do builders have to leave 'prototypical' clearances around bogie/pony cut-outs when the locos have to negotiate much tighter than prototype curves?), and sort out the C1, resulted in classes running never before seen on my trainset. I hope you can make the pictures work.

 

As for loco-doctoring, a most enjoyable day was spent yesterday 'fixing' some kit-built Thompson Pacifics on Peterborough North. Well, it ended up enjoyable, but I chased an A2/2's problems for what seemed hours - change the pick-ups, give more clearance to the bogie stretcher, enlarge the curves in the front frames above the bogie wheels and make a new drawbar. Phew! The final cure - the thinnest film of Araldite, applied to those frames, warmed by a hair dryer to make the expoxy  more fluid as it cured. Then, a lick of matt black. Result, no more stuttering, no more binding, no more short circuits. 

 

Next patient, please!

 

Good Evening Tony

Here we go another attempt at getting photo's onto a reply. If you recall, my camera packed up and had to resort to i-phone camera! Well, there is a photo of the Master fettling with the V4, plus said V4, original W1 and C1 hauling the fish vans.

Considering they all needed a slight tweak from your good self, I have to say I was pretty pleased with them. In terms of horse trading, well unless you have any loco's that require adjustment with a lump hammer, I probably can't help masses in return. 

If Gilbert is assisting you with some model gardening, then the best I can do is help Mo with some of the real stuff.

As for the offer of running some more of my loco's, well that is much appreciated. I am not sure if you will be quite so enthusiastic if I turn up with another box full of my old 'stodgers' that need a rebuild.

 

Lee

Edited June 8, 2014 by lee74clarke

[lee74clarke]

Just as an aside to my last post, if anyone has problems attaching photo's to some text, I ended up using Google Chrome instead of standard Google, and the went on with no hassle.

[Bernard Lamb]

Would any one know what became of the tooling for the Gresley roof as used in PC kits?

This was vac formed plastic and seemed to be a reasonable shape. 

Bernard

[Tony Wright]

Would any one know what became of the tooling for the Gresley roof as used in PC kits?

This was vac formed plastic and seemed to be a reasonable shape. 

Bernard

Bernard,

              Many years ago Colin Allbright of Bachmann acquired a fair bit of stuff from Peter Chatham when the latter sold up and retired. It included the lithograph printing equipment for producing the sides (Colin was producing his Ultima coach kits at the time), but whether the vacuum-forming tools were in the deal I don't know. I don't think any more PC Gresleys (or any others) were subsequently produced. A pity really, because the teak finish was especially effective at a few feet away, but in BR carmine/cream the effect was less so because of the lack of surface relief. I gave a rake of five PC teaks to Graham Nicholas for operation on Grantham and they fit in very well. The roofs look right, too. 

[Tony Wright]

photo 1 (4).JPGphoto 3.JPGphoto 2 (1).JPGphoto 5.JPG

 

Good Evening Tony

Here we go another attempt at getting photo's onto a reply. If you recall, my camera packed up and had to resort to i-phone camera! Well, there is a photo of the Master fettling with the V4, plus said V4, original W1 and C1 hauling the fish vans.

Considering they all needed a slight tweak from your good self, I have to say I was pretty pleased with them. In terms of horse trading, well unless you have any loco's that require adjustment with a lump hammer, I probably can't help masses in return. 

If Gilbert is assisting you with some model gardening, then the best I can do is help Mo with some of the real stuff.

As for the offer of running some more of my loco's, well that is much appreciated. I am not sure if you will be quite so enthusiastic if I turn up with another box full of my old 'stodgers' that need a rebuild.

 

Lee

Thanks Lee,

 

I'm glad to see my workbench is still a model for good organisation, efficiency and cleanliness!

 

Still, things get built. 

[Tony Wright]

 

Just as a follow up to PC Gresleys, the train to the left disappearing has a PC Gresley brake. The train alongside is composed of Hornby Gresley stock.

 

 

The K3 on the right hauls the five-car set of PC Gresleys mentioned in an earlier post. It looks like the roof on the leading brake has sagged a bit, but, on a layout, as here on Grantham, they pass not-too-close muster. 

