Hornby's 2013 Announcements

[wombatofludham]

I'm astonished at the number of people on here who not only are privvy to Bachmann's presumably commercially confidential sales figures for their third rail and OHLE models, but also what sales projections Bachmann's investment was based on, and of course know in absolute detail those crucial individual retailer-producer-supplier negotiations, discounts and deals on which retail pricing is set, in order to be able to assert with such venom that OHLE and third rail models don't sell because they have seen that they are a bit cheaper at some retailers and some big box shifters still have some in stock.  Given so many are blessed with such prescience it's odd that there are so few lottery winners on the forum.

 

We really don't know how well Bachmann's electrics have sold from Bachmann's point of view (chats with retail assistants are not terribly authoritative of the big picture), or whether they are underperforming on Bachmann's sales projections or whether the company is happy with sales.  No one does unless they sit in the boardroom at Barwell.  All other comment is speculation based on assumptions and in some cases a great dollop of snippy prejudice.

 

Also, don't you all think that the relative lack of AC electric layouts might just be down to lack of decent models and support from RTR and therefore a bit of a self fulfilling prophesy?  If you are an average modeller who has limited time and funds to persue their hobby, and therefore prefers to use RTR as a short cut to achieve their ends, would you choose a layout where you need to rebuild what RTR stock is available to get anything reasonably accurate, or kit build, then hand crochet your own OHLE, or would you choose to model something where you can get excellent results with just a quick renumber, bit of detailing and weathering?

[Ron Ron Ron]

Accurate pantographs would be welcome........ Working ones would be classed with gimmicks like working fans and opening doors as wasteful and unwanted tooling cost. 

..... I'd hardly call working pantographs a gimmick; these have been standard practice in Europe since the early days of Märklin........

 

I'm firmly of the belief that working (as in current collecting) pantographs and live OHLE are an unnecessary gimmick.

There's as much of a requirement for them as there is to remove the electric motors in steam models and fit coal burning, live steam mechanisms; or to fit micro sized diesel engines in models of diesel prototypes.

 

Is this perception in some quarters, of the need for live juice to run through OHLE, part of the problem in getting manufacturers to look more favourably on AC electrics?

In other words, is it another one of the obstacles holding back developments in this area?

 

I guess we've opened up another can of wiggly things here?

 

 

p.s. Ravenser; I think "proper" working fans would be a good feature, but not the rubbish toy implementation of working fans that Hornby uses.

[Ian J.]

...They are a Belgian company with spin off companies such as ACME (who produce highly detailed Italian HO electrics). They are not an affiliated company like the ones you mention, but are much smaller and more specialised than say Roco or Fleischmann. Their models are usually limited runs and many have to be reserved in advance. Although expensive, I think they compare very favourably in terms of price with British manufacturers offerings, when you see the detail and the quality...

 

It's something like this, only with British outline models to better track standards, that I'd love to see in existence. Limited quantities to a very high (and correctly designed) standard, but probably in a similar price bracket (£200+ per loco, £50+ per coach, etc. Actually, we're not far away from these prices now with some RRP on non-'design clever' Hornby coaches, which would only need their back to backs kept out to 14.5mm+ to be of such a standard). I may not be able to afford them now, but it's that quality I aspire to being able to get to and use if (hopefully when) my working life gets back online.

[paulbb]

Working pantographs AND live catenary were 'normal' for the models in the Triang 4mm and Trix 3.8mm ranges in the years of the late 50's early 60's.....I remember that they worked just fine and were above alll..fun.

Now people tell me that DCC 'prevents' this...surely some mistake?

[ThaneofFife]

The line of thought that there is no demand for more AC electrics seems highly flawed if the sole reason for it is a lack of OHLE.

I'm sorry but that argument holds zero water - look at this way if we had sublime high detailed accurate OHLE with a choice of whether if could be "live" too, where would we be then?  Exactly we'd have no models (new ones that is) to run them under.  Its a complete red herring to suugest otherwise.  I can see the chicken and egg side of the argument but I cant see the market now waiting for RTP catenary in order that it then justify bringing along models that are on a par with current RTR diesels.

 

I do favour the AC electric locos so one could argue that I am bound to offer a biased opinion - thats fair enough but really, do we want the catenary before we get any more new models?  Most RTP catenary offerings can involve a lot of fettling to make it fit in with a particular track plan (no two layouts are the same really) and so I reckon a great number of real AC enthusiasts would sooner make their own bespoke OHLE anyway - and catenary that looks right - some going the extra mile with live overhead of thats the route they choose to go.

