Bachmann announce Mk2f's

[DY444]

<tongue in cheek mode>

The flickering lights shows the attention to detail.  When the 47/7 push pulls first started there was a problem with the lights flickering due to interference from the FDM signals carried over the lighting circuits.  Iirc the trains were dubbed "the discos" at the time.  Probably more accurate for the Blue/Grey examples as the problem was sorted out fairly quickly

</tongue in cheek mode>

[Bob Reid]

I'd wager however there's far less sales potential in the Network Rail Version. (what  variant do you choose and at what time) The DRS one's are pretty limited in scope as well.  What they chose were 12 vehicles (+2 with minor modification) that lasted from 1979 to 1989 on the Scottish Regions Premier route. plus the Glasgow-Aberdeen's etc.

[159220]

I'd wager however there's far less sales potential in the Network Rail Version. (what  variant do you choose and at what time) The DRS one's are pretty limited in scope as well.  What they chose were 12 vehicles (+2 with minor modification) that lasted from 1979 to 1989 on the Scottish Regions Premier route. plus the Glasgow-Aberdeen's etc.

 

 

Hmm, I would not say there is far less sales potential. If we are looking strictly at the RTR market (not the superb Britannia Pacific Models or scratch build etc), assume Bachmann have designed the tooling suite from the start to accommodate detail differences (ana slides) and assume fairly conservative production sizes, you can do the follow 'fag packet' maths (by no means exhaustive):

 

Network Rail RTVO (DBSO):

 

Bachmann class 37/97 - 37099 (2000), 37688 (2000), 37421 (2000), 97303 (504), 97304 (504) = 7008

 

ViTrains class 37/97 - 37682 (1000), 97002/004 (1000) = 2000

 

Hornby class 31 - 31223 (2000), 31285 (2000) = 4000

 

Hornby class 97 - 97301 (2000) = 2000

 

Total - 15008

 

Now assuming most modellers have gone and bought BTP coaches, we could be conservative and say out of the above, 33% of owners would like to run their NR locomotive with a RTOV. This means there are c.4900 potential sales. Certainly not limited, actually, that is a damed good number for a single coach! 

 

Looking at DRS:

 

Bachmann class 37 -

 

37405 (4000), 37409 (504), 37425 (504) and 37424 (2000) - total locos 7008 in DRS without a suitable coach to go with out in the market place. Assuming only 33% of owners (very conservative figure) want a DBSO in DRS used both in Cumbria as well as East Anglia (9704 has seen extensive use as a BSO in East Anglia). You still have a market size of c.2300 DBSOs - that certainly justifies a production run! Not with standing, put DRS on the side and it sells like hot cakes! 

 

I suspect my figures are very conservative, certainly would not share specific figures. But the point is, there is a huge potential market for NR and DRS DBSOs. I do understand BR sells better, but do not say there is less potential for modern. As clearly, all the above locos sold and need a coach or two! 

[Daddyman]

Blue-grey one in service without end door cover: 

https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p887022113/h36CF6C8A#h29246a8a

[Bob Reid]

Hmm, I would not say there is far less sales potential. If we are looking strictly at the RTR market (not the superb Britannia Pacific Models or scratch build etc), assume Bachmann have designed the tooling suite from the start to accommodate detail differences (ana slides) and assume fairly conservative production sizes, you can do the follow 'fag packet' maths (by no means exhaustive):

 

Network Rail RTVO (DBSO):

 

Bachmann class 37/97 - 37099 (2000), 37688 (2000), 37421 (2000), 97303 (504), 97304 (504) = 7008

 

ViTrains class 37/97 - 37682 (1000), 97002/004 (1000) = 2000

 

Hornby class 31 - 31223 (2000), 31285 (2000) = 4000

 

Hornby class 97 - 97301 (2000) = 2000

 

Total - 15008

 

Now assuming most modellers have gone and bought BTP coaches, we could be conservative and say out of the above, 33% of owners would like to run their NR locomotive with a RTOV. This means there are c.4900 potential sales. Certainly not limited, actually, that is a damed good number for a single coach! 

