Hornby's 2013 Announcements

[S.A.C Martin]

I'm possibly wrong but isn't that one of Mr Frank's  (LMS) creations???

 

Porcy

 

Hi Porcy,

 

I don't know who built it - but it is definitely the P2 on Roy Jackson's Retford.

 

It may well have been built by someone other than Mr Jackson, as I say I don't know its history.

[Fat Controller]

I wondered about that for years - until a orno

...   ortho...  bird spotter friend told me the Mallard is the fastest flying duck.  OK, Mr 60022?

 

I also think a lot of the LNER names are good, racehorses being a good line, but then there's always a blooper....Andrew K McKosh, anyone?   

 

Here's an OT thought, what other families have two locomotives named for them?  Bibby Line and A Harold Bibby?  I used to work for them.

 

Andrew McKosh was a mine-owner in the North-East, but more significantly, a director of the LNER; those LNER Pacifics not named after racehorses tended to be named after Company directors (hence William Whitelaw) or bits of the Empire.

[Dunsignalling]

I wondered about that for years - until a orno ...   ortho...  bird spotter friend told me the Mallard is the fastest flying duck.  OK, Mr 60022?

 

I also think a lot of the LNER names are good, racehorses being a good line, but then there's always a blooper....Andrew K McKosh, anyone?   

 

Here's an OT thought, what other families have two locomotives named for them?  Bibby Line and A Harold Bibby?  I used to work for them.

Both gentlemen being Directors of the LNER, hence the appearance of their monickers on locos. 

 

Several of the A4s were renamed after Directors of the company and they seem to have weeded out some of the more obscure bird names in the process (e.g. Garganey, Gadwall). I suspect whoever compiled the original list must have been a keen wildfowler.

 

Osprey (later Andrew K McCosh) was, of course subsequently reincarnated as an A1. 

[great northern]

Both gentlemen being Directors of the LNER, hence the appearance of their monickers on locos. 

 

Several of the A4s were renamed after Directors of the company and they seem to have weeded out some of the more obscure bird names in the process (e.g. Garganey, Gadwall). I suspect whoever compiled the original list must have been a keen wildfowler.

 

Osprey (later Andrew K McCosh) was, of course subsequently reincarnated as an A1. 

Sir Nigel himself was the keen bird watcher who insisted on the bird names if I recall correctly. He went a bit far with Pochard though. How many people would know what one of those was?

[Dunsignalling]

Sir Nigel himself was the keen bird watcher who insisted on the bird names if I recall correctly. He went a bit far with Pochard though. How many people would know what one of those was?

I had to Google several of them........

[Ozexpatriate]

 

I do feel that no. 2001 had what is perhaps the finest name of any locomotive ever

Basis for a particularly partisan thread all its own, perhaps?

 

As a Southern sort of chap, I've nevertheless always thought Dean Singles did pretty well both as a class and individually - Atalanta and Fire King come to mind. Lord of the Izzles less so, really.

I have to agree with Ian here. For variety and their particular singularity, the Dean Singles have the best set of names.

 

There's a bit o' everything. Classical heroes, literary heroes, storms (Thunderbolt, Lightning, Tornado, Hurricane), royalty, places, castles.

 

In addition to those Ian listed above, some evocative names include:

Flying Dutchman

Iron Duke

Lorna Doone

Dreadnought

[Guest Belgian]

Changing direction, back to the main theme of this topic, I would like to revisit the subject of Hornby pricing - as experienced in the real world, not RRP.

 

We've all got hot under the collar about Hornby's 'Design Clever' principle and the objective of reducing costs and thus prices to us as consumers, and made little comment about Bachmann. I'm one who can't afford the new retail prices so I look at the likes of Hattons and Rails to try and reduce exposure.

 

I have just done that, and see that each of these two manufacturers have recently released brand-new models, although each uses existing tooling for the tenders. These are Hornby's LNER Thompson O1 2-8-0 and Bachmann's LMS Fowler Compound 4-4-0. Hattons have had recent deliveries of both, with similar levels of detail and decoration. Hornby's R3088 O1 in LNER plain black is shown at £100-00 and Bachmann's 31-931 in LMS plain black is £112-88. Both have 3-pole motors, although Hornby's comes with a flywheel and full pick ups on the tender.

 

In my humble opinion the O1 is a far more complex model and I would expect it to cost me rather more than the relatively-simple Compound. So, who's over charging, or, put another way, whose prices are seemingly more out of reach?

 

Well done Hornby.