 

 

In BR carmine/cream the effect is not so good. Neither is my overall modelling either. The ends on this PC brake are a bit wonky where they meet the roof and I should have made a better effort to get the Tourist Twins to line up. Still, the Bachmann Scottish 'Director' looks the part. 

Edited June 9, 2014 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

In preparation for Mr Barnatt's 'tutorial' later this week, some more examples of the Comet/Trice/Kemilway overlays on butchered Gresleys.......

 

 

These are a pair of Mike Trice sides as supplied, ready to by made-up and grafted on to another Hornby Sleeper to make a BG.

 

 

The Trice Open Third/Second, Dia. 127 is now finished, complete with interior. Lining is Modelmaster's (I always put it right at the top of the panels rather than exactly where it should be on the central beading because of the difficulty in making any transfer lining lie dead flat on raised detail). The underframe has been weathered. Some of these cars were used as Restaurant Cars and branded thus, though the Pantry Third/Second was preferred. I hope my choice of number is right!

 

 

I've painted the Kemilway Dia. 298 TK, like the SO using Halfords Burgundy Red acrylic car spray. It will be completed by tomorrow. Some of these cars were built for the 'Flying Scotsman' of 1938, so had pressure-ventilation, but a further batch was built later in 1938 with (I assume) standard ventilation. I hope this represents one of those.  

[Mallard60022]

Tony, I assume those MT sides have the panels soldered in the 'holes'? The D127 Open would be the same system if MT?

Were D127s a sort of utilitarian coach that would/could have been used on 'holiday extras'?

I've got a couple of full Kemilway Gresleys somewhere in the loft. I shall go and see if I can find them and if they are of any use I'd be happy to pass them on for a bit of horse trading!!!!!

I really can't see me building them now, even if they are suitable for the Cleethorpes!!

Phil 

[Tony Wright]

Tony, I assume those MT sides have the panels soldered in the 'holes'? The D127 Open would be the same system if MT?

Were D127s a sort of utilitarian coach that would/could have been used on 'holiday extras'?

I've got a couple of full Kemilway Gresleys somewhere in the loft. I shall go and see if I can find them and if they are of any use I'd be happy to pass them on for a bit of horse trading!!!!!

I really can't see me building them now, even if they are suitable for the Cleethorpes!!

Phil 

Phil,

       They do indeed. The whole things look like some large-windowed type of coach as supplied.

 

According to Harris, the larger seats could fit three in for normal service (so 3 - 1 seating either side of an offset aisle) giving a total of 64 places for posteriors. If they were used as Restaurant Cars (coupled to a Restaurant First?), the seating was arranged as 2 - 1. As 3 - 1 cars, they were used extensively on excursion and (latterly) Saturday-only trains. 

 

How many horses have you to trade? 

[davidw]

Tony, I'm probably creating an in appropriate  generalisation, would a BSO also be used in an excursion?

 

The more I think about this th more of a silly question it seems.....

Edited June 9, 2014 by davidw

[gr.king]

Is there a bigger picture of that W1 passing through LB?

[Mallard60022]

Tony, I'm probably creating an in appropriate  generalisation, would a BSO also be used in an excursion?

There were often a couple of Gresley Brakes (or more) in the Eastern stock for the Cleethorpes. Presumably for folks suitcases and similar goodies (prams, noisy children, bikes?)

Phil

Phil,

       They do indeed. The whole things look like some large-windowed type of coach as supplied.

 

According to Harris, the larger seats could fit three in for normal service (so 3 - 1 seating either side of an offset aisle) giving a total of 64 places for posteriors. If they were used as Restaurant Cars (coupled to a Restaurant First?), the seating was arranged as 2 - 1. As 3 - 1 cars, they were used extensively on excursion and (latterly) Saturday-only trains. 

 

How many horses have you to trade? 

Shurgar! Dobbin! That one from War Horse! Champion the wonder one! Now those must be worth a bit of advice?

Thanks for that info Tony.

Comet do the open 3rd/2nd D186; would that do instead of the D127?

The Comet Open Brake 3rd/2nd D196 looks a likely candidate too; would that be a good choice do you think?

