Hornby's 2013 Announcements

[The Stationmaster]

The Hornby A3 Book Law saga where it was cancelled due to lack of pre orders is a good example of Hornbys stupidity.

 

I wasnt aware they had such a  policy and was simply going to buy at least one probably more when offered for sale. The main reason would have been the Tender which is of the type that has only been produced in BR livery.

 

Hornbys loss back to the Airbrush instead !!

I was in exactly the same situation with 'Paviland Grange' - pre-order placed and production cancelled, not the end of the world as I bought a Bachmann 'Hall' instead.  I can, perhaps, understand why Hornby don't produce if they lack pre-orders but then equally they clearly over-produce some items as they subsequently clear surplus stock at 'sale' prices so it would seem they don't entirely work on that basis.   So I do wonder if such cancellations are also a symptom of their supply problems?

[great northern]

The Hornby A3 Book Law saga where it was cancelled due to lack of pre orders is a good example of Hornbys stupidity.

 

I wasnt aware they had such a  policy and was simply going to buy at least one probably more when offered for sale. The main reason would have been the Tender which is of the type that has only been produced in BR livery.

 

Hornbys loss back to the Airbrush instead !!

 

 

 

Bachmann A4 sorry total rubbish compared to the Hornby offering. Wrong shape and the old chassis version sounded like a box of spanners. No idea why anyone would want buy a new one ?  strange BR Green with luminous lining "yuk"

I agree that it is a very inferior model, even with the new chassis, which is not surprising as its origins go back to the Dark Ages. Why would anyone want to buy a new one? Well, apparently because Bachmann are producing what people want at prices they can afford, and Hornby aren't, or are lagging behind. We do need to remember that the majority of people who are buying are not as picky as some of us are. They have read about the arrival of 60008 and 60010, and the decide they want models. They go and look in the local shop, or on the net, and they find they can get one now, so they buy it. It's much cheaper than Hornby too.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Slightly 'back to basics' on this cost vs detail question. The essentials for me are overall a correctly scaled representation of the prototype, and reliable mechanism/running gear. Closely followed by high grade paint and lining/lettering and glazing ( these are difficult to achieve 'perfectly' every time for most of us in my opinion). No cost saving compromises there please.

 

Smaller detail: only where readily visible and can be produced robustly near enough to true scale to satisfy the eye. I would happily forego detailed and painted interiors, and gimmickry like opening doors, spinning fans and so on. Better to omit entirely detail that requires compromise over technique for cost purposes, or size and appearance from the ideal accurate representation. This detail can be added by the modeller most easily if there is nothing 'in the way' that has to be removed first.

 

For my money, Bachmann have typically hit the spot on steam locos in their chosen mix of applied detail. Latterly the paint has appeared in the cab on their models too: honestly guys I would prefer to save the cost of this hand work intensive applied detail. Hornby have gone too far in small detail: a good example are the moulded steam sanding gear pipes. Too fragile to stand operation, my locos stay on the track and are not handled, and these parts gradually fall off over two to three years. Bachmann's 'bent wire' alternative is robust: not as refined, but more practical for a working model.

[DerekEm8]

Steve Flint's editorial on page 89 of the February 2013 Railway Modeller seems to support Hornby's plan to apply fine details in a cost effective way to keep prices down. This seems to have worked well in the SR 2-BIL review on page 160. The Modeller describes the 2-BIL as having a good performance and crisply moulded bodywork. Production figures are a closely guarded secret but if Mallard is going to be a limited edition with only 500 models being produced this would suggest that the market for A4s has declined considerably since Hornby sold 14,000 Hornby R372 Seagull locomotives in the first two years of production. Please see p190 Story of Rovex Volume 3 by Pat Hammond. It looks as if Hornby's sales may have gone down to the levels experienced by Hornby-Dublo in 1964 when it sold 830 Golden Fleece locomotives in1964. I refer you to p95 of Hornby Dublo trains by Michael Foster. It seems from this information and Hornby's statement to its shareholders that something drastic needs to be done to increase sales in the UK and making production more efficient to reduce prices seems to be an effective way of doing this and is supported by the views of the readers of two leading railway magazines: Railway Modeller and Model Rail.

Robin,

All very interesting, but have you ever known the Modeller give a BAD review of anything ?

Also  (once again) a very contentious statement regarding the views of support from the readership of the magazines - evidence ?

