Thompson Vestibuled Main Line Stock (retooled)

[Jub45565]

If you are referring to late LNER and earlier BR carriage working books then the Thompson vestibuled (gangwayed) stock is referred to by type and with the additional description 'transverse corridor', usually indicated by a symbol in the working that is previously identified with the full list carriage codes found near the front of the document.

Thanks - I had noticed the code at the front of the document, & wondered what transverse corridor referred to, but can't see any references to it in use within the document! It is the 1958 set I am looking at.

 

What was the operational need to differentiate? I understand segregation by gangway & coupling type, & number of available seats or quantity of luggage space.

 

The BR mark 1 stock is designated r, & prsumably to show as top link stock. Could it be that the Thompson stock was differentiated in the early 50s, but once enough Mark 1s were in circulation they were seen alongside the Gresley stock?

[Pint of Adnams]

Thanks - I had noticed the code at the front of the document, & wondered what transverse corridor referred to, but can't see any references to it in use within the document! It is the 1958 set I am looking at.

 

What was the operational need to differentiate? I understand segregation by gangway & coupling type, & number of available seats or quantity of luggage space.

 

The BR mark 1 stock is designated r, & prsumably to show as top link stock. Could it be that the Thompson stock was differentiated in the early 50s, but once enough Mark 1s were in circulation they were seen alongside the Gresley stock?

It was more a case in the early years to ensure that it was rostered in the more prestige workings - you will perhaps have noted the rapidity with which the Thompson coaching stock (save the catering facilities, for which there were few Thompson types or no BR Mk1 equivalents for some years) appeared in the East Coast and other prestige workings? And of course the East Coast prestige sets were also pressure ventilated with the solebars covered too - a further detail difference not provided for by Bachmann.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Pint of Adnams

[Pint of Adnams]

Thought I'd bump this in anticipation, and share some basic research.   Bachmann are doing five types, based on Diagrams 329 (TK), 332 (FK), 328 (CK), 346 (BTK) and 345 (BCK). These were all built with square-cornered windows up until 1948, and round-cornered ones from 1949 - Bachmann are doing the square ones. The respective numbers built were, roughly, TK 285 square/167 round, FK 22/67, CK 49/61, BSK 36/46. BCK, 30/10.

 

Interesting that there were twice as many square-cornered TKs as all the other square-cornered types put together.  Also noteworthy that the square-cornered BSKs only just outnumbered the similar BCKs.  

 

Looking forward to these, and crossing my fingers that the crimson and cream isn't that far removed from Hornby's Gresleys. 

But in quoting those relative proportions you also need to extract those built with pressure ventilation and solebars covered for the prestige East Coast workings which, as they were amongst the first to be 'converted' from Gresley stock, would be predominantly square-cornered window types. I noted much earlier in this thread the greater and universal need for the round-cornered window types.

[trevor7598]

But in quoting those relative proportions you also need to extract those built with pressure ventilation and solebars covered for the prestige East Coast workings which, as they were amongst the first to be 'converted' from Gresley stock, would be predominantly square-cornered window types. I noted much earlier in this thread the greater and universal need for the round-cornered window types.

 

The transition from square to round corner sidelights actually went even further.

The door droplights acquired round corners, as did the quarter lights along the

corridor wall, all having been previously square.

 

All this must have meant quite a lot of re- jigging in the workshops !.

 

It is interesting that Hornby tooled up for both varieties with their Thompson suburbans.

Time for some red square cornered ones ?.

[Pint of Adnams]

The transition from square to round corner sidelights actually went even further.

The door droplights acquired round corners, as did the quarter lights along the

corridor wall, all having been previously square.

 

All this must have meant quite a lot of re- jigging in the workshops !.

 

It is interesting that Hornby tooled up for both varieties with their Thompson suburbans.

Time for some red square cornered ones ?.

'Square-cornered' and 'round-corned' mean all 'windows' (lights, sidelights, toplights, droplights and even endlights on the non-vestibuled vans) save the oval lavatory windows where fitted, so I'm not quite sure what point you are making? In general sidelights only appeared on non-vestibuled stock.