 

Looking at DRS:

 

Bachmann class 37 -

 

37405 (4000), 37409 (504), 37425 (504) and 37424 (2000) - total locos 7008 in DRS without a suitable coach to go with out in the market place. Assuming only 33% of owners (very conservative figure) want a DBSO in DRS used both in Cumbria as well as East Anglia (9704 has seen extensive use as a BSO in East Anglia). You still have a market size of c.2300 DBSOs - that certainly justifies a production run! Not with standing, put DRS on the side and it sells like hot cakes! 

 

I suspect my figures are very conservative, certainly would not share specific figures. But the point is, there is a huge potential market for NR and DRS DBSOs. I do understand BR sells better, but do not say there is less potential for modern. As clearly, all the above locos sold and need a coach or two! 

 

 

The problem with any guess at potential sales, is that is all it is -  a guess.  The NR and DRS versions are limited to a fairly short time span with no idea of demand whereas the existing tooling starting with the basic BSO conversion provides for 10 years of their life with the potential for add-on sales for 17 locomotives (albeit of the same sub-class) that have not failed to sell over the last 38 years by no less than 3 manufacturers and as a basis for conversion, from another 2.  In all that time they've featured on many Post 1979 layouts - Scottish or otherwise.  Post 1989 requires only minor modifications whereas the NR version needs not only the front changed (to at least one of several variants) and likewise both the sides and underframe moulding.

 

Clearly there is some sales potential for the NR version but I would reckon that's more likely to be taken up by either by conversion kits or by a Limited Edition special from one of the Magazines.  More likely, we would see the InterCity and One versions of the DBSO, long before any NR version.

[Bob Reid]

Blue-grey one in service without end door cover: 

https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p887022113/h36CF6C8A#h29246a8a

 

`Good find there. Fresh off the works that one - you can smell the paint!

[wombatofludham]

I'd be surprised if Bachmann haven't plans at some stage to do the Inter City and Anglia versions, especially when it would justify an Anglia rake of Mk2s and Mk2 RFB which Anglia used on some of their "high capacity" rakes.  In fact a number of very tatty ex Virgin and Freightliner triple grey Class 90s ran with the Anglia Mk2 rakes in 2003-5 so that would make for a nice micro-range in itself, especially if they also did an Anglia Class 150!

[ThaneofFife]

Take extra care when handling the DBSO or the BSO as there are some fragile looking additional brake gear plastic details under the coach that are exposed to big fat fingers holding the coaches the wrong way.

 

My blue and grey BSO and TSO arrived earlier - lovel weighty models.   Further inspection later today plus I need to test the lighting out........

 

Note sure there is enough room to increase the B2B for EM running but I dare say somebody who has done it will be along shortly to advise if its doable..

[ThaneofFife]

Tested the lighting out on DC and all is working fine.  On camera the lighting still appears much brighter than in reality and is really very good.  Once on DCC I will adjust the CV to dim them down to about 3 or 4 from 7. 

 

One question I have is whether people believe the "Inter-City" branding on the blue grey BSO is in the correct position.  See photo attached.  On the TSO the Inter-City branding starts immediately in the line with the first theatre window (left hand edge) which I think is the correct placement but I see on the BSO it is positioned nearer to the door.  Is this correct as I have seen a few google images that suggest its in the wrong position but they might be Mk2e's not f's.

Edited December 3, 2018 by ThaneofFife

[ThaneofFife]

some images of the lighting...... 

[raetiamann]

Smashing shots ToF. What camera and settings did you use

[cravensdmufan]

Tested the lighting out on DC and all is working fine.  On camera the lighting still appears much brighter than in reality and is really very good.  Once on DCC I will adjust the CV to dim them down to about 3 or 4 from 7. 

 

One question I have is whether people believe the "Inter-City" branding on the blue grey BSO is in the correct position.  See photo attached.  On the TSO the Inter-City branding starts immediately in the line with the first theatre window (left hand edge) which I think is the correct placement but I see on the BSO it is positioned nearer to the door.  Is this correct as I have seen a few google images that suggest its in the wrong position but they might be Mk2e's not f's.