 

I rather think that common sense says its got to be the other way around - hasnt it? 

 

Would current thinking of ACs be different I wonder had Heljan churned out a flawless Class 86? 

 

I find it perplexing too that the Class 85 is seemingly being flogged off in the bargain basements (and that apparently equals poor sales/interest) when we've had reports of one retailer selling some at discount at the Warley show last year - is that then to be taken as categoric evidence that they are not a success ?  I doubt very few people here actually have a proper handle on the sales of the 85 so I cant help but feel its getting a bit of a bad press if I'm honest.  Probably from folk frothing about their own next wishlisted diesel    Had to get that in...

[frobisher]

 

Now people tell me that DCC 'prevents' this...surely some mistake?

It doesn't prevent it per se, just renders it mostly redundant. As it was, the fun was it gave you a way to run an extra train independentally on the same track (within the limits of common return). Implementing current pickup with catenary and DCC gives you an unnecessary level of pain you can neatly avoid by not doing it.

[phil gollin]

Cor! Eighty two pages, and still going strong?

 

What'll it be like when something actually arrives.....?

 

Happy Easter!

 

Ian

.

 

This thread will stagger on until the Bachmann 2013/14 announcements thread starts.

 

.

[Dunsignalling]

I got my first sight of the new catalogue yesterday and noticed something that I hope is encouraging.

 

The prototype pictures against the entries for the forthcoming Fish van were all of the later BR version, not the one that is readily available as a Parkside Dundas kit and has been previously been produced in r-t-r form by HD / Wrenn / Dapol.

 

If it's right, Hornby will be getting an extra hundred smackers out of me.  PLEASE don't let it be a mistake.........

 

JDS

[Guest oldlugger]

I'm firmly of the belief that working (as in current collecting) pantographs and live OHLE are an unnecessary gimmick.

There's as much of a requirement for them as there is to remove the electric motors in steam models and fit coal burning, live steam mechanisms; or to fit micro sized diesel engines in models of diesel prototypes.

 

Is this perception in some quarters, of the need for live juice to run through OHLE, part of the problem in getting manufacturers to look more favourably on AC electrics?

In other words, is it another one of the obstacles holding back developments in this area?

 

I guess we've opened up another can of wiggly things here?

 

 

p.s. Ravenser; I think "proper" working fans would be a good feature, but not the rubbish toy implementation of working fans that Hornby uses.

British modellers do have an odd aversion to working catenary which baffles me, but c'est la vie. The aforementioned is no more a gimmick than P4, working fans, sound, working colour light signals, smoke generators, working loco lights, etc, etc. It happens on the prototype so why not replicate it in model form? I firmly believe that British modellers will be offered sub standard, vaguely accurate electric locos and units as a result of this lack lustre response. The big manufacturers must pick up on this reluctance to adopt working catenary, and therefore, feel "why bother offering quality models, if we're essentially wasting our time and investment?" Surely it would be better to offer the option of using the overhead or not, like all European manufacturers do, by putting a switch on the loco? It beggars belief that because in the UK many modellers see working overhead in the same light as Vlad the Impaler that we don't have a single scale electric (as far as I know) capable of being powered from the overhead out of the box! It's the 21st Century with 14th Century attitudes. I doubt we'll ever see a loco like this in Britain which is a sad testament to what people "apparently" want.

 

Simon

[ThaneofFife]

No, I fully agree with Ron thrice and Oldlugger, catenary with the juice is the ultimate but is rather gimmicky IMO too especially as visually you wouldnt even know it was working catenary !

 

That said Hornby used to offer working catenary for the Class 86, 90 and 91s back in the early 90s I think it was, or possibly late 80s, but anyway it looked god awful - white plastic, very chunky but I guess ideal for the train setters of the day (which in itself is a bit of an oxymoron if you ask me).  I actually think the earlier Triang stuff looked more the part !

 

You watch, a new stream of 81s, 87s and 90s and the RTP catenary will soon appear........