 

Not sure what you mean by 'red square cornered ones' either.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Pint of Adnams

[trevor7598]

When refering to Hornby's Thompson suburbans, It is my belief that the earlier coaches

with square cornered quarter lights, have only been produced in simulated teak.

These would have been re- painted in BR red in the 1950's. Hornby have not as yet

produced this variant in red.

It is my hope that the later plain maroon and lined maroon liveries will also be applied

to these excellent models in time.

[Pint of Adnams]

When refering to Hornby's Thompson suburbans, It is my belief that the earlier coaches

with square cornered quarter lights, have only been produced in simulated teak.

These would have been re- painted in BR red in the 1950's. Hornby have not as yet

produced this variant in red.

It is my hope that the later plain maroon and lined maroon liveries will also be applied

to these excellent models in time.

Oh, you mean BR Crimson (Lake) and then the later (post 1956) Maroon...

 

Lining was only applied to certain stock, typically more common in Scotland.

[knapper]

Regarding these, does anyone know if the LNER teak editions are as imminent as the BR Crimson & Cream ones? They are still given as FEB/MAR on Bachmann.co.uk but no mention was made of them in Andy Y's 'Bachmann January Arrivals' thread. 

 

CoY

 

I've just checked the Bachmann site, and they're listed as due in the next 60 days on the new arrivals page:

 

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/new_arrivals.php?prod_selected=2

[micklner]

I hope the Teak finish still doesn't look like the photos ,when they arrive    

[davidw]

Slight further price rise: £54.95. Will it ever end? Why are Hornby able to do a coach £15+ cheaper?

[Pint of Adnams]

Reviewed in March Railway Modeller - read it in the supermarket this morning and the opinion seems pretty favourable; notes a number of key improvements over the original models. No doubt something more substantial will appear here in due course?

[Legend]

Slight further price rise: £54.95. Will it ever end? Why are Hornby able to do a coach £15+ cheaper?

Because Kader want a larger margin and they've calculated there are enough people around prepared to pay £55 for them, which is probably £47.50 discounted. Just in the same way as they've guessed there's enough people will buy autocoaches at £69.

[davidw]

Because Kader want a larger margin and they've calculated there are enough people around prepared to pay £55 for them, which is probably £47.50 discounted. Just in the same way as they've guessed there's enough people will buy autocoaches at £69.

I do wonder what they'll sell. I'm interested but not in the volume I originally anticipated.

[County of Yorkshire]

Handled and inspected the TK on Tony Wright's stand at the Donny show yesterday. They are very nice and show greater finesse than the old toolings, BUT I was disappointed to see the moulded handrails on the BTK. At £55 RRP moulded handrails - that were noticeable - is pretty galling. 

[grahame]

Because Kader want a larger margin . . .

Do you have any evidence of that?

 

Bachmann/Kader have claimed at their last few presentations I've been to that they haven't increased their margins. And even a larger margin doesn't necessarily mean increased prices - it could be due to cost savings, although all the recent wisdom seems to show increased costs in materials, wages and transportation, and adverse exchange rates, resulting in escalating prices and adverse trading in the model railway market.

 

I guess we live in difficult times and unpredictable futures.

 

G.

[Legend]

Do you have any evidence of that?

Bachmann/Kader have claimed at their last few presentations I've been to that they haven't increased their margins. And even a larger margin doesn't necessarily mean increased prices - it could be due to cost savings, although all the recent wisdom seems to show increased costs in materials, wages and transportation, and adverse exchange rates, resulting in escalating prices and adverse trading in the model railway market.

I guess we live in difficult times and unpredictable futures.

G.

No but the comparison was to one of Hornbys ranges of coaches , where the question was asked why are Bachmann more expensive. They are both made in China , using same materials, same labour, same freight costs . You might reasonably expect Thomsons to sell in same volumes as Collett or L&SWR coaches so the argument cost of tooling over lower quantities doesn't explain it. But at end of the day that's the price. Up to you whether to buy or not. Edited February 12, 2017 by Legend

[Andy Y]

Because Kader want a larger margin and they've calculated there are enough people around prepared to pay £55 for them, which is probably £47.50 discounted. Just in the same way as they've guessed there's enough people will buy autocoaches at £69.