Thanks

Phil

Edited June 9, 2014 by Mallard60022

[Tony Wright]

Is there a bigger picture of that W1 passing through LB?

Graeme,

              No, but I can borrow it and take one.

[Tony Wright]

There were often a couple of Gresley Brakes (or more) in the Eastern stock for the Cleethorpes. Presumably for folks suitcases and similar goodies (prams, noisy children, bikes?)

Phil

Shurgar! Dobbin! That one from War Horse! Champion the wonder one! Now those must be worth a bit of advice?

Thanks for that info Tony.

Comet do the open 3rd/2nd D186; would that do instead of the D127?

The Comet Open Brake 3rd/2nd D196 looks a likely candidate too; would that be a good choice do you think?

Thanks

Phil

Phil, and David,

                         You're into territory here where my knowledge is ropey to say the least. 

 

When we did the Stoke trains, we used BR's own documents for making up the principal sets. This was 'easy' because trains like the 'Elizabethan', 'Heart of Midlothian', 'Talismans' and so on tended to be pretty consistent overall. All we had to do was build kits or generate kits as appropriate. The 'other' trains were made up by consulting a mixture of BR's own documents, and loads of photographs. Most pictures seem to be taken on Saturdays when the service was different (the Elizabethan stock still ran but not non-stop and the train was supplemented with extra cars). A lot of Saturday trains, particularly in the summer, were extras or reliefs made up of a wide variety of stock - Gresley, Thompson and Mk.1s. A lot of this would be open stock, for this was popular on excursions (families wanting tables for eating meals?). Just as an example (not found in any of my BR documents), in Steam Colour Portfolio Eastern & North Eastern Regions by Keith Pirt, on page 10 there's a shot of an A1 on a Down train at High Dyke taken in 1962. The train appears to be Mk.1 BSK or BSO, Mk.1 SO, Thompson SO, then an articulated pair of TSOs from the Gresley Tourist stock, then an end-door Gresley (could be an SO), then another Mk. 1 and so on. No catering cars appear to be in evidence. Several trains would have generous baggage accommodation, especially sets heading for the holiday resorts, so a full BG might be in a rake as well as two brake vans. 

 

Mr Barnatt is the one to ask. I just build 'em.

 

Any more questions I can dodge answering? 

[great northern]

One slight correction - that SO is to Dia 27, not 127. Definitely used as dining cars even in BR days, as they are shown as having 48 seats when next to a Restaurant Car. The Dia 186 second was designated TSO, the T standing for Tourist, so I reckon they would be a good bet for excursion traffic. Pre war they were used with open brakes, so that probably continued in the 50's.  Dia 186 probably better for you Phil.

 

Barnatt.G. still slightly soggy, after golf today, and very nearly 69.

[Mallard60022]

If I could do eighteen holes in 69, especially when soggy, on anything other than a pitch and putt, I'd be 'smokin'......

Thanks for that Gilbert. Now then, do I do 4 Gilbony conversions with sides, or do I order 4 kits from Geoff? Ummmmm, decisions, decisions.

P 

Edited June 10, 2014 by Mallard60022

[Tony Wright]

One slight correction - that SO is to Dia 27, not 127. Definitely used as dining cars even in BR days, as they are shown as having 48 seats when next to a Restaurant Car. The Dia 186 second was designated TSO, the T standing for Tourist, so I reckon they would be a good bet for excursion traffic. Pre war they were used with open brakes, so that probably continued in the 50's.  Dia 186 probably better for you Phil.

 

Barnatt.G. still slightly soggy, after golf today, and very nearly 69.

Thanks Gilbert,

                          Maths was never my strongest subject (only 100 out isn't bad!), but I'm glad the general description fits the bill.

 

 

Anyway, here are the two previously-mentioned cars completed. Their position in the rake is wrong, but posed for photographic purposes. What's interesting is how the Kemilway car looks a bit wider - that's because it is. The construction of the sides results in two full layers of brass, not a pair of half-etched sides combined to make a full thickness like Trice or Comet. Thus, though the complete Kemilway kit is a work of etched art, might I suggest (partly because of their complexity) that they're best built as kits and not used as overlays? In fairness, Kemilway sides were never designed as overlays for a mutilated plastic donor. Comet and Trice sides are sold as separate entities if one wishes - I don't know if Kemilway does this.

