RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 5, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 5, 2014 Apologies ----- I'd like a "blown up A4"; much better than another 'blown up' item I'm told one can purchase from an 'Adult Shop' (there's one of these shops just off the A1 south of Grantham.... ) Anyway, good on ya Tony. I've been waiting to tell persons unknown that chat about Tornado should not be in the Preservation section of RMWeb, but in Prototype Discussions. At last someone else has confirmed my thinking (well sort of). Lovely pics Tony. I think Sir Nigel looks absolutely stunning in that blue livery and that from a BR Green era bloke. I prefer Tornado in BR Green. In conclusion, I really enjoy reading all this chatter about the detail differences on ER Pacifics. Wish I had the same knowledge of the BR SR ones even though there were fewer detail differences. P P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
landscapes Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) The A2/1s did not have the extra ventilators over the crew's seats, at least not according to the Isinglass drawing. I cannot see any in the pictures I've scrutinised, either. With regard to the relative heights of the cab and tender apexes, when first equipped with eight-wheeled tenders (and 60507 inherited its from the blown-up A4) the height at the rear of the cab was 12' 10 and three sixteenths" (the height at the front was 13' 1" because of the ventilator) and the height at the front of the tender 12' 8 and seven eighths". By BR days this had been reduced to 12' 1". So, looking at the beautifully-finished model of 60509, I'd say the tender front is too low, but not by a huge amount. As for the painting of the tender top turn-over and the piece on the cab between the eaves and the horizontal rainstrip, might I offer the following photographic 'evidence', please? Granted, these locos are in preserved condition (apart from 60163 which is yet to be preserved) and are indicative of the condition they were in when I took the pictures. That said, particularly with regard to 60007's condition, I asked about the black-painting above the beading when I saw her at Pickering and was told that that was the BR official painting spec'. 4464 14 6 13.jpg 4492 16 4 11.jpg 60007 21 6 08.jpg 60009 23 11 13.jpg 60019 4 7 08.jpg 60019 15 5 10.jpg 60163 11 6 13.jpg 60163 14 8 10.jpg 60163 23 5 09 08.jpg 60163 30 6 12.jpg Hi Tony Seeing your superb photos set me in the mood to look at some of my ECML pacific locomotives when I was more active travelling around photographing them and attending organised photographic steam charters. Hope you don't mind me posting a couple, one photo shows all four of them all together, memories of Top Shed. Regards David Edited June 5, 2014 by landscapes 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee74clarke Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Good Evening Tony A quick thank you for Sunday, a great few hours viewing Bytham and even better, some of my loco's have been given a new lease of life! Also, thank you for the 'goodies' that you dropped in to my folks. I have tried to get a few photo's uploaded, but the PC is not happy with them, will keep trying though. I was especailly pleased with the W1 and the V4, and after some fettling, the V4 ran a treat. The C1 was a bit like me, probably passed it's best, and slightly smelly and hot after some running. The A2/3 from Derek went well, even if a bit noisy. Derek, if you read this, Tony was interested to know the builder. Tell Mo I shall attack the garden with strimmer as soon as I get a minute. Will most likely see you at the weekend. Lee 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 Looks like PDK have made a bit of a boo boo as this is a A2/1 on their site http://www.pdkmodels.co.uk/pic%2040.jpg Hi Tony Again many thanks for helping to solve my PDK model problem. I am sorry to say but I think micklner is quite correct in that the example shown in a white metal and brass finish on PDK's own web-site has a higher tender and does not show the extra roof vents as well. I will be taking this issue up with PDK to see what they have to say. Great photos of Tornado and preserved LNER pacifics racing on the ECML. Regards David Thanks David, How the World turns............... The picture of 60509 WAVERLEY off PDK's website posted by you and Mick is of the one I built many years ago when Dave King had just started PDK, having sold Crownline. I built it for a review in BRM. It might even be a Crownline one - the memory fades.......... Ian Rathbone beautifully painted her in early-BR guise, and I took the picture as well. A proper picture, on film, with a wacking great camera with movements - no mucking around with puny digital cameras - that negative could be enlarged to the size of wall in a big room! Clearly, I fitted no extra roof ventilators and that tender looks to be the right height. I can't recall altering it, but the faculties crumble as the years progress. A sold it to a guy who was chuffed to bits - it raced round his large layout hauling a full-length train. I hope he's still chuffed, because the locos I built on commission are guaranteed for the rest of my life. