Hornby's 2013 Announcements

[Guest Belgian]

 

Sorry what I meant was it is all very well getting the details looking great but what is the point if the Body shape or Cab shape is off to a degree?

 

 

Hear! Hear!

 

JE

[Robin Brasher]

Re 1

 

How would they ever know who buys the models?

No one signs a form declaring their modelling preferences. I cant imagine either company doing many buyer surveys either. It is simply what sells, if it does then they make more.

Thomas the tank and similar are obvious toy level range.

You can get a good idea of how many people buy each model by reading Pat Hammond's books about the story of Rovex. This gives the production figures for each locomotive and coach. If he continues to write these books we will eventually find out the production figures of the models in the 2013 range.

[Robin Brasher]

There have been a lot of posts about the prices of Hornby's products but these seem like bargains compared with the prices of Golden Age models. The price of a Golden Age A4 is £975 + VAT yet the company has no difficulty is selling these models. These models are covered in rmweb Golden Age Models 00 gauge A4.

[45568]

You can get a good idea of how many people buy each model by reading Pat Hammond's books about the story of Rovex. This gives the production figures for each locomotive and coach. If he continues to write these books we will eventually find out the production figures of the models in the 2013 range.

Yeeesssss.......! But if Pat lives to be 135 years old, and writes the books, will the figures really be relevant to us in 2077???  Then again, perhaps, given how long this thread has gone on already, they probably will!

Cheers,

Peter C.

[Jol Wilkinson]

modellers (as opposed to collectors)

 

I think that the difference between the two is increasingly blurred. Just looking at the "I must have one of those" postings rather indicates that a lot of modellers will buy products the manufacturers bring out simply because they find them attractive, rather than they fit their modelling prefences. Perhaps the description "modeller/collector" is increasingly more appropriate.

 

I have often wondered what percentage of sales come from scale modellers and what percentage from ''toy buyers'' ? I guess that is closely guarded information but I really would love to see the figures. Does anybody know ?

 

I think you have answered you own question. What separates the two categories? How many "casual modellers" would consider themselves as toy buyers?

 

I don't think it is closely guarded information, it probably doesn't even exists. There is no industry body to gather such information and the best that the manufacturers can do is to identify which retail outlets buy their products and in what quantities. With shopping centre outlets such as Modelzone in Ipswich, what do they sell to the toy buyer, collector or modeller? I doubt that they have the faintest idea.

[frobisher]

 

There have been a lot of posts about the prices of Hornby's products but these seem like bargains compared with the prices of Golden Age models. The price of a Golden Age A4 is £975 + VAT yet the company has no difficulty is selling these models. These models are covered in rmweb Golden Age Models 00 gauge A4.

The company isn't making/selling 500+ of these at a time though, and they are not selling those to everyone who wants an A4. Golden Age sell what is a premium product to a niche market.

[Ian J.]

Higher value RTR models are something that some of the modelling / collecting population want and have the money to spend on. It just appears to be the case that Hornby don't want to supply to that market and would prefer to pander to shareholders on the basis of 'lower costs + same prices = £££'.

 

Personally, as I've said ad nauseam now, I think Hornby are missing a trick by not exploiting the higher value market segment in a 'new' brand specifically for it. Bachmann are kind of doing it with their NRM commissions, though even those still have chassis designed for second radius curves, which inevitably leads to compromises in some elements of the body design.

[The Stationmaster]

I think that the difference between the two is increasingly blurred. Just looking at the "I must have one of those" postings rather indicates that a lot of modellers will buy products the manufacturers bring out simply because they find them attractive, rather than they fit their modelling prefences. Perhaps the description "modeller/collector" is increasingly more appropriate.

I doubt in some respects if Hornby does know the difference - as I have said before they seem to have long had difficulty in identifying 'collectors' and they seem to equate them with the 'Franklin Mint' market area by selling such things as sets or locos linked to stamps or plates or whatever.  And there they have made a mistake as this is the main 'collecting market' area which has probably been hit hardest of all by the recessionary effects of recent years.  At least this year they seem to have got the idea onboard about the real collectors, the 'R number grabbers' who, literally build a collection of everything by R number or any variants - the 'Great Gathering A4s go straight at that market in, probably, about the right number, and will also have some appeal to modellers as is apparent on here.

