Landslip at Hatfield & Stainforth

[JeffP]

They have done well, if it does resume then.

 

Talk was of late September at one time.

[jamie92208]

That's great news and speaks of a real can do mentality.

 

Jamie

[BR60103]

How do you learn the route when the tracks aren't in yet?

[Gwiwer]

How do you learn the route when the tracks aren't in yet?

Classroom and simulator.

[R A Watson]

How do you learn the route when the tracks aren't in yet?

Given the short length of the works ( both ends are in sight simultaneously) and it is a simple reinstatement, how much variation from the former needs to be learnt?

 

Wally

[Gwiwer]

There doesn't need to be any variation.  A driver must drive a route at least once in six months to retain route knowledge.  With the duration of this blockage many will have not done so and must be refreshed before they can again "sign the road" and drive trains that way.

[James]

There doesn't need to be any variation.  A driver must drive a route at least once in six months to retain route knowledge.  With the duration of this blockage many will have not done so and must be refreshed before they can again "sign the road" and drive trains that way.

Tamper and freight drivers will be the first drivers over the route so they may be able to conduct passenger drivers who can then resign the route perhaps?

 

 

Services resuming 8th July according to Network Rail:

http://networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/News-Releases/Rail-services-to-resume-through-Hatfield-Stainforth-1db5.aspx

 

This was explained at my safety brief yesterday - will make my life a little quieter when it reopens!

 

Talk was of late September at one time.

There was talk of April 2014 at one point!

[The Stationmaster]

There doesn't need to be any variation.  A driver must drive a route at least once in six months to retain route knowledge.  With the duration of this blockage many will have not done so and must be refreshed before they can again "sign the road" and drive trains that way.

Doesn't quite work like that nowadays.  Although - as far as I'm aware - Route Cards should still be re-certifed at least every 6 months by Drivers the actual instances of working over a route must comply with the 'norm' established by the operating company concerned.  This stems from the later years of BR when we were trying hard to get some measure of order into depots that were going here there and everywhere with - often - very 'thin' instances of working over a route.  Thus the old system of 'if you haven't been over it in the past 6 months you can ask for a refresher' was replaced by laid down frequencies with a standard figure of 5 instances (actually driving) in 12 weeks although some Regions tried to resist this as it immediately restricted some depots - especially the 'troublesme' ones.

 

So the system was gradually evolved - and should have been put fully in place by every privatised operator as part of their Safety Case - that all routes would be assessed by an experienced Inspector and a norm established for each route depending on its complexity, likelihood to be subject to frequent changes and so on.  The operator would then have its list of norms which it would apply through its diagrams and link structures to ensure they were covered or - if necessary - would incorporate planned refresher days into its link working in order to retain knowledge.  It should also ensure, through managerial procedures that any failure to maintain norms for any reason would lead to Drivers taking routes off their card or being given sufficient refresher trips to maintain their knowledge.

 

Norms should be available for external audit and any external auditor should also be entitled to assess - usually by sampling - that they are being correctly applied or that a risk assessment has been carried out where they have been reduced.  Thus if the norm for this route happens to be - say - 3 days in 12 weeks then it won't have been met due to the closure and there will be a need for refreshers (which need not equate to the number of lost instances provided a Driver is prepared to re-certify his knowledge).

[brushman47544]

As James is a signaller,.

 

A what? "signaller" is not in either of the dictionaries I use, but if it did wouldn't it mean that James waves his arms or whatever around ??? A signal operator might be more accurate but he's a signalman as far as I'm concerned (and a fine job it is too).

[The Stationmaster]

A what? "signaller" is not in either of the dictionaries I use, but if it did wouldn't it mean that James waves his arms or whatever around ??? A signal operator might be more accurate but he's a signalman as far as I'm concerned (and a fine job it is too).

Regrettably a piece of 'modern speak' nonsense which made its way into the industry in 1994 following the Signalmen's strike and a number of changes to what their job could involve.  My initial reaction was that as I happened to somewhere have a badge with two crossed flags - which had graced at sometime the khaki uniform I wore once a week - then presumably I was now once again one too, or were they all going to wear khaki or navy blue uniforms perhaps?  Change for change's sake.

[Gwiwer]

Indeed.  While the men and women who signal our trains refer to themselves as "signalmen" irrespective of gender the term used in the industry - and one which must be used by those people when communicating with anyone else - is now "signaller".

 

Thus if you happen to require use of a level crossing where the sign says "Phone signalman" the reply at the other end will be in terms of "Signaller - Liskeard".  As those calls are also recorded AFAIK any slip-up might also come back to haunt the signalman in question.

[James]

Indeed.  While the men and women who signal our trains refer to themselves as "signalmen" irrespective of gender the term used in the industry - and one which must be used by those people when communicating with anyone else - is now "signaller".

Depends which box you ring as to whether the "signaller" or "signalman" answers!

 

One known to the Stationmaster and myself always answers the phone with 'signalman'!

[James]

I think Wally has been the only person to use the word 'simple' in relation to Hatfield!