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Apologies ----- I'd like a "blown up A4"; much better than another 'blown up' item I'm told one can purchase from an 'Adult Shop' (there's one of these shops just off the A1 south of Grantham.... ).... There's another one on the northbound A1 near Biggleswade.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 Good Evening Tony A quick thank you for Sunday, a great few hours viewing Bytham and even better, some of my loco's have been given a new lease of life! Also, thank you for the 'goodies' that you dropped in to my folks. I have tried to get a few photo's uploaded, but the PC is not happy with them, will keep trying though. I was especailly pleased with the W1 and the V4, and after some fettling, the V4 ran a treat. The C1 was a bit like me, probably passed it's best, and slightly smelly and hot after some running. The A2/3 from Derek went well, even if a bit noisy. Derek, if you read this, Tony was interested to know the builder. Tell Mo I shall attack the garden with strimmer as soon as I get a minute. Will most likely see you at the weekend. Lee My pleasure Lee, It looks like I'm becoming a bit of a loco doctor these days. I'm pleased that all the 'fiddling' I did on the ones you brought succeeded, and, indeed, to reduce the step widths on the (original) W1, make new pick-ups for the V4 and snip some bits off as well (why do builders have to leave 'prototypical' clearances around bogie/pony cut-outs when the locos have to negotiate much tighter than prototype curves?), and sort out the C1, resulted in classes running never before seen on my trainset. I hope you can make the pictures work. As for loco-doctoring, a most enjoyable day was spent yesterday 'fixing' some kit-built Thompson Pacifics on Peterborough North. Well, it ended up enjoyable, but I chased an A2/2's problems for what seemed hours - change the pick-ups, give more clearance to the bogie stretcher, enlarge the curves in the front frames above the bogie wheels and make a new drawbar. Phew! The final cure - the thinnest film of Araldite, applied to those frames, warmed by a hair dryer to make the expoxy more fluid as it cured. Then, a lick of matt black. Result, no more stuttering, no more binding, no more short circuits. Next patient, please! 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 More busy days...... Progress on the Jamieson V2 has been reasonable. These really are classic kits - no tabs, no slots, no surface detail, no witness marks for handrail pillars or what have you. Just several pieces of nickel silver and brass, mostly formed to a basic shape where necessary but some further shaping being needed. For some reason I had a spare set of etched cabsides from a Crownline kit, I think. How or why I obtained these has long been expunged from my memory. Still, they fit and it saves the pain of adding window beading. And today, another session with Mr Barnatt, assisting him to make another of the umpteen more conversions of Hornby Gresleys he needs for Peterborough North. This time it's a Comet sides Four-Compartment Brake Third, fitted to a Hornby Sleeper. The four battery boxes were cut off, but the roof detail is still to be altered. 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Hi Tony, Just catching up on the thread after being away. To which diagrams will you be converting the Gresley's? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 6, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 6, 2014 Also Tony, can you please remind me again what the donors are as new Gresleys are expensive and I believe you may be using the older types, of which there are many (in LNER teak) on Ebay at a good price. Gilbert's doing a grand job. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) Hi Tony, Just catching up on the thread after being away. To which diagrams will you be converting the Gresley's? Diagrams, diagrams? I really haven't a clue! Gilbert brings the donors and the replacement sides (he knows the diagrams) and away we go. I do the bits where there is no 'delete' function - slashing away the Hornby sides with a circular saw, then 'knifing' and filing back to just below the cornice, tack-soldering the etched overlays, tack-soldering droplights and so on. He then completes the solder seam, cleans up, finishes off the droplights, glues one side on (though he'll eventually do both) and puts a new cantrail on from microstrip. He also modifies the interiors. I arrange how to fix the new body to the chassis, and away he goes - another coach to the good. One a week 'til we've done them. In return, he'll be doing some 'gardening' on my trainset. Edited June 6, 2014 by Tony Wright Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 Also Tony, can you please remind me again what the donors are as new Gresleys are expensive and I believe you may be using the older types, of which