Hornby's 2013 Announcements

[davidw]

Good call, Robin - glad somebody's picked up on this one!  A nice model, basically accurate and responds well to some mild detailing - wears its years better than some of its contemporaries.  Very pleased to see its return.

 

It'd be nice to think they might make some mechanical improvements in these latest versions - I must have had about half a dozen of these over the years and not had one that worked well out of the box.  The original Mainline ones that I had were dire and I replaced the mechanisms with scratch built or Comet chassis kit versions.  The more recent Hornby ones are better.  They have a superior motor, but still benefit from some suspension on the middle driving axle to improve pick up (and also traction; as noted, added weight also helps) - easily if crudely acheived thanks to the plastic chassis construction; I just enlarged the middle axle 'bearings' into slots and arranged leaf springs from lengths of phospher bronze wire tucked into holes drilled through the frames and bearing on the top of the axle.

 

Appearance wise, it depends how much you want to do, but easy enough to add a decent brass smokebox door dart, lamp irons and properly-shaped vacuum pipes.  The sprung buffers on the Hornby ones look better (regardless of springing), and it's easy to replace the 'flat looking' balance pipes behind the cab steps with cylindrical ones from rod; destination boards, injector pipework, coal and crew are all easy enough too if you're so minded.  That's before you get into 'variants' such as non-condensing, NBL-built with different condensing pipe arrangements, different chimneys, Scottish destination boards, etc.  As far as I know, all the Hornby ones have a revised smokebox door moulding compared to the Mainline version, with the handrail below the top hinge strap which seems to have been less common by BR days, but will suit the GN liveried version.  I'm sure the GN livery will look splendid on it, too!

 

 

Sadly they won't be doing any GN coaches to go with, but it might not be too much of a stretch to run them with the Hornby LNER liveried Gresley non gangwayed stock.  In BR livery, the aforesaid Hornby Gresley and also Thompson non gangwayed stock in BR livery suits, as does the Bachmann BR 57' non gangwayed stock.  They were also extensively used on ECS movements so Hornby Gresley and Bachmann Thompson and BR Mk1 stock is all suitable, not to mention any kind of parcels stock that takes your fancy. Also not unknown on branch-type goods trains too, e.g. on the 'Northern Heights' and Hatfield-Dunstable lines - a really useful engine!

 

Thanks for such a well written response. I'll be getting an N2 now

[Ravenser]

The boiler mountings are not well defined, the splashers too big, for a start. There was more than one arrangement of condensing pipes.

 

Up until this thread started, I would have said "Re-design it from scratch" so we'd have a chance of seeing it done justice. Now I'm not at all confident that 'design clever' would improve on the original!

 

Cheers,

The Nim

 

 

I think someone used to advertise an upgrade kit on the back cover of MRJ - all singing/ all dancing etched brass , P4 , the works. It may be worth mentioning that before Christmas the 1948 Olympics train pack , which featured a N2 in plain BR black and a pair of debranded Gresley corridor teaks , was available from some shops discounted to quite a reasonable price (about £100 I think). I'm sure I've also seen a kit to convert to an Ivatt N1

 

The logical partner for an N2 is a kitbuilt Ian Kirk Quad Artic set, but most Kirk kits seem to be out of stock pending a new production run from Coopercraft .

 

The preserved N2 was part of the batch built for the GN in 1920-1, so did carry GN livery as 1744 - I'm not sure of detail differences bewtween the loco as first built and as currently preserved (and the Hornby model - the tooling dates from Airfix) . For the ambitious , the RCTS "green volume" part 9A shows a photo of 4734 leaving KX in 1924 with a New Barnet train of at least ten close coupled fourwheelers - so an approximation might be attempted with Ratio 4 wheelers, though you'd need to rework the roofs with something more flatroofed

[Guest stuartp]

I think someone used to advertise an upgrade kit on the back cover of MRJ - all singing/ all dancing etched brass , P4 , the works.

 

Dave Bradwell I believe.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The N2 could be much improved with a more conventional chassis design; bags of room in the near cuboid boiler and tanks section for a more conventionally positioned motor, to avoid the present intrusion into the cab. Would guess that any replacement chassis kit allows this to be sorted. Happily the Airfix toolroom got the basic shape and character right, making the body a good canvas to work up as a model of a specific class member. Lots of detail variation within the class to enable variety The age of the tooling makes it look a little 'soft' beside the erstwhile upgrade - the L1 'cement mixer' - rather appropriately for what often looked quite tired and battered in service.