 

But yes I do agree that some modellers also collect - by buying, as you say, what amounts to out-of-place locos (mainly) because they like them (and I'm one who occasionally does exactly that) although it is hardly the main collecting market but it is definitely a good way of widening it.  It is perhaps an area which Hornby might now lose out on if 'design clever' doesn't deliver the goods that have sufficient appeal for the customer who is attracted to something because it is a 'good' model of an interesting prototype.  In other words am I, for example, as likely to buy a P2 as I was a very nice Gresley pacific (sorry, a couple of Gresley pacifics)?

 

All well and good if Hornby can survive on their target mass market and still keep the more discerning modeller onboard; they will never lose the R number collector market (which is probably well under 1,000) but I think they need to stop confusing the latter with the 'discerning modeller' market or they might suffer.

 

Edit to correct typos

[great northern]

Higher value RTR models are something that some of the modelling / collecting population want and have the money to spend on. It just appears to be the case that Hornby don't want to supply to that market and would prefer to pander to shareholders on the basis of 'lower costs + same prices = £££'.

 

Personally, as I've said ad nauseam now, I think Hornby are missing a trick by not exploiting the higher value market segment in a 'new' brand specifically for it. Bachmann are kind of doing it with their NRM commissions, though even those still have chassis designed for second radius curves, which inevitably leads to compromises in some elements of the body design.

Surely the vital question then is " How many of the modelling/collecting population does some include?"  For many years Hornby were safe in the knowledge that just that name on the box guaranteed them the lion's share of sales. I well remember the manager of my local model shop telling me that when he tried to tell customers about Bachmann most just didn't want to know, even though for some time Bachmann products were to a higher standard. Eventually though, it obviously did start to hurt Hornby, and precipitated the arrival of the Merchant Navy, and a complete change in their whole marketing approach. The fact that the Merchant Navy, and Hornby's next few offerings, did so well, demonstrates that to a degree the market has changed, and that the serious modeller/collector has become a greater proportion of potential buyers.

 

Still though, there seems to be a considerable number of buyers who don't care about all this detail and prototype fidelity. They just aren't as bothered as some, or probably most of us, are. That seems to apply whether the box is blue or red, and again relying on the experience of my local model shop, the Hornby brand is still a significant factor.

 

That said, where should Hornby be aiming? It has been pointed out a zillion times that they exist to make a profit, not to cater for the wishes of a small proportion of potential customers. No doubt someone has looked ahead a couple of years and assessed the likely escalation of the cost of producing models in China. I suspect that when they did so they didn't like what they saw. Hornby, and Bachmann for that matter, are stuck with China for some time, they can't just up sticks and go elsewhere tomorrow or any time soon.

 

There are many people on here who are telling Hornby that they can't, or won't, pay ever higher prices. So, if Hornby have projected costs forward to say 2015, and worked out what models to the standard of  say the B17 and the 01 would cost then, and come up with a figure that they suspect goes beyond the resources or willingness of most potential customers, what can they do? Back to my original question then. How many is "some". Enough to enable Hornby to keep the markets and their shareholders happy? I doubt it. Is it feasible for them to bring out a new brand specifically for the higher end of the market? I wish it was, but I can't see how it could be given the present dire worldwide financial situation, and the likelihood that it will continue for some time yet. There are a lot of people around who are having to accept reductions and compromises in order to survive. That is bound to impact on Hornby, and therefore on the few of us who are fortunate enough to be able to pay for the level of model we have come to expect.

[brian777999]

Re 1

 

How would they ever know who buys the models?

No one signs a form declaring their modelling preferences. I cant imagine either company doing many buyer surveys either. It is simply what sells, if it does then they make more.

Thomas the tank and similar are obvious toy level range.

 

Many companies survey their customers regularly to get an idea of preferences and trends. There are firms you can hire to do just this if you do not have the necessary people inhouse.

[coachmann]

Toy trains....Surely this only exists in the minds of children of long ago? If not playing with Thomas & Friends, haven't they been playing with scale models for the past decade or so? 

[Removed a/c]

Toy trains....Surely this only exists in the minds of children of long ago? If not playing with Thomas & Friends, haven't they been playing with scale models for the past decade or so? 

Not necessarily the Hornby 47 is not really different today than it was 30 years ago when I was playing toy trains........what's wrong with toy trains anyway?

[Ian J.]