 

Jeremy English

[coachmann]

Could be more to it though. If Bachmanns Compound was too cheap it might weaken the NRM's position with their model. The BR lined black Compound is commanding a higher price at Hattons than with Rails of Sheffield so Hattons must consider it is going to be a good seller and doesn't need a sweetener. It's all theory of course. It would be interesting to know which is the better seller, the Compound or the Thompson 01.

[Guest Belgian]

Could be more to it though. If Bachmanns Compound was too cheap it might weaken the NRM's position with their model. The BR lined black Compound is commanding a higher price at Hattons than with Rails of Sheffield so Hattons must consider it is going to be a good seller and doesn't need a sweetener. It's all theory of course. It would be interesting to know which is the better seller, the Compound or the Thompson 01.

 

As always Larry, you have made a relevant observation. Pricing is a very complex subject and the returns that both manufacturers and retailers expect or hope to achieve will vary with their own business models. I am hoping to kick off a discussion about prices which makes comparisons such as you have made in order to try and bring some sense of fairness in modellers' perceptions. I have been as guilty of accepting stereotypes as anyone and (shamefully) have often participated in Hornby-knocking when others have also been indulging. Rueful as I am about apparent 'dumbing down' I have changed my views to some extent but was also somewhat surprised to see that the examples quoted don't appear to support the general opinion in respect of full-detail models (possibly the last such before Design Clever starts to bite).

 

JE

[Dunsignalling]

Could be more to it though. If Bachmanns Compound was too cheap it might weaken the NRM's position with their model. The BR lined black Compound is commanding a higher price at Hattons than with Rails of Sheffield so Hattons must consider it is going to be a good seller and doesn't need a sweetener. It's all theory of course. It would be interesting to know which is the better seller, the Compound or the Thompson 01.

I am also a bit surprised at the extent of discounting on Hornby O1s so soon after release but, if we are making comparisons with any Bachmann models, the O4 (priced between £72 and £99 on Hatton's website) is a more logical competitor than the Compound.

 

The sheer amount of ER material on offer recently is bound to have some effect on prices. Most ER fans will have spent much more than they are used to over the past couple of years and many must be feeling the pinch.

 

Comparatively speaking, the LMS contingent will have funds burning holes in their pockets and a lot of modellers (as opposed to collectors) who want a Compound won't be interested in the O1 and vice versa.

[The Stationmaster]

As always Larry, you have made a relevant observation. Pricing is a very complex subject and the returns that both manufacturers and retailers expect or hope to achieve will vary with their own business models. I am hoping to kick off a discussion about prices which makes comparisons such as you have made in order to try and bring some sense of fairness in modellers' perceptions. I have been as guilty of accepting stereotypes as anyone and (shamefully) have often participated in Hornby-knocking when others have also been indulging. Rueful as I am about apparent 'dumbing down' I have changed my views to some extent but was also somewhat surprised to see that the examples quoted don't appear to support the general opinion in respect of full-detail models (possibly the last such before Design Clever starts to bite).

 

JE

Price comparison is an absolute minefield and even the most logical approach - that of comparing RRP doesn't make sense at times.  I can only assume that even at RRP level the manufacturers are injecting an element of market pricing which in some cases is clearly designed to encourage sales while there is also pricing which I think is probably based on what they expect the average discounter (not the extremists) to do.

 

What is also interesting  - although we are hearing not very much about it - is the way the big two seem to be trying to get aboard the precedent established by the commissioners and aim for retail prices much nearer to RRP level.  Nothing has emerged in detail about what I have heard are Hornby's revisions of their trade terms for the 2013 model year but my (limited) understanding is that it might not suit the deep discounters.  Similarly with 'design clever' I suspect we are seeing Hornby try to set RRP at a level which won't just suit the end market they believe is out there but might also discourage extreme discounting because margins would be squeezed too tightly (and after all outlets which do discount deeply are in competition with Hornby's own direct selling plus the franchised outlets so that is understandable in that way too).

 

But to be honest I doubt we - as the all important end consumer - are ever likely to be privy to the intricacies of pricing policy and what the main manufacturers are aiming to do through such policies.

[Guest Belgian]

Price comparison is an absolute minefield and even the most logical approach - that of comparing RRP doesn't make sense at times.  I can only assume that even at RRP level the manufacturers are injecting an element of market pricing which in some cases is clearly designed to encourage sales while there is also pricing which I think is probably based on what they expect the average discounter (not the extremists) to do.