[Dunsignalling]

The market for A4s has not so much declined as been satisfied. They have done 'Mallard' twice already as production models so the 'Limited Edition' is just for the collectors who must have one of everything. How many A4s does anybody want? Once demand has been satisfied, people find something else to spend their money on.

 

I have far more Bulleid Pacifics than I really know what to do with and any future purchases will be locos I would have otherwise obtained by renaming another one. 'Okehampton' is an example of this 'Wincanton' is not (with or without sound which I don't want anyway). I presume there are ER modellers in a similar position.

 

Hornby haven't lost out by me buying fewer locos because I have been buying coaches instead.

 

At least with A4s and Bulleids, there will always be people who want the ones you haven't already offered. Nobody will want more than one 'Duke of Gloucester' or 'Cock o' the North' so the market will be satisfied quite quickly with no scope for follow on sales. Both are worthwhile prototypes to offer but I think Hornby may be pushing their luck doing two 'one-offs' in the same year.

 

 

 

Production figures are a closely guarded secret but if Mallard is going to be a limited edition with only 500 models being produced this would suggest that the market for A4s has declined considerably since Hornby sold 14,000 Hornby R372 Seagull locomotives in the first two years of production.

['CHARD]

 Hornby may be pushing their luck doing two 'one-offs' in the same year. 

 

I reckon they should do one 'two-off' in 2014, with Bantam Cock (and hen).

[Guest stuartp]

The inferior Bachmann A4s and 08s seem to sell better than the Hornby A4s and 08s with some of the latter being offered at huge discounts.

 

Hornby 08s at Hattons - £61 or £67 depending on livery, RRP £89. Bachmann 08s at Hattons £63, RRP £75. (Other box shifters are available). Reduced to compete maybe but hardly reduced to clear, and the Bachmann one is also reduced. I'd also argue with your statement that the Bachmann one is 'inferior', I have one of each, the rods are a but chunky on the Bachmann one but that's about it, and it doesn't scream like a banshee like the Hornby one does.

 

Production figures are a closely guarded secret but if Mallard is going to be a limited edition with only 500 models being produced this would suggest that the market for A4s has declined considerably since Hornby sold 14,000 Hornby R372 Seagull locomotives in the first two years of production.

 

Both the market and production methods are very different from the days when you could have any A4 you liked as long as it was Mallard in green or Seagull in blue, year after year. Anyway, isn't the point of a limited edition supposed to be that it's ... er ... limited ?  

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

How many A4s does anybody want?

35, please, in various LNER liveries!

[micklner]

At least with A4s and Bulleids, there will always be people who want the ones you haven't already offered. Nobody will want more than one 'Duke of Gloucester' or 'Cock o' the North' so the market will be satisfied quite quickly with no scope for follow on sales. Both are worthwhile prototypes to offer but I think Hornby may be pushing their luck doing two 'one-offs' in the same year.


 

If Cock o the North has been designed clever whatever that actually means??? . They can get a further SIX Locos out of the moulding i.e the A4 fronted P2's all of which have detail variations !!.

 

Perhaps another Ltd edition for the future

[Dunsignalling]

If Cock o the North has been designed clever whatever that actually means??? . They can get a further SIX Locos out of the moulding i.e the A4 fronted P2's all of which have detail variations !!.

 

Perhaps another Ltd edition for the future

And I would expect them to do at least some of them. However, any prototype that disappeared before BR days loses at least a couple of livery options so sales are unlikely to match one that survived longer.

[Ozexpatriate]

The Hornby A3 Book Law saga where it was cancelled due to lack of pre orders is a good example of Hornbys stupidity. 

Do we really *know* this to be true (that "Book Law" was cancelled due to lack of pre-orders)?

 

Perhaps it was reprioritized due to the availability of manufacturing slots and we will yet see it eventually?

 

How many different A4s are Hornby making again this year alone? It's at least eight - I haven't double-checked.

I was in exactly the same situation with 'Paviland Grange' - pre-order placed and production cancelled, not the end of the world as I bought a Bachmann 'Hall' instead.

And indeed "Paviland Grange" is now re-announced for 2013. My suspicions are that Hornby is juggling manufacturing slots due to constraints on their supply chain more than any other factor.

[micklner]

Re Book Law

 

Was stated in magazines last year when cancellelations were listed . Nothing in current list , who  knows re future Perhaps Mr Kohler might answer as I am sure Hornby read this thread !!

[bluebottle]

If Cock o the North has been designed clever whatever that actually means??? . They can get a further SIX Locos out of the moulding i.e the A4 fronted P2's all of which have detail variations !!.