I agree - the Inter-City lettering on the one at the back does look wrong. Too far to the left.  But that's not to say some were lettered like this!

 

Will be checking my many rail blue era railway photo books and magazines over the next few days.

 

Sometimes Bachmann happen to choose an "out of the ordinary" prototype example - it was the case with the blue/grey class 101 dmu, but fortunately was spotted by RMWeb members at the pre production stage, and was much highlighted on here - as a result the production model was "standard" ratio of blue and grey.  

[ThaneofFife]

Smashing shots ToF. What camera and settings did you use

 

just standard setting for those.  the night mode on my phone can be a bit blurry so I didn't bother using that. are there better settings I should try for future pics?

[ThaneofFife]

I agree - the Inter-City lettering on the one at the back does look wrong. Too far to the left.  But that's not to say some were lettered like this!

 

Will be checking my many rail blue era railway photo books and magazines over the next few days.

 

Sometimes Bachmann happen to choose an "out of the ordinary" prototype example - it was the case with the blue/grey class 101 dmu, but fortunately was spotted by RMWeb members at the pre production stage, and was much highlighted on here - as a result the production model was "standard" ratio of blue and grey.  

 

I will be very keen to hear what your books show.   I have now googled some images and it does seem these aircon BSO's have the branding in the same place at the passenger end as the FO and TSO.

 

Be good to hear from Bachmann too - I will drop them a line this morning.  Is it worth returning this model?   I am not sure yet unless the artwork for this model was based on the actual Eastern Region coach number E9514.   What I can say is that its the same distance from the coach end on the other side too so is at least consistent on both sides of the model but still not sure if the prototype ever carried the branding in that position generally speaking.  Maybe if it is wrong I will have to either remove it and apply transfers (not ideal on the most expensive mainstream coaches on sale today but modelling WCML would require a renumber anyway) or live with it.  It is a minor gripe but my eyes are drawn to it everytime now I have seen the TSO. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by ThaneofFife

[ThaneofFife]

Looking at the Executive liveried versions of the same coach 39-701 and 39-701DC the Inter-City branding is positioned in the same place as on the FO and TSO so those coaches all follow the same uniformity.  It also looks "right" too on the Executive BSO when aligned with that first window.  The more I look at the blue grey version now the more wrong it looks.

 

An email has gone to Bachmann now to check on the artwork vs prototype.

 

Maybe if it is wrong they can catch it before the N gauge version is manufactured......unless they have spotted it already

 

the branding position on the farish image for 374-692 executive BSO also looks totally wrong. there is currently no image for the blue grey version.

Edited December 4, 2018 by ThaneofFife

[John M Upton]

Be careful that Bachmann often use the catalogue or product images of the OO scale version in the N scale listings though.

[raetiamann]

just standard setting for those.  the night mode on my phone can be a bit blurry so I didn't bother using that. are there better settings I should try for future pics?

There may be but I'm like you and tend to use automatic settings. Maybe someone else can advise.

[ThaneofFife]

Be careful that Bachmann often use the catalogue or product images of the OO scale version in the N scale listings though.

 

yes they have done this for quite a few years now so people need to check for the giveaway Rapido coupler in the photo (or not) and on the executive BSO in the Farish section it does appear they have used an old photo of a 00 gauge version probably used for illustration purposes as the 00 version was way ahead in the pipeline than the N gauge versions (and is likely to be a hand painted or pre-pro sample?).  but then that same 00 gauge coach that has now been released has the branding in the correct location uniform with the FO and TSO and its new updated photo in the Branchline range shows this actual coach.

 

No word back as yet from Bachmann...………...I have now seen some photos where the branding is in the same position as the model but its not easy to see the numbers or spot whether its a D E or F coach or find photos old enough to represent this coach in the early blu grey era.

 

I actually think that on the BSO model the branding is correctly placed looking at it from the guards compartment side/ end where it is near to the coach end but that its possibly an error on the opposite side at the passenger end.