...Back to my original question then. How many is "some". Enough to enable Hornby to keep the markets and their shareholders happy? I doubt it. Is it feasible for them to bring out a new brand specifically for the higher end of the market? I wish it was, but I can't see how it could be given the present dire worldwide financial situation, and the likelihood that it will continue for some time yet. There are a lot of people around who are having to accept reductions and compromises in order to survive. That is bound to impact on Hornby, and therefore on the few of us who are fortunate enough to be able to pay for the level of model we have come to expect.

 

'Some' - I'm inferring here that you feel it's too small a market to be viable, but I don't believe that, I think it is big enough. But the higher price would be higher than currently, though the expectation of the purchaser would be for an even better model. Unfortunately it is probably one of those markets that people don't realize they want until it's put in front of them.

 

As for the buyers who are having to accept reduction and compromises in life, I know that only too well as I'm one of them. I am in a position where I can't afford to buy anything relating to model railways at present ( ) and I'm still of a mind to give up completely (though that is a position currently on hold though one recent event might have me selling a few more items just to stay afloat). But I have the unenviable position of being able to say I'd rather not be able to buy a really nice high quality model than not be able to buy a low-fi cheap one

 

Edit: grammar

[DerekEm8]

I do think that there is a slightly different twist to the predictions on here. Train sets and 'railroad'/Thomas single models are bought in seasonally (fairly) predictable quantities(Christmas -large, birthdays -small) and that is usually better known by the individual retailer, but modellers often (as seen on here) will buy more than one of a particular model at all times of the year - probably proved by Bachmann selling single items in quantity rather than concentrating on complete (overpriced) train sets.

I am still convinced  that Hornby tried the cheaper option with the 4VEP. (and the B17+ other delayed models) with a new sub-contractor and that didn't work but probably cost them a bad press and sales

[Robin Brasher]

'Some' - I'm inferring here that you feel it's too small a market to be viable, but I don't believe that, I think it is big enough. But the higher price would be higher than currently, though the expectation of the purchaser would be for an even better model. Unfortunately it is probably one of those markets that people don't realize they want until it's put in front of them.

 

As for the buyers who are having to accept reduction and compromises in life, I know that only too well as I'm one of them. I am in a position where I can't afford to buy anything relating to model railways at present ( ) and I'm still of a mind to give up completely (though that is a position currently on hold though one recent event might have me selling a few more items just to stay afloat). But I have the unenviable position of being able to say I'd rather not be able to buy a really nice high quality model than not be able to buy a low-fi cheap one

 

Edit: grammar

I am sorry to read about your financial position. The Hornby Railroad R2882 SDJR Jinty is due to come out for £24 + £4 postage from Hattons on Tuesday 28th May. If you set aside 20p per day until then you should be able to buy one. I bought a Bachmann one for £50 and there is not a lot of difference between that and the Hornby one from a normal viewing distance.

[Budgie]

The Hornby Railroad R2882 SDJR Jinty is due to come out for £24 + £4 postage from Hattons on Tuesday 28th May. If you set aside 20p per day until then you should be able to buy one. I bought a Bachmann one for £50 and there is not a lot of difference between that and the Hornby one from a normal viewing distance.

Not just that, but it provides a cheap 0-6-0 chassis for putting kit-built bodies on.

[micklner]

You can get a good idea of how many people buy each model by reading Pat Hammond's books about the story of Rovex. This gives the production figures for each locomotive and coach. If he continues to write these books we will eventually find out the production figures of the models in the 2013 range.

Yes but I was talking about what kind of modeller buys the product ,not how many !!

[micklner]

Many companies survey their customers regularly to get an idea of preferences and trends. There are firms you can hire to do just this if you do not have the necessary people inhouse.

Has anyone seen a survey of Railway modelling preferences by Hornby or anyone similar company ? I havent, and like  any survey can be manipulated to give any desired result.

Far simpler in fact Hornby look at the wish lists, costings and past sales for particular periods and manafacture items they think will sell to whoever wants them. If by luck they make something you like then you are very happy !!

They are there to make money for their shareholders, and in this case by they also happen to make model trains . If it was dustbin bags or anything else there would not be much difference.

Judging by their lack of customer support at times, as much interest is shown by them as any other company selling any other product .

[Ian J.]

I am sorry to read about your financial position. The Hornby Railroad R2882 SDJR Jinty is due to come out for £24 + £4 postage from Hattons on Tuesday 28th May. If you set aside 20p per day until then you should be able to buy one. I bought a Bachmann one for £50 and there is not a lot of difference between that and the Hornby one from a normal viewing distance.