Perhaps another Ltd edition for the future

 

 

Are you suggesting that the body moulding for the original Cock o' the North could be used for the later streamliners? Apart from the different front ends, the boiler casing of the original had a parallel top from cab to smokebox, where in the streamliners it sloped down towards the front, as in the A4s.

 

 

And I would expect them to do at least some of them. However, any prototype that disappeared before BR days loses at least a couple of livery options so sales are unlikely to match one that survived longer.

 

 

On their stand at the Doncaster model railway show a couple of years ago, the Doncaster P2 Locomotive Trust had a beautiful print from a painting of a streamliner in BR blue. So, if and when it gets built, the Trust may repaint it in different liveries as was done with Tornado. Hornby at that time may offer these.

 

Gordon

[The Stationmaster]

And I would expect them to do at least some of them. However, any prototype that disappeared before BR days loses at least a couple of livery options so sales are unlikely to match one that survived longer.

The P2 will find an initial market among the folk who voted for it in the wishlists, it will also sell to the 'R number collectors' and it will no doubt find wider markets as well among LNER enthusiasts and possibly others.  But I think any longer term mass market success will depend very much on whether or not a full size one appears.

 

'Flying Scotsman' and 'Tornado' can sell by name alone as they are both known to a much wider range of people and you can possibly even get to see or ride behind the latter without travelling too far from home.  The P2 will be very impressive looking but it won't have that special cachet of either being a well known name long established in even the least railway minded psyche or of being some recent triumph of endeavour you can ride behind and touch.

[The Black Hat]

If Cock o the North has been designed clever whatever that actually means??? . They can get a further SIX Locos out of the moulding i.e the A4 fronted P2's all of which have detail variations !!.

 

Perhaps another Ltd edition for the future

Other possibility is to do the model in liveries as if the class continued in its modeled form. So produce a model in BR Brunswick Green, late crest. Or better still Loadhaul - that always sells....

[S.A.C Martin]

How many A4s does anybody want? 

 

Oooh, 34 would do me, in varying liveries (but all 34 different names still in service in 1948!)

 

Speaking seriously, a core of around ten A4 Pacifics in varying conditions and liveries would be fine. I'm halfway there at the minute and enjoying the modelling behind the fleet.

 

 

I have far more Bulleid Pacifics than I really know what to do with and any future purchases will be locos I would have otherwise obtained by renaming another one. 'Okehampton' is an example of this 'Wincanton' is not (with or without sound which I don't want anyway). I presume there are ER modellers in a similar position.

 

Yes indeed. Can't speak for all ER modellers but that is certainly the case with me. All of my A4s are renumberings and renamings in any event: the only way to get a fully accurate A4 for the period I am modelling requires removal of valances, additions of lots of parts and some other bits and bobs, not least weathering.

 

 

The thing is, if you want something truly special in terms of A4 Pacifics, you have to do it all yourself in terms of modelling - Hornby doesn't offer all of the possible permutations, and there's some great livery variants you can get out of the models they've produced.

 

Any garter blue model, with mods, will give post war and post nationalisation A4s like the above, the special edition purple liveried Merlin will allow you to model Kingfisher, Woodcock or Walter K. Whigham by removing the plaques and changing the number/number.

 

The single chimney express blue models have a decent number of combinations, particularly if you start carving the tender up to model one of the engines with the cut down raves for the exchange trials, and so on and so forth...

 

I personally have found it a lot of fun to come up with livery combinations to later model, the research and the modelling stage being equally fulfilling. You build up a collection of A4s quite quickly I find...!

 

At least with A4s and Bulleids, there will always be people who want the ones you haven't already offered. Nobody will want more than one 'Duke of Gloucester' or 'Cock o' the North' so the market will be satisfied quite quickly with no scope for follow on sales.

 

Not sure about that. I know of quite a few modellers who have ordered one of each of Railroad and the special edition. Idea being, the Railroad one can be improved on (or in my case, used to make a streamlined P2!) and the special edition one is bought for the potential of being a stunner in the fully livery.

 

I think Hornby picked two perfect models to sell. Both are very popular locomotives, and have proven to be greatly sought after and sought out by rail enthusiasts for generations. Will people buy more than one of no.2001 or no.71000? Yes if they're modellers, yes if they're collectors, youngsters will want their own and I suspect the fathers buying them will understand the attractions too and will consequently have their own, less battered one...

 

It does point towards a change in Hornby's tactics. Limited - very limited - editions with high demand always selling out, and less of the perennial, always in the catalogue models which instead get put back into the catalogue as and when demand grows.