 

Very easy loco to add weight to as a result of its' layout however. The centre section is filled with a cast ballast block, Replace that in lead, and put a lump into the smokebox end of the boiler, and it will pull for England much as the real things did. While doing that, soldered in wire connections to the pick ups can also be sorted out, and the suggested centre axle springing already mentioned. (Unless memory is failing, as supplied by Mainline a spring was fitted.)

 

This model remains the sole RTR model of an LNER/BR(ER) type suitable for working a branchline, as they were regular performers on all the KX inner suburban area branches to withdrawal. Kept getting taken off passenger duties on the Hatfield branches, the lighter N7 was preferred as having less tendency to roll on the curves. And would creep back on, while no one senior enough to matter was looking. I live five minutes from the fairly small radius reverse curves rising 1 in 50 that the Luton branch commences with as it diverges from the ECML. All in woodland too, so grip was often in short supply and there would be much puther with any size of freight. Fortunately the heaviest load in the form of the Vauxhall plant's exports came up the branch on the way to Tilbury docks.

 

I still think them very remarkable locos. Kept on the original job they were designed for until displaced by diesel traction. Every diesel class allocated as a replacement broken by the job. The NBL class 21 and EE class 23 so much so that they were not continued with, the original Brush 2 sort of managed but needing to be re-engined within relatively few years service, the class 105 DMU persistently underpowered and needing continual nursing for any reliability, (they really should have been made power twins). The rub with all the diesel replacements is that the best they could manage per trainload was about 60% of the passengers an N2 on a pair of Quads could lift.

[Dave Holt]

Whilst I understand the cost/price argument for the moulded-on details, in my view however clever the moulding technology, details such as the piping on DoG will not look as good as separately applied details and appears to be a step backwards. Personally, I'd sooner pay a bit more and keep the separate items. No doubt the die is cast (or spark eroded!) and moulded on detail it will be. Oh well.....

[brushman47544]

Whilst I understand the cost/price argument for the moulded-on details, in my view however clever the moulding technology, details such as the piping on DoG will not look as good as separately applied details and appears to be a step backwards. Personally, I'd sooner pay a bit more and keep the separate items. No doubt the die is cast (or spark eroded!) and moulded on detail it will be. Oh well.....

I too would prefer to retain the separate details and would be prepared to pay the extra, Hornby clearly thinks that many look at price first and are happy to compromise. Some of the moulded detail looks quite acceptable, just not all. But I think there's another factor we need to remember, namely that it's not just increasing costs in China but also availability of skilled staff in the factories. If design clever done well helps reduce the amount of skilled workers and their time needed, Hornby presumably expects to get products onto the shelves more quickly and reliably, which in the current circumstances must be important.

[Robin Brasher]

The N2 could be much improved with a more conventional chassis design; bags of room in the near cuboid boiler and tanks section for a more conventionally positioned motor, to avoid the present intrusion into the cab. Would guess that any replacement chassis kit allows this to be sorted. Happily the Airfix toolroom got the basic shape and character right, making the body a good canvas to work up as a model of a specific class member. Lots of detail variation within the class to enable variety The age of the tooling makes it look a little 'soft' beside the erstwhile upgrade - the L1 'cement mixer' - rather appropriately for what often looked quite tired and battered in service.

 

Very easy loco to add weight to as a result of its' layout however. The centre section is filled with a cast ballast block, Replace that in lead, and put a lump into the smokebox end of the boiler, and it will pull for England much as the real things did. While doing that, soldered in wire connections to the pick ups can also be sorted out, and the suggested centre axle springing already mentioned. (Unless memory is failing, as supplied by Mainline a spring was fitted.)

 

This model remains the sole RTR model of an LNER/BR(ER) type suitable for working a branchline, as they were regular performers on all the KX inner suburban area branches to withdrawal. Kept getting taken off passenger duties on the Hatfield branches, the lighter N7 was preferred as having less tendency to roll on the curves. And would creep back on, while no one senior enough to matter was looking. I live five minutes from the fairly small radius reverse curves rising 1 in 50 that the Luton branch commences with as it diverges from the ECML. All in woodland too, so grip was often in short supply and there would be much puther with any size of freight. Fortunately the heaviest load in the form of the Vauxhall plant's exports came up the branch on the way to Tilbury docks.

