News from Cooper Craft/Blacksmith/Slater's/Kirk LNER/Mailcoach Kits.

[Siberian Snooper]

Difficult one for him to make progress on now it has been a running sore for so long.

 

If you intend to make a scene at ExpoEM or RailEx please don't spoil these shows for the rest of us.

I've given him earache at the last two ExpoEM's, the last two RailEx's anf the last two ScaleFourum's, nobody has complained about the shows being spoiled for them by me that I know of.

[Wheatley]

So you've had a go at him six times in two years and no coaches have appeared. Do you think a seventh or eighth attempt might cause one to magically pop out of thin air ? I'd quite like some of his permanently-out-of-production bits but I don't feel the necessity to follow him round shows haranguing him about it.  

 

Agreed, it's not a conventional way to run a business but if no 'filthy lucre' has changed hands then he owes you nothing.

[Siberian Snooper]

Each time I have spoken to him he promise's that they will be ready for the next show, so who is to blame?

[Andy Y]

I believe Paul has another 'personal' sign on to RMWeb so we shouldn't necessarily read no activity from Kits from Somerset as no activity from Paul here.

That's true but the other login hasn't been around for a while:

 

OFFLINE Feb 27 2014 09:50

[Coombe Barton]

I went into a model shop yesterday - and they can't get answers either. They're giving up.

 

Pity.

[Clive Mortimore]

This looks like another sad case of someone taking on a range of products and then not being able to produce them and the range disappears. This will not be the first time this has happened or the last.

 

All we can hope for is that these ranges either become available again with their present owner or someone who has the time/ability/want buys them and restarts their production.

[kandc_au]

It seems this thread is going around, and around, and ..............

To me, I would have thought that a business owner would tell you only what he/she wanted you to know and nothing else, be it at a show, on the phone, email etc.

The problem seems that everyone wants things that they cannot get.

I am making an assumption that the business is/has been for sale!

I am assuming that some of the equipment needs upgradeing!

It seems to me that anyone who takes on a business does so for the longer term like shares.

As such, don't expect to make a quick buck....as if you can in Model Railways anyway!

 

Anyone thought of forming a co-operative to look at buying the business (assuming it is for sale) knowing full well the amount of money that would be needed to be spent.

We have 6 pages of bleeting to date without anything constructive put forward that I recall seeing.

There again maybe members are just interested in getting hold of stuff as and when required, and pray it is available.

 

Given I am in a land yonder, I have no idea  who anyone is, but would suggest, that members think outside the box a bit.

Is the Owner interested in selling would be the first question?

Maybe, the owner interested in a partner/partners?

Are there enough members who would be interested in forming a co-op?

People can bring all sorts of skills as a group, so the idea should not be discounted out of hand!

Skills can be in Sales, Mouldmaking/Fitter/turner, just a general all around hack, maybe just putting up some money, dare I suggest handling all enquiries

It can also help with regards to workloads on 1 person as opposed to 6,8, or more

 

Either way, just saying he said this/ I heard that, is NOT going to achieve any sort of outcome that is really required.

 

Just trying to be constructive!

Khris

[Kenton]

 

Is the Owner interested in selling would be the first question?

 

I believe putting that question to him might be difficult as the main problem seems to be contacting him.

 

Oh and "coop" is a dirty word over here at the moment - a disastrous business model - capitalism by committee.

 

Any good business advisor will advise you that partnerships are not worth the trouble.

 

I think we should forget these ranges and move on - there are plenty of good suppliers out there that need our support in return for their goods. Perhaps one day they will add the "missing" prototype to their range.

[Coombe Barton]

Khris

 

My summary from the above

 

• Promises have been repeatedly broken (in some cases)
• Money has been taken but no goods have been forthcoming (in at least one case)
• Emails have not been answered
• Andy Y has tried to help
• The business may be sold (I have been told this by trade and I know to whom, but the price is too high)
• Exhibitions have been attended - or not

 

And my list of reasons why people are frustrated:

• Top four above
• No answers coming from any medium

And my list of worries:

• CooperCraft is a well rounded range allegedly supplying material that not manufactured elsewhere
• Previous available ranges have been absorbed into this range
• And these are no longer supplied.
• The ranges that were absorbed were unique in themselves and people had started basing their modelling on material being available.
• That the continues potential existence of this range is precluding other manufacturers from doing anything because they'll be duplicating - and hence not be commercialiy viable.

