Il Grifone Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) As I understand it, having finally decided that under powered 4-4-0s were not really up to the job and the traffic department not being keen on the proposed compound* Pacific, a 'Castle' was borrowed from the GWR, which proved (obviously) to be just what was required. Being unable or unwilling to meet the request for 50 examples, the request for a set of drawings was also turned down. The Southern however supplied a set of 'Nelson' drawings. The resulting locomotive** thus had rather a mixed ancestry, but solved the motive power problem. * Memories of earlier LNWR locomotives? ** Projected as "Improved Castle class", but it's debatable whether this objective was actually achieved, even when fitted with Swindon type boilers later on. Edited July 13, 2015 by Il Grifone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I was taking the word of OS Nock. About what? The Castle or the Nelson? It was also said that Churchward said that one of my locos (Star?) could pull two of his backwards (L.N.W.R.) then the L.N.W.R wanted to borrow the drawings. A lot of these sort of things can be railway tails (stories) that could have some background. One thing that is sometimes forgotten is that most of these C.M.Es. were good friends with one another. So they did share information with each other. OzzyO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 As I understand it, having finally decided that under powered 4-4-0s were not really up to the job and the traffic department not being keen on the proposed compound* Pacific, a 'Castle' was borrowed from the GWR, which proved (obviously) to be just what was required. Being unable or unwilling to meet the request for 50 examples, the request for a set of drawings was also turned down. The Southern however supplied a set of 'Nelson' drawings. The resulting locomotive** thus had rather a mixed ancestry, but solved the motive power problem. * Memories of earlier LNWR locomotives? ** Projected as "Improved Castle class", but it's debatable whether this objective was actually achieved, even when fitted with Swindon type boilers later on. I would have said that the Scot's have more in keeping with the Claughton (although the Claughton's have four cylinders) like the Nelsons, and the Claughtons have the drive to the front axle this would look to be a better place to start, apart from it having been made at Crewe! Out of interest, when was O.S. Nock born and when did he die, one of my books has a forward from him dated 1980. OzzyO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy2 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 1905-1994 (Google) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I've always loved Mathew cousins what if the GWR had built 50 castles for the LMS image http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/41425-lms-castle/ It would have worked for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46256 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Just looked at the LMS castle....predates the hog warts version.....just to add to the correspondence on the railways plagiarising one another legend has it a group of eastern engineers sneakily up their slide rules over the castle they had on trial.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46256 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 And Mr staniers reaction when he saw the GWR bonnet , his then new LMS team had put on top of his 260.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted July 14, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 14, 2015 Just looked at the LMS castle....predates the hog warts version.....just to add to the correspondence on the railways plagiarising one another legend has it a group of eastern engineers sneakily up their slide rules over the castle they had on trial.... Pedantry point: slide rules were a type of mechanical calculator, not something used (normally) to measure things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_rule Of course they would have been very useful for converting measured dimensions on the prototype to 4 mm scale... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Pedantry point: slide rules were a type of mechanical calculator, not something used (normally) to measure things. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_rule Of course they would have been very useful for converting measured dimensions on the prototype to 4 mm scale... Yes, basically a set of logarithmic rulers - far easier to use in the workshop or at the drawing table than a log book. When I was learning to use my British Thornton sliderule at school, I always remember the teacher saying that it was an AID to calculation, that you should always have an appreciation of the approximate number you were looking for and its magnitude. Not like nowadays when people punch godknows what into a calculator/computer and don't check the output! The railway engineering world was quite odd in the UK - there was quite a lot of ideas swapping and cultural exchange. And Swindon was the go-to place for innovation, especially in the period 1900-25. I'm surprised that the GWR managed to keep things going, what with all the staff poached to sort out messes on other railways and always lending their locos out to show how to do it..