[coachmann]

No bias here as I couldn't give a crap what turns ralway modellers on. But steam outline modelling does have a pedigree that Diesel and electric modelling patently lacks. Folk have been been building their steam locos for decades. They chose what to model and built their locos accordingly, or had them built for them. I have never seen this with diesels or electrics. No doubt some will say, "Well we would have built them if someone had produced kits"... Oh yeh, suprise me!   I am not the only model builder who senses that modern image modelling is really dependant on what the proprietary plastic RTR companies produce for this sector.

 

RTR was always based on mass-production, not low-volume sales. Realistically, how many people in the UK really wants to model the electrified West Coast mainline as it was from the 1960s to more recent times?  Enough to make it worthwhile for a RTR company to produce something? Locos have been done already but modellers keep demanding upgrades like they are expert model builders or something. What they are in fact is 'picky' and that my friends is no way to a manfacturers heart when cashflow is uppermost in a companies mind. If electric outline locos sell like hot cakes then you can rest assured more will follow. If they dont, may I suggest you build your bodies from styrene sheet on RTR chassis.

[Guest Belgian]

Hornby and its predecessors always seemed to favour the Southern Railway.

 

You don't really believe that, do you?

 

JE

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

So why are LS Models electrics selling out as soon as new models are released, with modellers scouring Ebay on the Continent for used examples? ...

 Mainland European HO is a much bigger market than the UK for OO, just for a start. Get a name for high grade products of niche prototypes at what is a reasonable price for HO - and sales will come. I would offer as an OO  parallel the first of the Bachmann/NRM productions. The DP1 model was offered at near twice the price of a what was normal retail for a twin bogie diesel, clean sold out the first batch of three thousand before a single model had been seen.

 

I have written this before and doubtless will again. I have model railway interest family in mainland Europe. Their - and their friends - layouts feature veel / viel / beaucoup examples of electric overhead traction: complete overhead wiring representations on the layouts: geen / kein / rien. These are the majority purchasers who make the market a large one, got a home layout used by the family, and OHLE is just too much of a liability when kids are involved. (Also once the adults have had a few classes of something good.) A few masts on the far side out of harms way perhaps, to set the scene. Complete knitting is very much the exception.

 

Wonder how many of the clearly at least reasonably successful 4-CEP models sold by Bachmann have ever run on a layout with even a cursory nod toward the necessary third rail? And that's something readily robustly modeled with low risk of accidental damage in routine operation. The necessity of a model of the power system for electrics is a complete red herring: all that matters is whether sufficient  folks like the subjects enough to pony up the cash.

 

I can see the problem with AC electrics: they were part of the displacement of beloved steam. We ran around to see the last of steam. I for example last saw 8Fs working routinely on BR from an electric hauled WCML train. It had a box on the front. Sorry. We'll get the evidence based response from Bachmann. Another AC electric loco = sales were good enough. Abide in patience and the answer will come.

[The Stationmaster]

I got my first sight of the new catalogue yesterday and noticed something that I hope is encouraging.

 

The prototype pictures against the entries for the forthcoming Fish van were all of the later BR version, not the one that is readily available as a Parkside Dundas kit and has been previously been produced in r-t-r form by HD / Wrenn / Dapol.

 

If it's right, Hornby will be getting an extra hundred smackers out of me.  PLEASE don't let it be a mistake.........

 

JDS

Regrettably past experience suggests that Hornby catalogue pictures of models yet to come tend to be on the optimistic or misleading side of accurately informative.  Those who produce the catalogue find a pic of what they think is the right thing meanwhile the designers are busily getting underway what they 'know' is the right thing (even if it sin't entirely right).  The simple maxim is 'wait and see' - unless folk think there is enough time and weight of emails and correspondence to steer Hornby designers in the required detail direction.

[Dunsignalling]

British modellers do have an odd aversion to working catenary which baffles me, but c'est la vie. The aforementioned is no more a gimmick than P4, working fans, sound, working colour light signals, smoke generators, working loco lights, etc, etc. It happens on the prototype so why not replicate it in model form? I firmly believe that British modellers will be offered sub standard, vaguely accurate electric locos and units as a result of this lack lustre response. The big manufacturers must pick up on this reluctance to adopt working catenary, and therefore, feel "why bother offering quality models, if we're essentially wasting our time and investment?" Surely it would be better to offer the option of using the overhead or not, like all European manufacturers do, by putting a switch on the loco? It beggars belief that because in the UK many modellers see working overhead in the same light as Vlad the Impaler that we don't have a single scale electric (as far as I know) capable of being powered from the overhead out of the box! It's the 21st Century with 14th Century attitudes. I doubt we'll ever see a loco like this in Britain which is a sad testament to what people "apparently" want.