there are many (in LNER teak) on Ebay at a good price. Gilbert's doing a grand job. P Phil, The donors so far have been Hornby Gresleys in carmine and cream, though there might be some maroon ones to come. The coach done today started life as a Sleeping Car, which Gilbert obtained for a tenner (I think) off ebay. He's also acquired some from friends. As to the costs, I really don't know, though I suppose if I wreck one I should enquire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Hi Tony, Just catching up on the thread after being away. To which diagrams will you be converting the Gresley's? The brake third is a D114, the most common 4-compartment brake third built from 1930 onwards. As regards donors, the Hornby Sleeper is the only model with turnbuckle trussing, so care needs to be taken when using it. I have forgotten when angle trussing was introduced.....1932-ish??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 The brake third is a D114, the most common 4-compartment brake third built from 1930 onwards. As regards donors, the Hornby Sleeper is the only model with turnbuckle trussing, so care needs to be taken when using it. I have forgotten when angle trussing was introduced.....1932-ish??? Very useful information Larry. I could do with some trussing donor Gresleys. Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Very useful information Larry. I could do with some trussing donor Gresleys. Cheers! It might be me being ham-fisted or the nature of narrowing the underframes, but I managed to break the plastic turnbuckle trussing on several occasions. This forced me into looking for alternatives and I found the really excellent MJT etched kits from Dart Castings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 It might be me being ham-fisted or the nature of narrowing the underframes, but I managed to break the plastic turnbuckle trussing on several occasions. This forced me into looking for alternatives and I found the really excellent MJT etched kits from Dart Castings. Larry, I didn't narrow the underframes, but still managed to break the turnbuckle trussing on one side. I don't think it's being ham-fisted, it's just so delicate. And, yes, early-'30s for the introduction of the angle trussing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted June 6, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 6, 2014 I had a Hornby Gresley first which got cut up to make the Dia 155 2nd, and the sleeper which got sliced and diced today was indeed a nice cheap E- Bay purchase. I've a couple more firsts on their way , and they will get the same treatment, but I think after that Tony may have persuaded me to go for full kit builds instead, as whatever we do with the conversions they will still be compromised. I'm trying to work out clever ways of getting the most benefit from the least possible number of coaches, but as I find clever more difficult than it used to be, that is taking some time. I'm very pleased with progress though so far. We can get a coach to this stage in a day, and this one was somewhat more complex than the first one. I'm even beginning to appreciate the delights of soldering, though still very much a member of the Mr Blobby school. I can't work up any enthusiasm for the scorched fingers though. As to which diagrams, well, common sense would dictate concentration on the more numerous types, wouldn't it? My mind keeps straying to something more exotic though..... One more Dia 114 brake and a couple of Dia 40 brakes are essential though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 If money for donor coaches is tight, don't overlook the scope for creating scale-length roof + floor + ends by cutting and shutting the old 57 foot Margate "Gresleys" and then grafting brass sides and new underframe features onto these. The joints in the roof have to well-made, the bogies won't be quite as nice unless you add cost by swapping them, and the solebar details may not be as accurate, but only a little work makes the ends look good, the corridor connectors are full height, the turn-under profile on the ends is already correct for receiving the brass sides, and I reckon the roof height is better. You can even cut and shut the interiors of those coaches to suit the new vehicles, paint them to represent wood colours and upholstery, and finish up with a wholly better class of coach....... You don't need two 57 foot coaches to create each full length one if you think about it. You use one coach to provide several short pieces of roof to insert as extensions into several other conversions. The general approach is covered in an article "what I wrote" in an old issue of BRM, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 The 'killer' of all Gresley corridor coaches is the domed roof, which is why I used Hornby donors for sheer convenience. I have samples of plastic moulded roofs but I'm told they are in short supply. This has got to be an opening for 3-D printed domed roofs surely if they can be done for a reasonable price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Isinglass: www.isinglass-models.co.uk/html/isinglass_3d.html 3D roof 52'6" an 61'6" . I've enquired about Thompson roof and this can also be done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted June 7, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 7, 2014 Isinglass: www.isinglass-models.co.uk/html/isinglass_3d.html 3D roof 52'6" an 61'6" . I've enquired about Thompson roof and this can also be done. Pretty reasonable price Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 7, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 7, 2014 Isinglass: www.isinglass-models.co.uk/html/isinglass_3d.html 3D roof 52'6" an 61'6" . I've enquired about Thompson roof and this can also be done. I'm not an LNER afficianado but I had a look at their 3D print stuff at Railex recently and some of it is quite impressive with not so much of the extraneous 'deposit' marking you find on other prints (the material they used is apparently based on corn starch ) but the roofs still appeared to in need of attention from either a fine grade wet & dry or flour paper (can you still get flour paper?). The long roof sections in larger scales reportedly tend to lose their curve over time unless internal support bracing is used but I think the 4mm ones are more stable (their man said) and they looked pretty good although I'm the first to admit my ignorance on the subtleties of carriage roof cross sections Worth checking however if they come in one piece or sections as the print has a maximum length limit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) Just supposing, without making any promises, somebody were prepared to consider casting some Gresley roofs for 61' 6" stock in resin, to match the original Hornby Margate cross-section, and to include dome-ends and gutters, would it be sensible to also include a representation of the mountings for the alarm gear at one end, plus the steps at both ends? I cannot see much of a case for including ventilators, toilet fillers, grab rail mouldings or roof board brackets as these vary a lot from coach to coach. Rainstrips might be justifiable. For coaches shorter or longer than the standards, a cut and shut in the middle of the roof(s) could be used to achieve the desired length, otherwise the roofs would have a paintable smooth finish as supplied. Edited June 7, 2014 by gr.king 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Just supposing, without making any promises, somebody where prepared to consider casting ..... Now that is the sound of somebody talking himself into doing it.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted June 7, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) I've used Comet Gresley roof moulds in the past; perfectly acceptable to my eyes and of course they fit Comet Gresleys! Wizard (51L) do a nice plastic one as well, however it is a slightly different size to Comet's product so beware. Nice moulding though. Not seen the Isinglass ones before; they look great. (Have built some Isinglass van kits; very nice indeed) Haven't looked at MJT recently, but if I remember you need domed ends to fit their extruded aluminium roof. The MJT roof profiles are a better 'shape' I have been told; is this so? Don't suppose the Kirk roof mouldings are still around are they? Thanks for your input gr.king. It was those early Gresleys I was thinking about as they go for a few pounds on Ebay. However, as I am in a position to be able to afford Comet products, I think I'd rather kick myself up the **** and build (and finish - that will be the day) a whole kit rather than do the cutting and shutting. I'd also like to experiment with some MJT sides and Comet parts for variety, but that is getting too complicated for my needs. With a brand new Hornby Gresley being almost as expensive as a kit it can be a bit of a dilemma though as I think the detail on the Hornby product is great, even if the coach turn-under is the wrong profile (still is isn't it?) Those needs are for about half a dozen clapped out Gresleys for the Cleethorpes/Sidmouth/Exmouth (1960 - 62 SO Summer Timetable; July and August) and I reckon Comet & Hornby will do me for those. This is very different to you LNER guys or those that need really accurate representations of LNER/ER stock. My train just needs to look OK and will certainly contrast with the Bulleids, Maunsells, MK 1s and the few ex GWR coaches that will appear. However, the enjoyment of producing something different is strangely enticing P Edit: just seen gr.king's just supposin' (Quo fan?) post - if they are to be as excellent as your loco parts then yes please.............. Phil Edited June 7, 2014 by Mallard60022 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) More a case of flying a kite to see which way the wind is blowing. If everybody has irreconcilably different ideas on the matter of how the roofs should be, there's no point considering the matter further. Edited June 7, 2014 by gr.king Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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