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 .... I'm surprised that the GWR managed to keep things going, what with all the staff poached to sort out messes on other railways and always lending their locos out to show how to do it..... Once they'd reached a certain point, they only needed to turn out more of the same sort of thing. Innovation became a sort of stagnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 ... weak spot on the Scots was the axle-boxes ... .and the built up smokeboxes, and the original valve rings, and the frames. The 'rebuilt' Scots were a pure accountancy exercise to conceal the fact that the original Scots were scrapped as the boilers wore out, with the exception of re-conditioned parts that were always recycled between loco designs such as axles and wheel centres. ...It was also said that Churchward said that one of my locos (Star?) could pull two of his backwards (L.N.W.R.) ... As a CME he would have known that to be false. Just put the brakes on one engine, and the other slips on the spot. What he wanted to convey I suspect, was that twice the work (lifetime power output) could be got from his designs as opposed to those of Crewe; this in response to a challenge from the GWR board over the build cost of his machines compared to the LNWR's much cheaper equivalents. He needed a simple concept for the non-technical people on the board to grasp. What the GWR board were looking at of course were outcomes: the GWR's most potent competitor was the LNWR, a much larger business, and equally profitable despite facing a tougher competitive environment. Many of those board members who went to Scotland for the glorious 12th would have travelled on the LNWR and experienced what its engines could do. Perhaps the GWR could get its traction more cheaply, and improve its profitability? Perfectly proper question for a board to ask. What lay behind this is a key difference in steam loco engineering practise. A gross over-simplification, but you need a book or three to really digest all this: Crewe's approach for it's high power designs was a lighter construction for a relatively short life - think 15 years -Swindon's a heavy construction for a 30 year economic life. The Crewe approach had served very well in C19th, because the technology was improving fast: an express loco fifteen years old was obsolete and fit only for secondary work. But by C20th the steam locomotive had matured, and technical improvement slowed to refinement which could be retrofitted to any suitable sound design; so a longer service life design practise became the better approach. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted July 14, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 14, 2015 As a CME he would have known that to be false. Just put the brakes on one engine, and the other slips on the spot. What he wanted to convey I suspect, was that twice the work (lifetime technical improvement slowed to refinement which could be retrofitted to any suitable sound design; so a longer service life design practise became the better approach. I assume he meant that they were pulling the other way... The railway engineering world was quite odd in the UK - there was quite a lot of ideas swapping and cultural exchange. And Swindon was the go-to place for innovation, especially in the period I think they call that "open innovation" now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46256 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 all of which brings us back to the boiler skirt on the gbl nelson..trying to source some 24mmplastic tube....over to b and q plumbing ......with my slide rule,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 It's very easy to bend plasticard over a suitable diameter rod or pipe, and 'set it' by heating with a hair dryer or hot air gun. If you watch closely as the plasticard is heated evenly by 'painting' it with the hot air source, you will see a sudden dulling of the surface finish when the the thermoplastic softening point is reached. Allow to cool, and admire the curved surface you have produced. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46256 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 or the pool of molten plastic covering my tootsies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted July 14, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 14, 2015 It's very easy to bend plasticard over a suitable diameter rod or pipe, and 'set it' by heating with a hair dryer or hot air gun. If you watch closely as the plasticard is heated evenly by 'painting' it with the hot air source, you will see a sudden dulling of the surface finish when the the thermoplastic softening point is reached. Allow to cool, and admire the curved surface you have produced. The other method I've seen suggested (but not tried) is to hold it round a container (e.g. wine bottle or metal tin) of boiling water and leave it to set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrel Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I will volunteer to empty and dispose of the contents of the wine bottle before you fill it with boiling water. My subscription copies arrived today. Still nothing in my local shop 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 (edited) My quote below! George Jackson was apparently asked why his 4-6-0s cost 50% more than those from Crewe*, which were famous for their performance (LNWR practice was to thrash the locomotives and put up with the higher maintenance costs (more easily hidden from the prying eyes of shareholders?) An exchange was arranged and his point was proved. The excuse given was that the LNWR locomotive was not one of the better examples - 'run down' (clapped out if you prefer)....... (Unlikely as the locomotive involved was new the same year as the exchange - 1910.) * Presumably 'Stars' - Probably an exaggeration for effect, but