So really the manufacturer has to come up with something, from this list:

• Selling, lock, stock and barrel to someone who can take it all on.
• Selling bits of the business to someone who can take bits on
• Getting seriously going again and communicating with customers
• Shutting down completely and saying so.

Failing this the speculation will continue.

[Horsetan]

This looks like another sad case of someone taking on a range of products and then not being able to produce them and the range disappears. This will not be the first time this has happened or the last.

 

All we can hope for is that these ranges either become available again with their present owner or someone who has the time/ability/want buys them and restarts their production.

See also Centre Models, Impetus, Sharman Wheels, etc... *rolls eyes*

[PGC]

Don't know about Centre Models, but I have spoken to the current owners of Impetus and Sharman Wheels and as a result, I can't help but wonder whether the sellers knew that items such as moulds were coming to the end of their useful life and it was better to sell the range off before too much money had to be spent on making the range viable again.

 

If that sounds as though I'm slandering the name of the originators of these ranges, ask yourself "if you'd created all the artwork, made all the mastes for the moulds etc. and the range was so good and still selling well, why sell the range  to someone else?"

 

Yes, caveat emptor holds true, but sometimes sellers don't tell the whole truth, then there's no comeback for a buyer once money has changed hands and they, and we, all suffer together. :-(

 

Phil

[Arthur]

I have ridden many leagues here on rumours of Impetus Kits, who here has spoken the name?

 

 

Ah, Ivan, a lament then, not news of progress.....

 

I must haste to Taunton, I have work to do!

[Coombe Barton]

Don't know about Centre Models, but I have spoken to the current owners of Impetus and Sharman Wheels and as a result, I can't help but wonder whether the sellers knew that items such as moulds were coming to the end of their useful life and it was better to sell the range off before too much money had to be spent on making the range viable again.

People get old - and retire.

[hayfield]

Its a great pity that the moulds, masters, art work etc cannot be kept by some form of not for profit group for the benefit of others. I do understand that they have cost the owners money, but if they are just going to be cast aside its a great pity

 

I do recognize that in some cases the moulds are worn out or in the need of repair, or masters missing. But there might be some who would assist in the repair/replacement that is needed

[Kenton]

 

I have spoken to the current owners of Impetus and Sharman Wheels and as a result, I can't help but wonder whether the sellers knew that items such as moulds were coming to the end of their useful life and it was better to sell the range off before too much money had to be spent on making the range viable again.

Not only caveat emptor but due diligence. It is so easy to get advice on business purchase and sale but most ignore this altogether. They start from no or little knowledge of what should be done, asked for and validated, they have no idea of contract definition and may spend as much as the value of a small house based only on a love of the product. Sometimes I feel they deserve what they get - but often believe those more sound minds lose out on the opportunity.

 

Nearly all sellers will overprice their business - as they say there is always some mug who thinks he is going to make a fortune.

 

Most of these businesses are virtually worthless, and that should be the initial approach, with the seller having to provide support for every pound they "value" the business at. This is the hard reality of all such sales. Prove to me it is worth buying and I can make a profit on my investment.

[Siberian Snooper]

Khris

 

My summary from the above

 

 

• Promises have been repeatedly broken (in some cases)
• Money has been taken but no goods have been forthcoming (in at least one case)
• Emails have not been answered
• Andy Y has tried to help
• The business may be sold (I have been told this by trade and I know to whom, but the price is too high)
• Exhibitions have been attended - or not

 

And my list of reasons why people are frustrated:

• Top four above
• No answers coming from any medium

And my list of worries:

• CooperCraft is a well rounded range allegedly supplying material that not manufactured elsewhere
• Previous available ranges have been absorbed into this range
• And these are no longer supplied.
• The ranges that were absorbed were unique in themselves and people had started basing their modelling on material being available.
• That the continues potential existence of this range is precluding other manufacturers from doing anything because they'll be duplicating - and hence not be commercialiy viable.

