Thompson Vestibuled Main Line Stock (retooled)

[Jub45565]

On the plus side it brings etched kits to be the economical choice alongside the builders choice of detailing.

 

Makes the choice to actually do modelling easier :-)

[cctransuk]

If you go by the immediate postings above , which seem particularly selfish to me, you will end up with European prices and by their own hand" less modellers " . Not very good for the market or hobby I would suggest.

 

Why selfish? I gave no indication whether or not I would be able to afford the increased prices.

 

The bottom line is that Bachmann have chosen to charge increased prices - buy their products or don't; the choice is yours.

 

If they have got it wrong then they'll either :-

 

1] have to reduce their prices, (if they can afford to do so);

 

2] decide not to produce similar products in future.

 

The chance of products failing just because of a straight price comparison with Hornby products is minimal; the chance of direct duplication of coaching stock , for instance, is not high. If you want Thompson stock in the foreseeable future, buy Bachmann; build kits; or do without !

 

Crying "It's not fair"! will make zero difference to the ultimate outcome.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited August 13, 2015 by cctransuk

[Nimbus]

Price (but no date) now showing on Bachmann website - £52.95.

 

There was I, feeling slightly smug that I'd offloaded my set of the original run "before the bottom drops out of the market" when these were first announced, for around 1/3 of this figure!

 

The Nim.

[JeremyC]

The original price was £30.35. Most retailers to sell at about the £25 mark. This price is absurd, and requires a rethink. The UK market is not the same as Europe. A fact that seems to elude Bachmann

But for equivelent quality it costs Bachmann the same to manufacture as it does for the European market. Bachmann are in business to make a profit and if they can allocate all the production slots to a more profitable European market they will. A fact that seems to elude many British Modellers. 

[micklner]

Why selfish? I gave no indication whether or not I would be able to afford the increased prices.

 

The bottom line is that Bachmann have chosen to charge increased prices - buy their products or don't; the choice is yours.

 

If they have got it wrong then they'll either :-

 

1] have to reduce their prices, (if they can afford to do so);

 

2] decide not to produce similar products in future.

 

The chance of products failing just because of a straight price comparison with Hornby products is minimal; the chance of direct duplication of coaching stock , for instance, is not high. If you want Thompson stock in the foreseeable future, buy Bachmann; build kits; or do without !

 

Crying "It's not fair"! will make zero difference to the ultimate outcome.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

  

 

Why selfish? I gave no indication whether or not I would be able to afford the increased prices.

 

The bottom line is that Bachmann have chosen to charge increased prices - buy their products or don't; the choice is yours.

 

If they have got it wrong then they'll either :-

 

1] have to reduce their prices, (if they can afford to do so);

 

2] decide not to produce similar products in future.

 

The chance of products failing just because of a straight price comparison with Hornby products is minimal; the chance of direct duplication of coaching stock , for instance, is not high. If you want Thompson stock in the foreseeable future, buy Bachmann; build kits; or do without !

 

Crying "It's not fair"! will make zero difference to the ultimate outcome.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

 

       The sad thing about all this is why are Bachmann pushing the price rises so hard?

 

       Its been said before less than zero inflation in the UK, China have just devalued their currency, oil prices low ,so other than Chinese workers getting a well deserved pay rise which at a guess is still abysmal compared to the UK rates. The USA Dollar has been mentioned as the trading currency ,so what has that to do with Chinese workers wages as I have yet read any other reason given for the OTT rises.

 

      As already said two options buy or not, luckily for me I am a modeller so the not option for me. Yet again not everybody models and are reliant on r.t.r. to enjoy their hobby.

 

      A sad state of affairs and does this hobby no good at all. One look at the prices and many will just choose another hobby, in particular most youngsters have no chance of starting in Model Railways. Where will this leave the manufactures in a few short years to come . Model shops are already a dying breed due to prices, they won't be far behind at this rate.

[County of Yorkshire]

 A sad state of affairs and does this hobby no good at all. One look at the prices and many will just choose another hobby, in particular most youngsters have no chance of starting in Model Railways. Where will this leave the manufactures in a few short years to come . Model shops are already a dying breed due to prices, they won't be far behind at this rate.

 

This is the elephant in the room. Spot on. 

 

Above-inflation price rises are one thing, but pricing out all but those with handsome disposable incomes is another. 

[exet1095]

The Dapol ex-Airfix coaches, assembled, come in at around £11-12. Add some flush glazing and wire filler pipes and they would be no worse than the Bachmann Portholes (which look very flat and poorly-detailed compared to the Hornby Staniers). Maybe an extra £5?