on tractive effort alone they were about 50% more powerful. Edited July 14, 2015 by Il Grifone 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46256 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Mission successful even if from an unexpected source...went into my local model shop...stated I wanted a 24mm od tube....various items offered...eventually the long Perspex tube holding rail lengths...viola...eureka and more foreign words...exact diameter...borrow the shop razor saw and...all i need now is a Lord Nelson.......a bonus...sorting through bits and pieces and a brass Nelson chimney lying there...snapped up pronto...sorry for misleading in previous posts about Nelson it was some of their predecessors the king Arthur's that were built north of the border....the scotch Arthur's.....the bits about the borrowing of other railways drawings though to produce parts for the scot class...and the North British and Derby pooling their talents....can't verify as wasn't present but certainly now passed into railway lore....one last thought read the book by E Cox...weren't the big problems with a lot of 460s.ie Robinson Gcr. Lnwr the build up of ash in the firebox thus creating draughtiing problems...Mr Churchward, solving it brilliantly of course with his 460 family....what a great hobby 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 According to Essery and Jenkinson's LMS bible, An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives Vol 5. "...there was strong rumour that the LMS would have liked to order 'Castles', save that the GWR is thought to have refused the drawings; moreover, unmodified 'Castles' may well have given clearance problems in Scotland. But the Southern Railway was more amenable. It had just completed the prototype 'Lord Nelson' Class 4-6-0 - a design of comparable power to that which the LMS needed - and was willing to furnish NBL with a full set of drawings. When the 'Royal Scots' duly appeared, late in 1927, they bore a fair resemblance to Lord Nelson and this similarity of style and size led to the quite erroneous belief that the LMS design was copied from the SR." "The fact that the boiler barrels were almost identical may well be explained by the fact that the North British Locomotive Company had flanged the boiler plates for the Southern (even though Lord Nelson was built at Eastleigh) and to save time and cost, probably used the same patterns for the LMS order". Looking at Royal Scot, it's pure early LMS. Look at a Hughes L&Y Dreadnought 4-6-0 and LMS Crab 2-6-0 to see what I mean. Walschaerts valve gear, Belpaire firebox and a large boiler of a type similar to MR 0-10-0 Big Bertha's. Why the three cylinders? Maybe because of the Midland influence. I seem to remember reading that they were going to be compounds using the same system as the Midland 4P. But I can't remember the source. Jason 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy2 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 So they're saying that: The SR handed the drawings for the LNs over to NBL for the LMS. The boilers were identical and made by the same company. People at the time (and since) think they are almost identical. But the belief that one influenced the other is erroneous. Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 That was just a couple of paragraphs lifted from the book so it may not read very well. I wasn't going to type all of it out. It would take days. But the main gist of it was that the design was NBLs with Derby dictating certain criteria and styling. Something they also did with the Beyer-Garratts. It also acknowledges that Maunsell had been heavily influenced by Midland design (Q/L1 for example) and his assistant was Clayton who was ex Midland Railway. So that may explain the Midland look of the LNs. We've also got to remember that anyone involved at the time was well gone or very old even when these books were published in the 1980s. So we'll probably never know the truth. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy2 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 The design of what was NBL's? The Lord Nelson? Or was it Clayton's? The 'Derby Influence' is acknowledged, and they're certainly plain-looking enough (like the Royal Scots), but is it parallel evolution or derivation? This isn't very convincing, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 The 'Nelsons', I gather, had steaming problems, of which the 'Scots' were free, so the 'copy' can't have been 100% (apart from the loss of a cylinder). It's probable that NBL being relatively free of Midland influence was able to do the design properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidsmith_uk Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Yippee! Got an LN from Sainsburys, Hatch Warren, Basingstoke. I arrived as the shelves were being stacked and got it before it hit the shelf. Their allocation is only two units. One left, which I am lead to believe by the shelf stacker will be sold quickly. Asda Basingstoke usually sell GBL as well. Manufacture and finish quality is very good. Nice to see window glass fitted and the cab is detailed including separately applied regulator wheel(?). Tie rods are left off from the brake levers so lends itself for a some super detailing. Coal representation is very poor, as usual. This is my final purchase from the series, unless they extend it. I bought the Mallard (since sold), Bulleid, Schools, T9. N, Black 5 and LN and motorised the Bulleid, which was shown on page 92. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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