So really the manufacturer has to come up with something, from this list:

• Selling, lock, stock and barrel to someone who can take it all on.
• Selling bits of the business to someone who can take bits on
• Getting seriously going again and communicating with customers
• Shutting down completely and saying so.

Failing this the speculation will continue.

Coombe Barton

 

I can only concure with your overall appraisal of the situation, I was partway through purchasing a load of toplight coach kits when Dave Smith retired and sold the business on. Ever since I have been trying to complete my collection.

 

It will be a crying shame if we lose these ranges, but I'm pretty sure that Paul bit off a lot more than he can chew and I don't believe he is devoting as much time to these businesses that he should do to make it an overall success.

 

I know that he has a problem with Slaters over the lost wax castings, but I am unaware of any acute problems with the rest of the range.

 

SS

[Jol Wilkinson]

Don't know about Centre Models, but I have spoken to the current owners of Impetus and Sharman Wheels and as a result, I can't help but wonder whether the sellers knew that items such as moulds were coming to the end of their useful life and it was better to sell the range off before too much money had to be spent on making the range viable again.

 

If that sounds as though I'm slandering the name of the originators of these ranges, ask yourself "if you'd created all the artwork, made all the mastes for the moulds etc. and the range was so good and still selling well, why sell the range  to someone else?"

 

Yes, caveat emptor holds true, but sometimes sellers don't tell the whole truth, then there's no comeback for a buyer once money has changed hands and they, and we, all suffer together. :-(

 

Phil

Phil,

 

I know the owners of Sharman Wheels well and the situation is more complicated than the moulds being old. A look at the article on Mike Sharmans original workshop in MRJ issue #5 details the rather "variable" production process which has been one factor. Sharman Wheels are still produced when a customer orders a large enough quantity (3mm Society or London Road Models for example).

 

Manufacturers sell businesses for a variety of reasons, retirement, change of interests, poor health, etc. besides simple financial ones. Too often, as Kenton frequently alludes to, the buyer often bites of more than they can chew, which is rather where I think Coopercraft found themselves.

 

Jol

[raymw]

What is the problem here? Is it that you have paid money and not had the goods, or is it that you are expecting a production re-run just for the few items you want? I phoned  Paul today, (at about 11.30am) got through first time, mentioned about the rumblings on here, enquired about the current suituation with Slaters, etc. If he is well enough he will be at Bracknell and Alesbury (I can't read my writing, but It reads like that - the next couple of shows) As I said much earlier, maybe on another thread, it is best to pay for the goods when you get them in your hand, at shows, etc. Even the best run web systems have failures, and no way am I saying that Paul has a brilliant order system, but it has said on his site for some time to make sure he has the items before ordering.

 

So, how many have spent money and not got the goods? That is the most important issue to resolve.

 

I understand that folk maybe phone, and he's not in, or send emails with no response, but that happens if your 'factory' has no phone line, or you're travelling somewhere, and you've not had the business acumen to set up a working forwarding system or whatever.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

[Coombe Barton]

What is the problem here? Is it that you have paid money and not had the goods, or is it that you are expecting a production re-run just for the few items you want? I phoned  Paul today, (at about 11.30am) got through first time, mentioned about the rumblings on here, enquired about the current suituation with Slaters, etc. If he is well enough he will be at Bracknell and Alesbury (I can't read my writing, but It reads like that - the next couple of shows) As I said much earlier, maybe on another thread, it is best to pay for the goods when you get them in your hand, at shows, etc. Even the best run web systems have failures, and no way am I saying that Paul has a brilliant order system, but it has said on his site for some time to make sure he has the items before ordering.

 

So, how many have spent money and not got the goods? That is the most important issue to resolve.