[Dunsignalling]

Other possibility is to do the model in liveries as if the class continued in its modeled form. So produce a model in BR Brunswick Green, late crest. Or better still Loadhaul - that always sells....

And get the 'Thomas' people to include one in their next series............

[Guest Belgian]

The P2 will find an initial market among the folk who voted for it in the wishlists, it will also sell to the 'R number collectors' and it will no doubt find wider markets as well among LNER enthusiasts and possibly others.  But I think any longer term mass market success will depend very much on whether or not a full size one appears.

 

'Flying Scotsman' and 'Tornado' can sell by name alone as they are both known to a much wider range of people and you can possibly even get to see or ride behind the latter without travelling too far from home.  The P2 will be very impressive looking but it won't have that special cachet of either being a well known name long established in even the least railway minded psyche or of being some recent triumph of endeavour you can ride behind and touch.

Whilst I agree generally with the above, I do feel that no. 2001 had what is perhaps the finest name of any locomotive ever and that it will 'catch on' very quickly with the general public - far more quickly even than 'Tornado' did. The catchet of building/recreating a 'long-lost' railway icon - and arguably the most powerful-looking British express steam locomotive ever - will have at least as much impact for the media as did building another Pacific. I've no doubt it too will be portrayed as 'a recent triumph of endeavour you can ride behind and touch'.

 

JE

[Happy Hippo]

Hornby are going to follow up 'Cocko' with 'Wolfie'?

 

Same chassis and a stretched A4 body.

 

Design clever................or have I just ruined the 2014 announcement?

 

Regards

 

Richard

[micklner]

Are you suggesting that the body moulding for the original Cock o' the North could be used for the later streamliners? Apart from the different front ends, the boiler casing of the original had a parallel top from cab to smokebox, where in the streamliners it sloped down towards the front, as in the A4s.

 

 

 

 

If its designed clever it is a obvious thing to do is to design the alternative body moulding(s) at the same time   . The chassis and tender are already done . They could even do Earl Marischal in original layout too!!

 

At reasonably low cost they have Six (+ original 2002) more Locos to sell and I think would be good sellers as they are real "lookers" . They could stretch it to Twelve if they did wartime Black too. So from one original you have a total of 14 Locos now that is clever

[Happy Hippo]

Thank you Mick.......................Doh!

 

Regards

 

Richard

[Dunsignalling]

 

Are you suggesting that the body moulding for the original Cock o' the North could be used for the later streamliners? Apart from the different front ends, the boiler casing of the original had a parallel top from cab to smokebox, where in the streamliners it sloped down towards the front, as in the A4s.

 

 

 

 

If its designed clever it is a obvious thing to do is to design the alternative body moulding(s) at the same time   . The chassis and tender are already done . They could even do Earl Marischal in original layout too!!

 

At reasonably low cost they have Six (+ original 2002) more Locos to sell and I think would be good sellers as they are real "lookers" . They could stretch it to Twelve if they did wartime Black too. So from one original you have a total of 14 Locos now that is clever

If most people wanted to run them all, "Rule One" would have to be stretched quite a bit, too!

[The Stationmaster]

Whilst I agree generally with the above, I do feel that no. 2001 had what is perhaps the finest name of any locomotive ever and that it will 'catch on' very quickly with the general public - far more quickly even than 'Tornado' did. The catchet of building/recreating a 'long-lost' railway icon - and arguably the most powerful-looking British express steam locomotive ever - will have at least as much impact for the media as did building another Pacific. I've no doubt it too will be portrayed as 'a recent triumph of endeavour you can ride behind and touch'.

 

JE

That's a very pertinent point - the impact of the original in its own time seems to have been quite considerable.  I think my dad only saw it once or twice but he never ceased to talk about it (or 10000 come to that) and any full size recreation is bound to be a major public senstaion.

 

Incidentally, and on a very different theme, I see from the Hornby catalogue (obtained yesterday) that the GWR 8 coupled tanks are listed in the new edition - with the exception of the incorrect BR black 2-8-2T  (sold out or errors realised I wonder?).

[bluebottle]

Obviously too clever for me ...

[Coach bogie]

Other possibility is to do the model in liveries as if the class continued in its modeled form. So produce a model in BR Brunswick Green, late crest. Or better still Loadhaul - that always sells....

It does not appear to be an issue on the Retford layout so why not. I would buy one just for the fun of running it!

 

Mike Wiltshire