 

Hopefully you're going to Glasgow show; Dennis Lovett has asked if you'd like to pop along to the stand and introduce yourself and he will be happy to affirm the points that Grahame has made above. To save you keep going over the same ground again and again and again and again even when anyone explains to you it should help if you hear if face to face.

 

I don't see you grumbling about the price of a Heljan product for instance?

[grahame]

No but the comparison was to one of Hornbys ranges of coaches , where the question was asked why are Bachmann more expensive. They are both made in China , using same materials, same labour, same freight costs.

So it's basically just your option. Having no evidence probably puts such claims on thin ice.

 

They might be both made in China but certainly not in the same factory. So not the same labour, not the same material and probably not the same freight costs. They are not even the same products so they won't even have the same research and development costs. Plus there will be different admin, sales, merchandising and marketing costs. And probably a different accounting system and pricing method.

 

None of it adds up to them simply wanting increased margins in my reckoning. I certainly don't think it can categorically said that is the reason for the price diferences/increases.

 

G

[Legend]

Hopefully you're going to Glasgow show; Dennis Lovett has asked if you'd like to pop along to the stand and introduce yourself and he will be happy to affirm the points that Grahame has made above. To save you keep going over the same ground again and again and again and again even when anyone explains to you it should help if you hear if face to face.

 

I don't see you grumbling about the price of a Heljan product for instance?

Heljan prices have always been expensive compared to rest . Also slightly different as they tend to produce obscure diesels and have supply chain through Denmark. I have bought some of their 26s, 27s usually at much discounted prices . I think they are about £69 on Hattons now. They also didn't drastically increase prices over last three years alluding to labour costs as being main reason for increase. I'm sure there will be lots of people interested on why Bachmann are charging more for ranges of coaches. Thomsons v Colletts is an interesting comparison

 

I've been going to the Glasgow show man and boy since 1973 . Never miss it . Hopefully Friday and Saturday this year.

[stewartingram]

Simple answer if you think something is too expensive. Don't buy it.

But lots still do buy....

 

Stewart

[rembrow]

So it's basically just your option. Having no evidence probably puts such claims on thin ice.

 

They might be both made in China but certainly not in the same factory. So not the same labour, not the same material and probably not the same freight costs. They are not even the same products so they won't even have the same research and development costs. Plus there will be different admin, sales, merchandising and marketing costs. And probably a different accounting system and pricing method.

 

None of it adds up to them simply wanting increased margins in my reckoning. I certainly don't think it can categorically said that is the reason for the price diferences/increases.

 

G

 

You are forgetting that there was a statement from Kenneth Ting, the Chairman of Kader, some 3-4 years ago, that Kader would be seeking increased margins from their model railway design and production to the UK market, to bring the returns closer to their European (liliput etc) levels. For me the problem with the Bachmann statements of their margins/returns, is that they avoid the margins/returns made by Kader. Now of course, why would they or should they know, in a normal trading situation they wouldn't, however Bachmann is owned by Kader and cannot act independently for its source of goods, such that Bachmann product CAD design, tooling and production is carried out by Kader factories. So although there are likely to be tough negotiations with Kader, as Bachmann has stated this year and previously, ultimately they don't have the ultimate sanction that their competitors have of finding another source if their costs make them uncompetitive. They are in a closed chain of supply.

 

Personally I consider that member Legend gets a rough ride when he raises this issue, and to draw a comparison with Heljan prices, as Andy has above, is unrealistic when you know that Heljan does not have a UK operation, and its distribution is from its HQ in Denmark, therefore it has double currency conversion costs (goods bought from China in dollars, converted to krona and sold to UK in krona) and its Danish overheads are much higher then UK with Danish average salaries being 50% higher than UK (2015 values $40,000 Denmark, $26,000 UK). These extra cost issues are readily identifiable which is not the case with the Kader/Bachmann supply cost chain. We make a judgement about Heljan costs on the basis of desirability and whether we accept that extra cost.