 

I understand that folk maybe phone, and he's not in, or send emails with no response, but that happens if your 'factory' has no phone line, or you're travelling somewhere, and you've not had the business acumen to set up a working forwarding system or whatever.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

That's as maybe, Ray, but this situation has been going on for way too long.

 

It takes communication, not ignoring people.

[PenrithBeacon]

...

 

to set up a working forwarding system or whatever.

 

...

A call forwarding system costs money and it's not a cost a vendor can control. A small hobby based company might not have the turnover to support this item.

 

Regards

[Kenton]

 

I understand that folk maybe phone

 

The main thing here is to read the posts by M.I.B. - it is not always physically possible to phone from out of the country or to visit shows, and some people have to rely on email, or even using the messaging system here. All of which - and all the speculation on this topic - would have been killed dead by "Kits from Somerset" continuing to be involved in communication via this topic. It is his topic after all.

 

As it looks now he appears to be ignoring both the topic and his wider customers - and that is just throwing away any goodwill he has left.

 

 

A call forwarding system costs money and it's not a cost a vendor can control. A small hobby based company might not have the turnover to support this item.

 

A simple answerphone (one that you check frequently and call customers back) costs pennies

A basic requirement of running any business is do not let customers get away. A cringing apology for out of stock, delays with estimates on production and keeping in touch might just keep or bring the customer. First rule of business is keep selling to the walk in customer. They are going to return and will be your most vocal in praising or fastest in condemning.

[Horsetan]

Its a great pity that the moulds, masters, art work etc cannot be kept by some form of not for profit group for the benefit of others....

What, in the same way that Phoenix coach kits have become unavailable even to members of the Southern Railway Group which took over the range about 15 or more years ago?

 

...A simple answerphone (one that you check frequently and call customers back) costs pennies.....

He has an answerphone. He doesn't always respond. I left a message in the run-up to RailEx last year, with my details. No response at all. Fortunately he had the Mk.1 underframe kit available at RailEx, but certain other spares were not there.

[raymw]

I am not disagreeing with any of you, I am fully aware of what is required to run a business. However, not everyone is, and as I said, the most important thing, I would have thought, in the current situation with Coopercraft, would be for those who have paid money and not got their goods, to be sorted out. I am of the opinion that that would need prioritising in case the business changes hands, or goes completely. I am not sure that many are in that situation, other than MIB. The rest of it is probably just smoke and mirrors wrt unfullfilled wish lists.

 

I also think there is an inflated view of the importance of rmweb members wrt manufacturers, e.g. on other threads - Dapol, Hornby, etc. products should be made at prices and details specified by folk on rmweb. As has been mentioned, (by Khris) why don't you get together, organise yourselves, and have your own products made? it must be easy, since so many know all about it.

 

It is railway modelling, not model railway winging 'cos we can't get xyz 1935 whatever in the right colour/whatever. If Coopercraft is not looking at this thread, even if he did start it off, what is the point of the suggestions, etc., unless something can be achieved?

 

So, if has been suggested, the moulds have been worn out, why not choose any model you may think of, how much for new moulds, packaging, distribution, manufacturing, etc? How many will you sell, and how soon. Do you want to field the complaints that for that particular model it should have had such and such brake system, it's the wrong colour, whatever?

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

[Horsetan]

....and why do people respond to some but not others? Is it because they are afraid? Are there creditors lurking in the background doing a fair amount of leaning? Legal proceedings?

[Mikkel]

It's all a bit of a dilemma. No doubt these ranges would be "safer" with larger businesses, such as Peco - and yet without the one-man bands, many of the kits in these ranges would never have been developed in the first place, I think?

 

If it's just a question of people wanting make a quick buck without a clue how to do it, then I have little sympathy. But I'm guessing that in some cases sheer enthusiasm for the subject has played a fairly important role in the origin of these ranges. If that's the case, then it could be argued that many of the "specialist" kits we have today only exist because the originator had a rather relaxed and/or naive approach to profit and market. So if we are willing to take their products and thereby benefit from their enthusiasm/courage/naivety, perhaps we also have to accept when things like this happen?

 

Perhaps it's best to view these ranges as operating outside the market logic.