 

They're also made in the UK.

[TheSignalEngineer]

There was I, feeling slightly smug that I'd offloaded my set of the original run "before the bottom drops out of the market" when these were first announced, for around 1/3 of this figure!

 

The Nim.

You could still pick up an original set for quite a reasonable price and do a few improvements.

[great northern]

On the plus side it brings etched kits to be the economical choice alongside the builders choice of detailing.

 

Makes the choice to actually do modelling easier :-)

But if you go on Wizard Models web site, you will find that a kit for a Thompson coach will cost you £45.50. Then you have to spend time building and painting it, so I'm struggling to see how that is the economical choice. And if you want a good builder and painter to do the job for you, you will get no change out of £250-300. Doesn't that make £50 odd RTR a pretty good deal?

[Jub45565]

But if you go on Wizard Models web site, you will find that a kit for a Thompson coach will cost you £45.50. Then you have to spend time building and painting it, so I'm struggling to see how that is the economical choice. And if you want a good builder and painter to do the job for you, you will get no change out of £250-300. Doesn't that make £50 odd RTR a pretty good deal?

 

I am a railway modeller. Why would I subcontract my hobby?

 

For me a Bachmann model would require new bogies, couplings and gangways as a minimum too - but that would be the same either way, as is purely my choice.  Upgrading a £25 RTR coach with several add ons is economical against the Comet prices. £50 is breaking even...

 

Each to their own, but there is no law saying we all need to buy x number of blue/red boxes per annum to enjoy our hobby.  Is this RMWeb or RCWeb?  Not knocking the collectors market - without it we wouldn't have had half the choice we do have today - but collecting boxes is not why I am here.

[Dunsignalling]

The Dapol ex-Airfix coaches, assembled, come in at around £11-12. Add some flush glazing and wire filler pipes and they would be no worse than the Bachmann Portholes (which look very flat and poorly-detailed compared to the Hornby Staniers). Maybe an extra £5?

 

They're also made in the UK.

Somewhat off-topic as the thread is about LNER Thompson coaches and the Dapol ones are LMS Stanier!

 

However, I've got a Dapol CK on the go at present with just the windows left to do and am dickering between using the SEF product and waiting for Shawplan to do a Lazerglaze pack for it.

 

The Dapol coaches also need scale-sized roof ventilators, metal wheels and various etched and cast underframe detail parts plus a pair of close coupling units to get them to a level where they will blend in with Bachman Staniers, let alone Hornby's superior ones.  

 

Total cost so far, roughly £30, plus of course, a few evenings of quite enjoyable modelling. Having completed a similar upgrade job on a Lima 42' GUV, I've decided the CK will look better if I replace the skinny bogies with a pair of Bachmann ones and that will add another fiver or so.

 

Lazerglaze, should it appear, will take the budget over £40.

 

John

Edited August 13, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[Opelsi]

Nobody likes paying higher prices (me included), but in basic economic terms it boils down to elasticity of demand.

 

What the market will bare and the price curve against volumes sold.

 

Perceived unusual items may have a higher price elasticity as folks might be prepared to pay more for them. I suspect for reworked items that elasticity is lower as folks make do with what they have, buy second hand, (or enhance with added detail) instead of fork out for a newer version at what they perceive to be an inflated price.

 

Disposable income tends to be fixed (though some may borrow more now and pay back later with their future disposable income). People can only spend so much on modelling and buying higher priced items mean they are not buying other things - only so much cake to go round and every model even from the same manufacturer is competing for it's slice of that cake.

 

Then we come to economies of scale - some costs will be fixed for the manufacture (design, tooling etc) and some variable depending on numbers made (such as production labour costs, raw material costs etc) Manufactures have to balance the volumes produced against these fixed and variable costs while they seek to maximise profits and take into account the elasticity of demand. This can is a difficult balancing act - the more you produce the lower the unit cost and vice versa. As others have mentioned, Bachmann may be trying to test the market strength and depth / elasticity.

 

For me my elasticity of demand increase if it is something I really want - though I wouldn't stretch to a FIA trains LMS twin - I did go for a Rails one. I am however going for a sound fitted Rapido APT-E.