 

I still think them very remarkable locos. Kept on the original job they were designed for until displaced by diesel traction. Every diesel class allocated as a replacement broken by the job. The NBL class 21 and EE class 23 so much so that they were not continued with, the original Brush 2 sort of managed but needing to be re-engined within relatively few years service, the class 105 DMU persistently underpowered and needing continual nursing for any reliability, (they really should have been made power twins). The rub with all the diesel replacements is that the best they could manage per trainload was about 60% of the passengers an N2 on a pair of Quads could lift.

Hornby Dublo produced the N2 from 1938-1964, Trackmaster produced it from 1949-1951, Rovex from 1951-1954, Wrenn from 1969-1984, Mainline from 1982-1984, Dapol from 1985-2001, Hornby from 2001-2 and then from 2012-13. It is a pity no-one has produced a perfect 00 gauge N2 yet and no-one has produced a ready to run N7 as a companion.

[Ian J.]

Something I have wondered is whether it's worth doing a poll of people here to see what their opinions are of the moulded on detail vs separate detail vs price. Or are we all a bit weary of polls on the forum?

[DaveF]

When I was working full time and enjoying a decent salary I'd have gone for the maximum amount of separately applied detail and would not have worried about the price.

 

Now I am retired with a small amount of part time work and a reasonable pension I have a much more restricted budget, so would go for the cheaper option - or my "hobby money" might not stretch to any new models

 

David

[Legend]

I don't think it's just as straight forward as that Ian. I admit I'm one of the people who has been questioning Hornbys pricing strategy in the past, so they do seem at least to be responding to this. So yes I would be prepared to accept some moulded detail to keep price down. It is what is the acceptable compromise that is the question. To me looking at the DoG on the cover of the 2013 catalogue moulded handrails on the deflectors are an unacceptable compromise, however I'm probably happy with the other moulded detail and the 2bil looks superb

[Robin Brasher]

Something I have wondered is whether it's worth doing a poll of people here to see what their opinions are of the moulded on detail vs separate detail vs price. Or are we all a bit weary of polls on the forum?

I think it is a good idea. Ben Jones writing on page 3 of Model Rail No 179 March 2013 said, "As expected, there were some widely differing opinions but the trend was firmly in support of the Margate company's drive to reduce prices." As an example I think the "special edition" Hornby Railroad apple green Tornado is an acceptable model whereas the standard model is not. I would not be prepared to pay an additional £30 for the Bachmann version and this is demonstrated by poor sales of this which is now being offered at a discount. I am not sure whether the views of some of the serious modellers on this web site match the views of model train purchasers as a whole. 

[YesTor]

Something I have wondered is whether it's worth doing a poll of people here to see what their opinions are of the moulded on detail vs separate detail vs price. Or are we all a bit weary of polls on the forum?

 

Good idea.  Personally and from a modelling viewpoint, I fail to see how a return to moulded on detail can be seen as anything other than a step back into the dark ages. 

 

As far as diesels go Hornby produce a couple of the finest RTR models to date in the Class 08 and Class 60, mainly due to the very fact that there is a great amount of finesse achieved largely down to those fine details.  I would rather pay £120 for one finely detailed Class 60 than be able to pick-up a pair for the same price but with a heap of moulded handrails, footsteps, grilles etc etc... 

 

I enjoy collecting fine looking and detailed models Mr Hornby, not toys...

[Ian J.]

The kind of question I had in mind was:

 

If you are a purchaser of OO RTR models (regardless of manufacturer), which of the following is most important to you:

 

1. Robustness (and prepared to accept moulded on detail to attain this)

2. Low price (and prepared to accept moulded on detail to attain this)

3. Fine detail (and prepared to pay a reasonable premium for this to be ready factory fitted)

 

Obviously there are degrees, but this is about the simplest concept I could boil it down to. Any other ideas or would this be good enough to go with?

 

Andy Y & Mods, if you're monitoring this thread, can you give feedback on whether a new thread (under MM&M?) with a poll would be OK?

[Dunsignalling]

I think it is a good idea. Ben Jones writing on page 3 of Model Rail No 179 March 2013 said, "As expected, there were some widely differing opinions but the trend was firmly in support of the Margate company's drive to reduce prices." As an example I think the "special edition" Hornby Railroad apple green Tornado is an acceptable model whereas the standard model is not. I would not be prepared to pay an additional £30 for the Bachmann version and this is demonstrated by poor sales of this which is now being offered at a discount. I am not sure whether the views of some of the serious modellers on this web site match the views of model train purchasers as a whole. 