 

Simon

It could just be that, in modelling terms, overhead electrified railways are a minority interest but the catenary issue (working or not) is a relatively minor part of the problem.

 

OHLE in Britain was installed in a piecemeal way and much of the rolling stock used is route specific. That fragments what is already a niche market and makes the mainstream manufacturers understandably wary of getting involved. Would any of you out there who are into (say) the WCML south of Birmingham consider buying a model of an EMU that only runs on the ECML in Scotland or vice versa?

 

There has been much criticism of the pantographs on certain locos, but if you boycott models, it is likely that no more will follow. If you don't buy them and slag them off on the internet, too; you can pretty much guarantee it. Buy the stuff and pressurise the supplier to sort it out!

 

Most manufacturers will go a long way to sort out problems for genuine customers but 'Modern Image' modellers already have a bad reputation in the trade for not putting their money where their mouths are.

 

As a Southern enthusiast, I have always made a point of buying at least one of any Southern steam model (even the iffy ones like 'Sir Dinadan') on the basis that if this one doesn't sell, there might even fewer in the future. I get my money back eventually by selling unwanted ones after they are discontinued and I know several others who do this.

 

I haven't bought any EMUs because they don't interest me and I am frankly not bothered if 'they' don't make any more. If you take the opposite stance, you are the people who can do something about it.

 

Edited for typo

[DerekEm8]

Whilst I agree that OHL equipments in modelling terms is sadly lacking it does seem a little strange to me that 3rd rail EMUs seem to sell well (?) and are vociferously praised by modellers and collectors alike. BUT no-one seems to commented about the lack of track with the 3rd rail present! Are 3rd rail chairs and collector rail readily available or does the average modeller not really care ? (I do know of the P4 chairs but does anyone else sell them ?)

[Armchair Modeller]

At one time all OO track was three rail, but it kind of went out of fashion

[Ron Ron Ron]

......I do know of the P4 chairs but does anyone else sell them ?

 

Peco have sold all the bits for quite a few years.

[Oldddudders]

insulator chair thingys*,

 

*notice the highly technical jargon.....

"Pots" to the locals. Can be quite fun if they explode, as they occasionally do, although 23.30 on New Year's Eve did seem a little unfair.

[CUTLER2579]

There was an article on their use in a recent issue of "Railway Modeller" and there is also a very good article on the website of

"Southern Electric Group". at :- www.southernelectric.org.uk/modelling/articles/modpeco3rdrail.html

Sorry guys I can't do a link for you as I am Luggite on the use of these things.  

[Saltersbrook]

I can't do a link for you as I am Luggite on the use of these things.  

 

Ear, ear.

 

PS - www.southernelectric.org.uk/modelling/articles/modpeco3rdrail.html

[New Haven Neil]

That's just 'wasted' an hour and a half......excellent link to..

 

 

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russelliott/3rd-4th.html

 

 

...which as a new convert to 3rd rail issues I found fascinating.

[Ozexpatriate]

Clearly there are a number of people who are passionate about overhead electric traction, but I'm a bit confused.

 

Why is it so important to have working OHLE? Surely the first objective is to make it look right and function reliably at the same time. This can readily be accomplished with power from the rails.

 

From an appearance standpoint, I understand why people want properly scaled pantographs and roof-top details. Clearly these should be to the same standard as the rest of the model.

 

What am I missing?

[Oldddudders]

Clearly there are a number of people who are passionate about overhead electric traction, but I'm a bit confused.

 

Why is it so important to have working OHLE? Surely the first objective is to make it look right and function reliably at the same time. This can readily be accomplished with power from the rails.

 

From an appearance standpoint, I understand why people want properly scaled pantographs and roof-top details. Clearly these should be to the same standard as the rest of the model.

 

What am I missing?

I think because you can. We all know how darn difficult it is to get a real reciprocating steam engine in 4mm scale, ditto a diesel. However, as we use electricity to run the train in the first place, making the means of collection real - be it third rail or electric string - seems achievable, and therefore a goal for some.

[Ian J.]

...electric string...

 

Ah, now, that's what this is for: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66949-a-new-way-of-wiring-a-layout/