 

At the end we all make a decision about whether we purchase a model, based on our desire for it; can we afford it; does it fit in our sphere of interest etc. For me, as I've said before, I find Bachmann prices for the last 3 years on rolling stock to be unrealistically high. You can compare similar rolling stock products from Bachmann to Dapol and Hornby and you will see a significant additional cost with Bachmann. Recently, the Heljan 'B' tankers have been released with about the same full retail price as the Bachmann anchor mounted tanks, and that's with the Heljan additional cost factors. I do find however, that Bachmann prices for motorised models are competitive with others (Dapol and Hornby) for diesel and steam outline models, but not for MUs.

 

The point Legend makes is that the price of the Thompson coaches is significantly higher than similar products made by their main rival within the same time frame and without the added detail. The issue of added detail is oft quoted as the main reason for the higher cost, due to the additional labour content involved, and Bachmann make this point repeatedly in their annual catalogues by dissecting different models to show us the number of components. However, the Thompsons do not have high levels of added detail to the body mouldings, as all roof vents, grab rails and door furniture are moulded on. They do not have sprung buffers. Therefore to me they are main range 'design clever' equivalents akin to Hornby produced Mk1 and Mk 2E.

 

As I said we will all make our own decisions, some of which will be based on the cost, but I don't think that Bachmann statements of their parsimony is really relevant. Maybe someone could ask them if they consider the cost to them of the products to be reasonable in comparison to other Chinese model making manufacturers, and could they seek an alternative supplier.

Edited February 13, 2017 by rembrow

[Legend]

Thanks Rembrow for putting so eloquently the argument. Sometimes it feels like I'm paddling a lone canoe here..........upstream . I really appreciate your support.

[Dunsignalling]

Comparing Bachmann Thompsons with Hornby Gresleys or Mk1s seems pretty pointless to me - I already have all I need of both (though only the Gresleys are Hornby) and just want a couple of Thompsons to strengthen and add a bit of variety to an inter-regional set.

 

My choice lies, therefore, between spending somewhere around £100 and zero. No problem. In fact I'm a bit miffed they haven't seen fit to "work over" the BG as well.

 

Pity the poor Rule-Oner who wants a whole trainload, a set of Hornby Colletts and a couple of new Southern EMUs. No, on second thoughts, don't, it's his choice not to choose.

 

John  

 

PS. Anyone who is genuinely strapped for cash and wants some Thompsons can readily find the old ones for about twenty quid a throw.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[grahame]

You are forgetting that there was a statement from Kenneth Ting, the Chairman of Kader, some 3-4 years ago, that Kader would be seeking increased margins from their model railway design and production to the UK market, to bring the returns closer to their European (liliput etc) levels.

 

 

I think you're possibly ignoring the fact that statement was made many years ago before the Chinese Government initiated wage increases, and now Kenneth Ting is no longer MD/CEO of Kader, plus Bachmann have stated on several occasions that they are not and have not recently increased margins. It's still quite a thinly supported claim that they are playing fast and loose with margins at different business levels that have ultimately led to the price rises when the message has been that it is mainly cost increases fuelled and the result of the fall in sterling exchange rates.

 

But it might be best if you and Legend talk directly to Bachmann and argue it out with them rather than making unsupported claims here. I'd certainly be interested to read about the results of that discussion. Please do report back on it. Certainly some of the price rises have been eye-watering.

 

G.

[Clearwater]

Fwiw, I think it can be a bit superficial to compare pricing between companies. Other than the rrp, we don't know the design costs, the tooling costs, the date contracts were signed on those items and the hedged fx rate in them etc etc. Crucially, we don't know the batch size.

 

Say it costs £100k for both companies to get to market. If H produce 5000 units, their unit price is £20. If Bachmann produce 2500, they cost is £40. Trivial example to illustrate the point

 

Simply, without access to a lot of private information, we can't say whether their pricing is, or is not, too high

 

David