If I wanted a model of Tornado, I would prefer the Hornby one which is modelled specifically on the new loco rather than the original class.

 

If I wanted a model of a BR Peppercorn A1, I would go for Bachmann's. Price (within reason) would not enter into it.

 

However, my interests are BR (S) Western Section and the Somerset & Dorset line circa 1960, so my position is purely hypothetical !

 

JDS

[Robin Brasher]

The inferior Bachmann A4s and 08s seem to sell better than the Hornby A4s and 08s with some of the latter being offered at huge discounts. Perhaps the level of detail that Bachmann has offered with the A4s an 08s and Hornby has offered with the special edition of Tornado will satisfy the majority of purchasers. I note that Hornby is offering the 2013 A4s as a limited edition. Perhaps their successors will be upgraded Railroad versions which will compete with Bachmann on price. On pages 114 to 115 of Britains Model Trains 2013 the Hornby Railroad A4 has been given a rating of 80% compared with 76% for the Bachmann A4.

[Andy Y]

 

Andy Y & Mods, if you're monitoring this thread, can you give feedback on whether a new thread (under MM&M?) with a poll would be OK?

Probably best left until people have seen/bought some relevant items.

[davidw]

The inferior Bachmann A4s and 08s seem to sell better than the Hornby A4s and 08s with some of the latter being offered at huge discounts. Perhaps the level of detail that Bachmann has offered with the A4s an 08s and Hornby has offered with the special edition of Tornado will satisfy the majority of purchasers. I note that Hornby is offering the 2013 A4s as a limited edition. Perhaps their successors will be upgraded Railroad versions which will compete with Bachmann on price. On pages 114 to 115 of Britains Model Trains 2013 the Hornby Railroad A4 has been given a rating of 80% compared with 76% for the Bachmann A4.

 

Steady on Robin! Those are quite sweeping statements regarding the sales of Bachmann compared with Hornby items.

[Ian J.]

Probably best left until people have seen/bought some relevant items.

 

OK.

[Dunsignalling]

The inferior Bachmann A4s and 08s seem to sell better than the Hornby A4s and 08s with some of the latter being offered at huge discounts. Perhaps the level of detail that Bachmann has offered with the A4s an 08s and Hornby has offered with the special edition of Tornado will satisfy the majority of purchasers. I note that Hornby is offering the 2013 A4s as a limited edition. Perhaps their successors will be upgraded Railroad versions which will compete with Bachmann on price. On pages 114 to 115 of Britains Model Trains 2013 the Hornby Railroad A4 has been given a rating of 80% compared with 76% for the Bachmann A4.

Just because (for instance) one can obtain a substantial discount on a Hornby item, it doesn't mean the Bachmann model is outselling it.

 

It is more likely that Bachmann just did a better job of working out how many they could sell at or near their asking price.

 

The reason for discounting is to purely to shift excess stock and there must surely come a time when everybody has all the A4s they want!  

 

A lot of people buy further Bachmann A4s to match others acquired when Hornby were still in the tender-drive stone age. Mixing them just doesn't look right. On a personal level, all my BR Standards (apart from one Britannia) are Bachmann because the various types look well together. A Hornby 4MT (obtained at a silly discount) stuck out like a sore thumb and had to go.  

 

I find percentage ratings (wherever published) rarely tally with my own opinions; the reviewers either seem to be over-critical of something I hardly notice or generous about a fault that really gets my goat!  

[Fenman]

The inferior Bachmann A4s and 08s seem to sell better than the Hornby A4s and 08s

Could you give the actual numbers that show this, and the source of them? This looks like fascinating data (and, of course, I don't believe it for a second!)?

 

Paul

[jonathan452]

 and there must surely come a time when everybody has all the A4s they want!  

Exactly.

 

Except for those with large broom cupboards!

[great northern]

The inferior Bachmann A4s and 08s seem to sell better than the Hornby A4s and 08s with some of the latter being offered at huge discounts. Perhaps the level of detail that Bachmann has offered with the A4s an 08s and Hornby has offered with the special edition of Tornado will satisfy the majority of purchasers. I note that Hornby is offering the 2013 A4s as a limited edition. Perhaps their successors will be upgraded Railroad versions which will compete with Bachmann on price. On pages 114 to 115 of Britains Model Trains 2013 the Hornby Railroad A4 has been given a rating of 80% compared with 76% for the Bachmann A4.