[R A Watson]

As someone who has been actively involved in P W work on preservation lines for over thirty years my instincts are mainly confined to matters on the ground and between the fences. My reference to the simple process of reinstatement referred only to the application of ballast and track, the majority of the work here is non railway and down to the owners of the waste tip which is the initial cause of the problem and perusal of the pictures here shows the extent of the work carried out so far. It is only now that the cause of the movement has been eradicated that the railway can do their bit although they have made use of the time to obtain and stockpile the materials on site.

 

On the subject of route learning there is a major difference between the terms learning and refreshing, perhaps if the other term had been used my response my have been worded differently.

 

Being stuck down here on the Devon / Cornwall border my knowledge of the geography and lines in the affected area is somewhat limited and I fully understand that adjacent routes have been affected with regard to levels of driver current experience but am sure that this problem will soon be rectified by the resumption of traffic.

 

Wally

[96701]

I'm assuming that the planned service reinstatement date includes any driver training. I'm confident the TOCs and FOCs won't have forgotten to plan for it.

[James]

As someone who has been actively involved in P W work on preservation lines for over thirty years my instincts are mainly confined to matters on the ground and between the fences.

There are quite significant difference between working on preserved railways and reinstating a four track mainline. There's also the added pressure of numerous TOCs and FOCs watching as well as the media keeping an eye on things.

 

My reference to the simple process of reinstatement referred only to the application of ballast and track, the majority of the work here is non railway and down to the owners of the waste tip which is the initial cause of the problem and perusal of the pictures here shows the extent of the work carried out so far. It is only now that the cause of the movement has been eradicated that the railway can do their bit although they have made use of the time to obtain and stockpile the materials on site.

The whole operation and the modern process of project management is wider than many enthusiasts might imagine. I work at a junction which has been directly affected by the rerouted services and speak to people connected with the project from time to time. The main issue hasn't been relaying the track. As you know putting track in is the easy bit! It has been ensuring the ground was stable enough to make the whole thing worthwhile - no point sorting it only for another slip to it up in a few months.

 

So while much of the work on moving the tip is off railway property, the whole operation has been carried with the railway keeping a very close eye on operations from what I understand. Clearly the pit owners won't want a repeat either!

[R A Watson]

James,

 

We are in agreement on all points here, perhaps approach and terminology may differ but I think we both know where each other is coming from.

 

There is avast difference between the preserved and main line worlds, but there is also a vast difference in the machinery and manpower available to the two sectors, what is easily possible for one is virtually impossible for the other.

 

With regard to project managemt I agree that these things can only be completed with total cooperation between all parties. My intention was to emphasise that the majority of remediation was the responsibility of the tip owner not the railway,who in this case can be classed as the aggrieved party.

 

Perhaps we should be looking forward to the first reports of service resumption now rather than discussing differing viewpoints of past actions.

 

Wally

[cheesysmith]

Its been a few years since i worked on the railways, but when i was there signalmen were mnown as bobbys. What happened to that classic old term?

[LNERGE]

Its been a few years since i worked on the railways, but when i was there signalmen were mnown as bobbys. What happened to that classic old term?

I still use it. The first time up the steps i usually say 'Hello Bobby' once my knock at the door has been acknowledged.

[phil-b259]

Its been a few years since i worked on the railways, but when i was there signalmen were mnown as bobbys. What happened to that classic old term?

 

Its gradually slipping away as the old hands retire. The term 'signalman' will eventually go the same way.

 

All the rules and regs now use the term 'signaller', all staff be they the latest batch of NR apprentices or a new train driver are taught to refer to the person at the signal box / ASC / IECC / ROC as a signaller. Furthermore as all phone calls re recorded its an easy thing to pick somebody up on if somebody wants to be picky (admittedly more likely to happen to a fresh recruit than a seasoned member of staff). Then there is the issue that what with the plans to do away with all these signal boxes, the amount of rail staff who actually meet a signalman face to face (and can therefore use traditional terms more freely)  is only going to decline

Edited June 15, 2013 by phil-b259

[bingley hall]

I'm assuming that the planned service reinstatement date includes any driver training. I'm confident the TOCs and FOCs won't have forgotten to plan for it.

I thought it was plainly obvious that they had from the press release linked earlier in the thread.

[James]

Furthermore as all phone calls re recorded its an easy thing to pick somebody up on if somebody wants to be picky

Nobody ever picked me up for answering the direct line from Broomfleet with 'Crabley Creek Power Box'

[James]

One other thing is that 'signallers' will tell people they are 'signalmen' when asked as the public, or at least a good chunk of them, still seem to know what a signalman is

[Fat Controller]

Nobody ever picked me up for answering the direct line from Broomfleet with 'Crabley Creek Power Box'

Thankfully, I've got caller display; when the Works Train drivers 'phone for a lift, I answer as 'Folkestone Taxis'.....

[Judge Dread]

Thankfully, I've got caller display; when the Works Train drivers 'phone for a lift, I answer as 'Folkestone Taxis'.....

Hellfire, Crabley Creek box must have changed considerably since the last time I was in it! Mind you it was 1964 or thereabouts. On the subject of answering the phone with a snappy reply, a favourite around the Hull Corporation telephone engineering staff was "What ever number you have dialled, this is it!".