Edited December 4, 2018 by ThaneofFife

[Flood]

I've looked through the 1976 and 1978 RCTS Coaching Stock books, all the Platform 5 Coaching Stock books from 1979 to 1988, Rolling Stock Recognition Coaching Stock (both editions) and finally Mk2 The design that launched InterCity - no photos at all of Mk2F BSOs in blue and grey.

 

I then went through Power of the Deltics and Profile of the Deltics. You can tell between a Mk2D BSO and Mk2F BSO from the door bump stops and I reckon that the brake end Inter-City is correct but I found three photos of Mk2F BSOs at the passenger end and they all show the branding should be in line with the first passenger window. E9514 may have been an exception but I have not found any photo to prove this.

 

The curve of the bodyside tends to move the branding to the left on photos of the passenger end (depending on the angle of the photo). I have therefore compared the branding position to that of the next few coaches to see how they all relate.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Flood

[ThaneofFife]

thanks flood - thats what I reckon too.  printing error on one side passenger end.

[Bob Reid]

thanks flood - thats what I reckon too.  printing error on one side passenger end.

 

 

What happened to the pictures you found that showed it to be correct?

[Steadfast]

Looking at pics online it appears the DRS ones have revised lights, so would need new lighting circuit boards, whereas the Anglia, Intercity and NR ones all retain the same lighting setup. This may make it a step too far for Bachmann

 

Jo

[cravensdmufan]

I will be very keen to hear what your books show.   I have now googled some images and it does seem these aircon BSO's have the branding in the same place at the passenger end as the FO and TSO.

 

Be good to hear from Bachmann too - I will drop them a line this morning.  Is it worth returning this model?   I am not sure yet unless the artwork for this model was based on the actual Eastern Region coach number E9514.   What I can say is that its the same distance from the coach end on the other side too so is at least consistent on both sides of the model but still not sure if the prototype ever carried the branding in that position generally speaking.  Maybe if it is wrong I will have to either remove it and apply transfers (not ideal on the most expensive mainstream coaches on sale today but modelling WCML would require a renumber anyway) or live with it.  It is a minor gripe but my eyes are drawn to it everytime now I have seen the TSO. 

Well I spent a happy few hours trawling through books, magazines and my own photos.

 

Unfortunately no side on views of blue grey Mk2f BSOs (let alone E9514!) - in fact not many of aircon brakes at all.  Most of those that I did find were either 1st class or ones showing the brake end side grrrr.! 

 

I would say that every photo of BSOs (and TSOs) show the left hand side of the Inter-City legend lines up to below the left side of the window,  Except on the brake end sides where it lines up under the left side of the square window.

 

So, in my opinion Bachmann have printed the legend on the passenger end at the same position distance as the brake end - which is wrong. Like ToF, I think it looks odd - and the more I look at it the more convinced I am that it's an error!  I won't bother to alter mine - just run it with the correct side facing the front of the layout!

 

Best I could come up with shown here (apologies for the cruel enlargements).

 

Edit -  and......is the passenger end legend printed slightly too high?!

Edited December 4, 2018 by cravensdmufan

[ThaneofFife]

What happened to the pictures you found that showed it to be correct?

 

I found 3 images and they all only show one side - the side that we now believe is accurate (not the side where the Inter-City lettering is placed at the passenger end of a BSO).  They could also have been Mk2e not f.

[ThaneofFife]

yes I might have to run it the correct way around. doubt Bachmann will take them back LOL.

 

i think the brake end legend was placed closer to the coach end so that the lettering was unfettered by the doors to the parcels cage area.  Dare say it was far easier to apply onto a flat surface without slicing it up to fit the door gaps, stoppers, handles etc

 

still- im looking forward to hearing from Bachmann on this - maybe E9514 was a BR one off that Bachmann authentically reproduced.  follow up emailed today.

 

hopefully the N gauge one wont have the same apparent mistake......

Edited December 5, 2018 by ThaneofFife