 

That is precisely why I was making a comparison of 'discounters' prices as real-world prices are all that truly matter, since RRP is officially unsupportable by law. The least amount we actually pay is the only relevant figure, and I suspect a very large proportion of 'switched-on' modellers make reference to Hattons and Rails prices before committing to a purchase.

 

Even those who, honourably, support their local model shops do, I'm sure, receive discounts that make the purchase there at least within spitting distance of the Hattons/Rails prices when postage and other variables are factored in, as well as the 'insurance' aspect of being able to test the model before purchase.

 

JE

[coachmann]

RMweb provides the heads up on new models, the reviews and the end user pictures, which helps enormously and I am pretty sure generates lots of sales. But the reason I know what is going on as regards discounting and promotions is because both Hattons and Rails send out regular emails. A lottery win would be handy right now though!

[The Stationmaster]

That is precisely why I was making a comparison of 'discounters' prices as real-world prices are all that truly matter, since RRP is officially unsupportable by law. The least amount we actually pay is the only relevant figure, and I suspect a very large proportion of 'switched-on' modellers make reference to Hattons and Rails prices before committing to a purchase.

 

Even those who, honourably, support their local model shops do, I'm sure, receive discounts that make the purchase there at least within spitting distance of the Hattons/Rails prices when postage and other variables are factored in, as well as the 'insurance' aspect of being able to test the model before purchase.

 

JE

Not always within spitting distance I think - which is where such comparisons fall down sometimes.   Hattons for example sold the Bachmann SECR liveried Class C at a price which was not very much above the trade price and while that was quite likely a result of a 'price promise' made in an original advert there would be very few if any retailers who could get anywhere near to that level.  That is no doubt an extreme example but with extended delivery times for so many Chinese manufactured models it is perhaps an increasingly critical factor in retailer pricing - either they take the hit of any price inflation or we, the end customers. take the hit.

 

And yes I agree that many purchasers, if not all, will work on the market price but surely the retailers are discounting at steady percentage rates on the trade price which in turn is, usually RRP - X%?  That does not of course allow for a retailer who might decide - if his trade terms allow - to make a further or greater level of discount than his usual percentage or who varies his percentage according to his perceptions of demand.  For instance Hattons were originally advertising the 'Great Gathering' A4s at - I think - £136 each, and that was for a very limited production product which I would have thought is likely, even at RRP, to face pretty high levels of demand.  So what in this case is the market price - is it Hattons' reduction of £33 off RRP or is it going to be those who sell at or near RRP because they know they can,  or who might knock off c.£16-17 as a reflection of their usual percentage cut practice?   I'm not at all sure of the answer except where very high volumes are involved (we don't know what they are either of course) prompt the likes of Hattons to discount hard to achieve quick turnover, achieve a reasonable return, and maintain market share, while others with a smaller market share offer far smaller discounts - or none at all.

[Guest Belgian]

Although I maintain that the RRPs are 'irrelevant' and real-world prices are what count, I have looked at the RRPs of the two locomotives with which I kicked off this sub-topic and I find that the Hornby O1's RRP is £124-99 and the Bachmann Compound is £132-80. Armed with which I reiterate my congratulations to Hornby and would argue that they have been somewhat unfairly targeted as being excessive in their pricing!!!

 

JE

[Guest Belgian]

. . . but I would also reiterate my (much) earlier plea for them not to downgrade their top-line models by deleting the superb detail levels they have achieved in recent times and to abort the 'design clever' approach if it means horrors such as moulded-on handrails on deflectors, cab sides and tenders.

 

I just think they already had it 'right' with high quality models for experienced modellers and Railroad for the less, well, 'fussy'.

 

JE

[GWRLMSLNER]

I have to say that my Hornby locomotives have always performed well and the Grange class models in particular are one of the best runners on my railway. Lets not get too anti Bachmann or Hornby. They are both great companies producing great models. If Hornby concentrate more on their side of the 'toy' market by producing Railroad quality products that is fine by me. The present Railroad were the best available only a few years ago and if they sell well that is great for the company and in the long run for us, the consumer. I guess that 99.9% of Hornby's sales do not come from the likes of us - the people who use this Web site. We are the exception to the rule. Hornby has to satisfy its main target market and that is not the people who build railways that appear in the main railway model magazines.