It really would help if you gave some facts to back up your assertions. As you have seen already, because you have not done so, people are not disposed to accept what you say.

 

I have spoken to the manager of my local model shop, which is a long established one. He confirms that at present he is selling more Bachmann A4's and 08's that he is Hornby. He gave me two reasons. First, Bachmann have got their "Great Gathering" A4's out first. 60008/10 have apparently sold very quickly. Over the last two years Bachmann have provided more choice of names and liveries, and at a substantially lower price. The only Hornby A4 presently available is late crest Merlin. The same apparently applies to the 08's. Hornby presently only do Serco and NSE liveries, and most are sound fitted, whilst Bachmann have more common blue and green versions available. Again, the price differential is a significant factor he says.

 

The information about the A4's surprised me, as the Hornby model is far superior by general consensus. What this shows is that good marketing and sensible pricing can overcome that. Bachmann seem to have available what people want, and now, Hornby don't. Even when the Hornby great gathering A4's become available, there will be two problems. It seems that quite a lot of people will already have bought some if not all, and second the price differential will be significant, even from discount sources.

 

Further information. A significant number of prospective purchasers are complaining about too much fragile detail. And, not surprisingly, in the prevailing economic climate, cost is a major factor. Hornby's new policy is aimed at keeping prices at levels which the majority are willing and able to pay, and accepting that detail will have to suffer to a certain extent. We really don't know yet how much.

 

How about sales of items where there is head to head competition? B1's and Standard 4 sales are about equal apparently, again despite the fact that Hornby's seem to be accepted as superior models.

 

So, there are some "facts" supported by evidence. I doubt this particular establishment is in any way different from most others in its experiences. As I said, it surprised me, and showed me that my assumptions and preconceptions are at least not wholly correct. Does this cast a new light on this very long running thread?

 

One final aspect. Apparently to order from Hornby dealers have to go to Margate in January and say what they want. Hornby will then produce accordingly. It is very difficult if not impossible to order more if an item turns out to be more popular than anticipated. Bachmann produce a quantity of the item, based on their own estimates, and it is this particular shop's experience that a phone call will usually produce some more if required. OK, I know all about the SECR liveried C saga, but that is apparently very much an exceptional case. Is it therefore Hornby's own policies that have been costing them dear, as many have suggested in this thread? There does seem to be considerable evidence to support that view.

[micklner]

The Hornby A3 Book Law saga where it was cancelled due to lack of pre orders is a good example of Hornbys stupidity.

 

I wasnt aware they had such a  policy and was simply going to buy at least one probably more when offered for sale. The main reason would have been the Tender which is of the type that has only been produced in BR livery.

 

Hornbys loss back to the Airbrush instead !!

 

 

 

Bachmann A4 sorry total rubbish compared to the Hornby offering. Wrong shape and the old chassis version sounded like a box of spanners. No idea why anyone would want buy a new one ?  strange BR Green with luminous lining "yuk"

[Robin Brasher]

Steve Flint's editorial on page 89 of the February 2013 Railway Modeller seems to support Hornby's plan to apply fine details in a cost effective way to keep prices down. This seems to have worked well in the SR 2-BIL review on page 160. The Modeller describes the 2-BIL as having a good performance and crisply moulded bodywork. Production figures are a closely guarded secret but if Mallard is going to be a limited edition with only 500 models being produced this would suggest that the market for A4s has declined considerably since Hornby sold 14,000 Hornby R372 Seagull locomotives in the first two years of production. Please see p190 Story of Rovex Volume 3 by Pat Hammond. It looks as if Hornby's sales may have gone down to the levels experienced by Hornby-Dublo in 1964 when it sold 830 Golden Fleece locomotives in1964. I refer you to p95 of Hornby Dublo trains by Michael Foster. It seems from this information and Hornby's statement to its shareholders that something drastic needs to be done to increase sales in the UK and making production more efficient to reduce prices seems to be an effective way of doing this and is supported by the views of the readers of two leading railway magazines: Railway Modeller and Model Rail.

[frobisher]

The Hornby A3 Book Law saga where it was cancelled due to lack of pre orders is a good example of Hornbys stupidity.

How is cancelling a model because there were insufficent pre-orders to justify the production run in any way stupid? Sounds quite smart to me.