 

With coaches I want to run full rakes (maybe not prototypical but I am more than a bit OCD and it is what I want and I do sometimes apply rule one), therefore if a company produces a nice rake and includes a buffet/restaurant car full brake etc. I am much more likely to by the full set. This is where I see manufactures having to look further than just the sales of a buffet vehicle alone as see that producing a coach like that can actually grow the market for the entire range of a given coach (I do hope they read this).

 

Anyway - we all have our own opinions and it is good to share them on here and respect others views even if we can't all be right!

[Legend]

But if you go on Wizard Models web site, you will find that a kit for a Thompson coach will cost you £45.50. Then you have to spend time building and painting it, so I'm struggling to see how that is the economical choice. And if you want a good builder and painter to do the job for you, you will get no change out of £250-300. Doesn't that make £50 odd RTR a pretty good deal?

But as I keep on saying, this is the wrong comparison, and what makes people like Bachmann think they can charge whatever they want , presumably up to £250 because it's still a bargain compared to a hand made version. This is a mass produced piece of plastic , with some very clever machines decorating it. It is not a largely hand assembled , hand painted coach. Yes there are possibly more assembly involved in this coach compared to Mk1s of 15 years ago , but it's still limited.

[davidw]

We all have budgets and perceptions of value for money. Some folks haven't had pay rises for 4/5 years, others have found saving returns reduced. Or pensions funds not performing as expected. 

 

When originally announced the retooled Thompsons looked like a real bargain. Yes things have moved on. Yes production costs have raised. And yes I hope that these sell -but what is clear is Bachmann also need to really hope that pockets of Modelers are deep enough to take the hit on such items. I note the Birdcage items are even higher. 

 

Personally I don't believe that they will sell at the volume of a lower priced item and there is always a trade off between volume and price. It is unfortunate that some intending to buy many will just get a few. Others will feel squeezed out entirely . 

 

Personally I had expected an RRP of around £40.00, the rise from the original RRP is around 80%. In a previous post I used the word absurd, I hope this is seen as a more measured response. Many thanks 

[Arthur]

But as I keep on saying, this is the wrong comparison, and what makes people like Bachmann think they can charge whatever they want , presumably up to £250 because it's still a bargain compared to a hand made version. This is a mass produced piece of plastic , with some very clever machines decorating it. It is not a largely hand assembled , hand painted coach. Yes there are possibly more assembly involved in this coach compared to Mk1s of 15 years ago , but it's still limited.

But you still have absolutely no idea, as neither do I, of the actual costs to either Bachmann or Hornby of getting these items into the modellers hands. And you ignore the point that why should they shave their profits to sell cheaply to the UK market if they can make more selling elsewhere?

 

If these companies are so profitable why are fund managers not screaming "invest in model trains, now!"

[micklner]

But you still have absolutely no idea, as neither do I, of the actual costs to either Bachmann or Hornby of getting these items into the modellers hands. And you ignore the point that why should they shave their profits to sell cheaply to the UK market if they can make more selling elsewhere?

 

If these companies are so profitable why are fund managers not screaming "invest in model trains, now!"

      Perhaps because they see them as becoming lame ducks due to lack of future sales ? how many people nowadays would invest in a model shop? As to profits you only make profits on anything you manage to sell. if you cant shift them then they sell at a loss. Bachmann is now sitting on a very fine edge which is starting to rock !!.

      I have said it before great make all the detail, but sell them as semi built kits i.e painted and just need the small bits added and at a sensible/attractive price. That way they will sell in droves to modellers and makes it much easier to convert into other versions where possible.

[stewartingram]

       The sad thing about all this is why are Bachmann pushing the price rises so hard?

 

     

 

Don't forget Bachmann were making a loss before the price rises. Economic reality rules.

 

Stewart

[Dunsignalling]

But as I keep on saying, this is the wrong comparison, and what makes people like Bachmann think they can charge whatever they want , presumably up to £250 because it's still a bargain compared to a hand made version. This is a mass produced piece of plastic , with some very clever machines decorating it. It is not a largely hand assembled , hand painted coach. Yes there are possibly more assembly involved in this coach compared to Mk1s of 15 years ago , but it's still limited.

Yes it is a mass produced piece of plastic or, more accurately, two or three dozen such pieces "flying in close formation". I am always astounded at the snobbish attitude within the hobby that, consciously or not, instinctively labels accurate new models made from plastic as cheap and nasty whilst eulogising over crude old metal ones.

 

Yes, I too remember the plastic toys made in Hong Kong in the 1950s that killed off the latter (I was around to play with them) but times and technology have changed. It is a fact that, if you want to produce model coaches in significant quantities for less than kit-build prices, plastic is the only sensible choice of material.  