 

 But I have the unenviable position of being able to say I'd rather not be able to buy a really nice high quality model than not be able to buy a low-fi cheap one

 

I should re-inforce my statement in that I would rather not buy any model, if the only option is a low-fi cheapy because I can't afford a better one. I have a passion for quality which only just falls short of being a P4 modeller.

[bennyboy]

Personally, as I've said ad nauseam now, I think Hornby are missing a trick by not exploiting the higher value market segment in a 'new' brand specifically for it. Bachmann are kind of doing it with their NRM commissions, though even those still have chassis designed for second radius curves, which inevitably leads to compromises in some elements of the body design.

 

But presumably it is the commissioning company (the NRM in this case) that are setting the standards and Bachmann are simply complying with their wishes. Hornby could probably make models to the same standards if they were asked to do so, but they don't seem to be interested in commissions that involve new models. 

[Dunsignalling]

I think it'll be interesting come February to compare the Bachmann announcements with Hornby. I've been very much encouraged by most of that coming out of Hornby (with a few concerns, aired previously here), but I have a suspicion that we may yet hear a completely different message coming out of Barwell.

 

Competition in this industry has been very good for the consumer.

 

Regarding the price of the Compound against the O1 - material costs of the models should be taken into account too, perhaps. The Compound features many additional metal parts, such as the running plate and all of the wheels. Hornby's O1 is an all plastic body with plastic wheels (with metal rims). Completely different manufacturing ethos at work at Margate compared to Barwell.

And, of course, as a freight loco, the O1 comes in any colour you like so long as it is unlined black whereas the Compound has full lining on a locomotive with a quite complex shape.

[Dunsignalling]

Has anyone seen a survey of Railway modelling preferences by Hornby or anyone similar company ? I havent, and like  any survey can be manipulated to give any desired result.

Far simpler in fact Hornby look at the wish lists, costings and past sales for particular periods and manafacture items they think will sell to whoever wants them. If by luck they make something you like then you are very happy !!

They are there to make money for their shareholders, and in this case by they also happen to make model trains . If it was dustbin bags or anything else there would not be much difference.

Judging by their lack of customer support at times, as much interest is shown by them as any other company selling any other product .

Hornby do collect this sort of background information (and customer wishes) via a questionnaire form on their stand at major exhibitions.

[micklner]

Hornby do collect this sort of background information (and customer wishes) via a questionnaire form on their stand at major exhibitions.

I must be unlucky because I have never seen any on offer at Ally Pally for the last five years. I will ask for one in March at the show, and it will be interesting to see what they are asking therein.

[Dunsignalling]

I don't think Hornby are so much worried about their super-detail models not selling at all as by the (more likely) prospect that each of us might spend the same on fewer of them as prices rise.  

 

As the highest-volume producer in the market, Hornby have the most to lose from greater customer selectivity. .

 

Many Hornby releases are repeats of earlier models with alternative identities and the cost of tooling them will have already been covered. All other things being equal, these models should generate a greater profit-per-unit. However, such sales are likely to be much more vulnerable to selectivity than those of completely new items.

 

We currently have escalating prices set against a background of customer resources that are not keeping up and most (presumably including Hornby) expect this to continue for some years, Come 2014, would I purchase yet another Bulleid Pacific from Hornby in preference to (say) an S.15 from another maker, or the average LNER fan prioritise a dozenth Hornby A4 over his first or second Heljan O2?

 

The other players in the market seem to operate (at least initially) on the basis of lower volumes per item, so Bachmann et al may not need to follow the Hornby path over detail. More to the point, I would not expect them to trumpet it if they did!

 

JDS

[Guest Belgian]

'Some' - I'm inferring here that you feel it's too small a market to be viable, but I don't believe that, I think it is big enough. But the higher price would be higher than currently, though the expectation of the purchaser would be for an even better model. Unfortunately it is probably one of those markets that people don't realize they want until it's put in front of them.

 

As for the buyers who are having to accept reduction and compromises in life, I know that only too well as I'm one of them. I am in a position where I can't afford to buy anything relating to model railways at present ( ) and I'm still of a mind to give up completely (though that is a position currently on hold though one recent event might have me selling a few more items just to stay afloat). But I have the unenviable position of being able to say I'd rather not be able to buy a really nice high quality model than not be able to buy a low-fi cheap one

 

Edit: grammar

 

You have my sympathy Ian, having been through the same scenario some 4 years ago and only now just getting my head back above water. It does get better!

 

JE