 

The presence of the BR roundel is probably incorrect for a non-catering car or Sleeping Car of Gresley origin. I put it on to see the effect, though it can be easily removed.

 

The Car acrylic paint gives a gloss finish (which I like and leave). Contemporary prototype pictures show many BR maroon cars as being quite shiny, whatever their origin. I just weather the underfames, which makes them look natural in my opinion. 

 

 

Now that her 247 Developments' plates are fitted, SUN STREAM is complete, and also the complete opposite of anything shiny. As previously-mentioned, as a layout loco she fits into my scheme perfectly and the Bachmann/King combination to produce these Thompson Pacifics is meritorious indeed. Had I built her from a DJH kit, and asked Ian Rathbone to paint her, it would have been scandalous to obliterate his superlative work with blobs of matt browns, greys and black. Since York's big locos (and smaller ones) were seldom pristine, have I produced an A2/3 in 50A's most typical condition? She contrasts nicely with the gleaming carriages.

[coachmann]

The Car acrylic paint gives a gloss finish (which I like and leave). Contemporary prototype pictures show many BR maroon cars as being quite shiny, whatever their origin. I just weather the underfames, which makes them look natural in my opinion. 

Agreed. I know people have taken on board weathering in recent years and it is a good thing so long as a sense of proportion is retained. Except for the odd ex-works vehicle, I spray my layout coach roofs and underframes matt black nowadays after noticing my earliest efforts weathered naturally over time due to dust and what-not. But maybe a shed environment is dustier than a proper room.

Edited June 10, 2014 by coachmann

[Barry O]

Agreed. I know people have taken on board weathering in recent years and it is a good thing so long as a sense of proportion is retained. Except for the odd ex-works vehicle, I spray my layout coach roofs and underframes matt black nowadays after noticing my earliest efforts weathered naturally over time due to dust and what-not. But maybe a shed environment is dustier than a proper room.

I do weather roof areas and underframes.. but also around the door frames as this show up the doors.

 

I haven't got a good shot of a gresley in Maroon but ....

 

 

notice  the differing roof colours...

 

and a bit of unframe dirt..

 

[coachmann]

Useful photos Barry. Those who apply 'weathering' in the corners of raised panels might like to note that the accumulated muck in the corners is often less than the width of lining out. In fact I apply this as lining in dark brown as it also acts as a shadow and highlights the beading.

[Clive Mortimore]

DSC_7649.JPG

 

 

The presence of the BR roundel is probably incorrect for a non-catering car or Sleeping Car of Gresley origin. I put it on to see the effect, though it can be easily removed.

 

Hi Tony

 

From "British Railways Lettering and Numbering of Coaching Stock" http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRCoachLetteringIssue.pdf

"BR Emblem drawing No. DV 97

Required on motor vehicles of multi-unit electric and diesel trains.

Also loco hauled vehicles running in named trains.

This emblem should be placed on the bodyside as near as possible to the centre of the vehicle while preserving the balance of the lettering, etc."

 

As stock was removed from named trains for repair or replaced by newer coaches so there was a number of coaches running in non-named trains with the BR emblem*.

 

The ER and NER seem to have kept to this practice. The LMR must have had a job lot because they liked to add the emblem to every other coach.

 

The WR chocolate and cream stock was introduced on named trains, so should have had the emblem, some chocolate and cream trains ran without the emblem.

 

The SR only applied them to the Royal Wessex set and some boat train coaches.

 

No idea what they done north of Hadrian's Wall.

 

* For a certain manufacturer, it is an emblem not a crest, these have crest https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=great+crested+grebe&client=firefox-a&hs=nV9&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=HmeXU-ixDsffPfeygPAN&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1360&bih=634

[coachmann]

When it comes to roundels on coaches, the safest bet is always a photo and, as a bonus, knowledge of the running number. Sounds obvious dunnit, but whereas 'we' go to great lengths to get locos right in every detail, coaches are a different matter. I am occasionally asked to put an SC prefix on a coach, no easy task compared with finding detail of a particular locomotive.

Edited June 11, 2014 by coachmann