 

All that clever machinery has to be paid for, housed, maintained and eventually replaced, all of which costs lots of money and none of which applies on anything like the same scale to kit-builders.

 

If Bachmann can knock out 4mm scale coaches for under £60, why do Heljan's O Gauge Mk.1s, made by similar methods, out of the same stuff, cost four times as much? Simply because that's what O Gauge modellers expect coaches to cost.  

 

Bachmann have publicly admitted that they have sold many models at a loss over a number of years. Not only do they have to adjust prices to cover their costs but those costs are increasing and will continue to do so. Their parent company will also, at least to some extent, be expecting their UK arm to redress those earlier losses.

 

Add in the need to compete for production slots with Kader's Continental brands which are traditionally more expensive (and, presumably, generate higher profits per unit) and you have an almost perfect storm. Like it or not, those pressures are combining to move the prices of Bachmann UK outline models closer to those of their European counterparts.

 

That will inevitably price some collectors out of the market and may force some modellers to adjust their layout ambitions. I am in the fortunate position that, having amassed many more models than I actually "need" over the past decade-and-a-half, I am able to pick and choose those new items that I really want. Overall, I will bring home fewer boxes but, hopefully, I will derive more satisfaction from the contents of those that I do.

 

John

Edited August 14, 2015 by Dunsignalling

[rovex]

I suggest that if the end product is too expensive that you buy the brake thirds on release (as there never seem to be enough of them) and then wait for everything else to be remaindered at knock down prices

 

Simples

[Arthur]

Perhaps because they see them as becoming lame ducks due to lack of future sales ? how many people nowadays would invest in a model shop? As to profits you only make profits on anything you manage to sell. if you cant shift them then they sell at a loss. Bachmann is now sitting on a very fine edge which is starting to rock !!.

      I have said it before great make all the detail, but sell them as semi built kits i.e painted and just need the small bits added and at a sensible/attractive price. That way they will sell in droves to modellers and makes it much easier to convert into other versions where possible.

I agree with the first bit, I do think we are at or near the peak of sales/prices owing to the demographics of modellers. The manufacturers will soon determine whether these prices are sustainable. If they are not, we should not presume that they will drop, manufacturing may just cease, or at least, be reined well back.

 

The later presumption, that 'kits' would sell in droves is, to me, less clear. The clamour these days is for excellent RTR with kit sales in decline. I certainly wouldn't gamble on an upsurge in kit building, and yes, I do build kits.

[micklner]

      One of the reasons there is a clamour for r.t.r is that everything is now limited issue whether good or bad quality e.g. Hornbys Book Law , and is shrewdly advertised as such by the manufacturers.

     You maybe right about the kit idea , but a  new type of marketing needs to be tried asap.

[Arthur]

 

By clamour I didn't mean the rush to buy before they sell out, just that the demand is for RTR, not kits. We don't know what a knocked down Thompson kit would sell for, what the market would pay, nor how big it would be. Though you may be right and it's worth a try.

 

The new marketing may be pre-orders only and direct sales from manufacturers, it may just be that is the only sustainable way. I would hope not, we will see.

[GNR Dave]

If this is the price for a faux grained teak finish, then it is on a par with Hornby's LNER 61' 6" teaks, which retail for between £50 - £55. As the Bachmann coaches are still in the drawing office two and a half years after they were first announced, I'm guessing that they won't be hitting dealer shelves 'till next year. I'm guessing also that the simpler to produce maroon, crimson, plain non grained brown 'teak' or blood and custard liveries would, as with Hornby's coaches, be a little cheaper than the teaks.

 

Don't know, just guessing.

[davidw]

If this is the price for a faux grained teak finish, then it is on a par with Hornby's LNER 61' 6" teaks, which retail for between £50 - £55. As the Bachmann coaches are still in the drawing office two and a half years after they were first announced, I'm guessing that they won't be hitting dealer shelves 'till next year. I'm guessing also that the simpler to produce maroon, crimson, plain non grained brown 'teak' or blood and custard liveries would, as with Hornby's coaches, be a little cheaper than the teaks.

 

Don't know, just guessing.

Nope crimson cream same price - maroon not announced yet

[shunny]

As a comparison the last Gresley coach I can find on Hornby's web site is the blue grey buffet now sold out but this has an rrp of £60.25 as yet we cannot say if the Bachman will be the same level of detail but modelling LNER coach formations has never been cheap.