[coachmann]

I have to say that my Hornby locomotives have always performed well and the Grange class models in particular are one of the best runners on my railway. Lets not get too anti Bachmann or Hornby. They are both great companies producing great models. If Hornby concentrate more on their side of the 'toy' market by producing Railroad quality products that is fine by me. The present Railroad were the best available only a few years ago and if they sell well that is great for the company and in the long run for us, the consumer. I guess that 99.9% of Hornby's sales do not come from the likes of us - the people who use this Web site. We are the exception to the rule. Hornby has to satisfy its main target market and that is not the people who build railways that appear in the main railway model magazines.

Then tell me, why did Hornby decide to start making scale models, and bend over backwards doing it, when the company could have continued down the toy market road?

[The Stationmaster]

Then tell me, why did Hornby decide to start making scale models, and bend over backwards doing it, when the company could have continued down the toy market road?

And Simon Kohler has said that the fact that he managed to achieve that change to greater detail and scale models has been of his proudest achievements in the hobby.  I suppose the simple answer is what has been mentioned so much in this thread - rising production costs, simplifying production and thereby making it more reliable, and 'changing market conditions' i.e. many British model railway and trainset buyers aren't prepared to pay the extra such detail costs as other financial pressures crowd in on them.

[S.A.C Martin]

I think it'll be interesting come February to compare the Bachmann announcements with Hornby. I've been very much encouraged by most of that coming out of Hornby (with a few concerns, aired previously here), but I have a suspicion that we may yet hear a completely different message coming out of Barwell.

 

Competition in this industry has been very good for the consumer.

 

Regarding the price of the Compound against the O1 - material costs of the models should be taken into account too, perhaps. The Compound features many additional metal parts, such as the running plate and all of the wheels. Hornby's O1 is an all plastic body with plastic wheels (with metal rims). Completely different manufacturing ethos at work at Margate compared to Barwell.

[trisonic]

Agree with you, Simon.

Also, I'm not one of those who view Bachmann uncritically - some models are better than others using the criteria of accuracy to prototype. The UK does seem to have been badly served by getting the basic Diesel prototype shape awry compared to steam engines, I think. Mind you Bachmann have still not really cracked the USA market precisely because of this.

Sorry what I meant was it is all very well getting the details looking great but what is the point if the Body shape or Cab shape is off to a degree?

 

Best, Pete.

[Ozexpatriate]

I have a suspicion that we may yet hear a completely different message coming out of Barwell.

Let's not forget that all this brouhaha over 'design clever' originates with Hornby's need to tell their shareholders that "there is a plan to improve turnover and profits" and that "all is well".

 

As much as anything else, 'design clever' is Hornby's message and strategy around improving profitability.

 

At the end of the day, Bachmann Branch-Line products come from a factory that, like Hornby's primary supplier, is owned by Kader Holdings. While it is possible that the Sanda Kan facility is still being brought in line with other Kader factories (hence some of the supply chain issues like installing ERP systems) external factors like wages and raw material costs are exactly the same for both companies.

[brian777999]

 I guess that 99.9% of Hornby's sales do not come from the likes of us - the people who use this Web site. We are the exception to the rule. Hornby has to satisfy its main target market and that is not the people who build railways that appear in the main railway model magazines.

1.  I have often wondered what percentage of sales come from scale modellers and what percentage from ''toy buyers'' ? I guess that is closely guarded information  but I really would love to see the figures. Does anybody know ?

 

2. Has Hornby ever ventured into the American HO market ?

[GWRLMSLNER]

1.  I have often wondered what percentage of sales come from scale modellers and what percentage from ''toy buyers'' ? I guess that is closely guarded information  but I really would love to see the figures. Does anybody know ?

 

2. Has Hornby ever ventured into the American HO market ?

 

If we take it (and I am not sure we can do so completely) that Hornby still sells because of the name to 'new' and occasional railway buyers it follows that with many 'modellers' buying both Bachmann and Hornby on a fairly equal basis that there is still a market out there for Hornby that is little touched by Bachmann et al. Guess there is no way of knowing exactly what percentage of buyers go on to be lifetime modellers. It is these that are likely to follow these threads.

[micklner]

1.  I have often wondered what percentage of sales come from scale modellers and what percentage from ''toy buyers'' ? I guess that is closely guarded information  but I really would love to see the figures. Does anybody know ?

 

2. Has Hornby ever ventured into the American HO market ?

Re 1

 

How would they ever know who buys the models?

No one signs a form declaring their modelling preferences. I cant imagine either company doing many buyer surveys either. It is simply what sells, if it does then they make more.

Thomas the tank and similar are obvious toy level range.