Level crossing stupidity...

[SamThomas]

On 04/03/2022 at 18:40, johnofwessex said:

 

I suggest that they need to be rolled out across all major roads and motorways 

I disagree - unless it was combined with a more realistic approach & a nationwide review of speed limits in general.

 

Automatic speeding PCN's (from fixed roadside camera's or scamra vans) do very little to encouage road safety. By the time an errant driver gets a PCN the time has passed for eduction. There should be more Traffic Police out there - nothing like the embarrasment of being pulled over & a 5-minute roadside leture from a Police Officer to make you think - all post offense PCN's do is antogonise the driver.

Most police officers take into account things like road conditions, traffic levels, time of day & also how the driver is actually driving when deciding what action to take.

[PhilJ W]

What we need in the UK is a dedicated roads police force like the California Highway Patrol. We are part of the way there anyway as the Highways Agency has taken over many of the police roles such as directing traffic.

[PaulRhB]

On 04/03/2022 at 18:40, johnofwessex said:

 

I suggest that they need to be rolled out across all major roads and motorways 

A Police Inspector once observed to me that it would be more effective if people spent more time looking at the road than constantly checking their Speedo in average speeds because they are all trying to do bang on 60 or 50 due to human nature. Cruise control allows that but it’s still an extra item on higher spec cars rather than a standard fit on more basic models. 
He was realistic that no amount of education will stop a large number speeding but he was concerned about the number of accidents where it appeared observation was compromised by people being obsessed with checking their speed over looking out of the window and following the traffic around them. 
Keeping a set distance is great in theory but how many times in a 50mph average does someone overtake and slot right into your gap? You slow to re establish it and then someone else does it. Meanwhile behind you a ‘phantom wave’ builds and results in a traffic jam. 
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/driving-advice/traffic-jams-what-causes-them/

 

[KingEdwardII]

3 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Cruise control allows that but it’s still an extra item on higher spec cars

Cruise control is becoming more of a standard feature these days. I use it all the time and it's perfect for dealing with speed limits through works sections. It is one feature that lets you concentrate on the traffic around you since you don't have to look at the speedo at all and your foot can be dedicated to the brakes.

 

Yours, Mike.

[PaulRhB]

5 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

Cruise control is becoming more of a standard feature these days. I use it all the time and it's perfect for dealing with speed limits through works sections. It is one feature that lets you concentrate on the traffic around you since you don't have to look at the speedo at all and your foot can be dedicated to the brakes.

 

Yours, Mike.

As I said

4 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Cruise control allows that but it’s still an extra item on higher spec cars rather than a standard fit on more basic models. 

 

But not standard by a long shot even on new models let alone the cars between 5 and twenty years old that make up a large percentage of vehicles in current use. The average age of cars was 8.4 years old in 2021. 
 

[jcm@gwr]

8 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

It is one feature that lets you concentrate on the traffic around you since you don't have to look at the speedo at all and your foot can be dedicated to the brakes.

 

Yours, Mike.

 

I hope that you don't mean you have your foot hovering over the brake pedal,

as that is a recipe for an accident!

You naturally will shift your foot from where it is, left, from the throttle, to the brake,

it's an automatic reaction that happens as we learn to drive, but if you're hovering

over the brake to start with, you'll just hit the clutch!

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

A Police Inspector once observed to me that it would be more effective if people spent more time looking at the road than constantly checking their Speedo in average speeds because they are all trying to do bang on 60 or 50 due to human nature. Cruise control allows that but it’s still an extra item on higher spec cars rather than a standard fit on more basic models. 
He was realistic that no amount of education will stop a large number speeding but he was concerned about the number of accidents where it appeared observation was compromised by people being obsessed with checking their speed over looking out of the window and following the traffic around them. 
Keeping a set distance is great in theory but how many times in a 50mph average does someone overtake and slot right into your gap? You slow to re establish it and then someone else does it. Meanwhile behind you a ‘phantom wave’ builds and results in a traffic jam. 
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/driving-advice/traffic-jams-what-causes-them/

 

Any one who spends time looking at their speedo, rather than the road ahead is a w****r! All it takes is a brief glance, it doesn't need studying.

[kevinlms]

32 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

I hope that you don't mean you have your foot hovering over the brake pedal,

as that is a recipe for an accident!

You naturally will shift your foot from where it is, left, from the throttle, to the brake,

it's an automatic reaction that happens as we learn to drive, but if you're hovering

over the brake to start with, you'll just hit the clutch!

A common fault of those who only drive automatics, is left foot braking. It's a downright dangerous practice.

[zarniwhoop]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

A common fault of those who only drive automatics, is left foot braking. It's a downright dangerous practice.

I resent that!  But seriously, for most drivers I will agree with your thoughts. In my case I have the car adapted with a left foot throttle (pedals at left and right, only one usable at a time) because my right ankle doesn't work (nerve damage from spinal cord injury). So everything is done with the left foot.

[kevinlms]

40 minutes ago, zarniwhoop said:

I resent that!  But seriously, for most drivers I will agree with your thoughts. In my case I have the car adapted with a left foot throttle (pedals at left and right, only one usable at a time) because my right ankle doesn't work (nerve damage from spinal cord injury). So everything is done with the left foot.

Fair enough and for good reason. But I was talking (as you know) about people who use the right foot for accelerator and left for braking.

A dreadful practice and in an emergency it could lead to people pressing hard with both feet at once. This will cause the engine to speed up and fight the brake, lengthening the braking distance.

My late father used to use left foot for breaking. But he didn't learn to drive until in his 40s, which I imagine makes a difference.

[PaulRhB]

7 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Any one who spends time looking at their speedo, rather than the road ahead is a w****r! All it takes is a brief glance, it doesn't need studying.

It was more about the increased frequency with which people look down at it than length of time. If you do 45 in a 50 average a lot of others will try to overtake to do 50, they can’t stand losing a few seconds. Drive and leave a distance so you can just lift off to maintain a gap and watch the car behind come right up to your bumper and brake setting up a wave behind, it’s obvious that they either aren’t paying attention or are trying to bully you into going faster.  Head up displays won’t totally solve it either. A driver at work once commented that he stopped putting his cup of tea on the control stand when he noticed he was watching the steam condensation on the window and had an oh! moment. 
Roadside beacons or voice control are safer ways to set the max speed for cruise than a manual control but still some way off being widespread. 

Much like the main topic here it’s distraction and impatience that cause the problems in the majority of cases. But we can all be guilty of setting off late due to other reasons and then trying to make up time!

[Titan]

7 hours ago, kevinlms said:

A common fault of those who only drive automatics, is left foot braking. It's a downright dangerous practice.

 

I am not so sure, there have been numerous examples of people being killed and injured, often by the more elderly drivers because they were pressing as hard as they could with their right foot on what they thought was the brake, but wasn't.  If they had adopted right foot accelerator/left foot brake these incidents would be much more rare, if not eliminated.

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

If you do 45 in a 50 average a lot of others will try to overtake to do 50, they can’t stand losing a few seconds.

 

If you are doing 45 according to the speedo the chances are it's less than 45 as your speedo isn't accurate (unless you drive a police car which has been calibrated!). It mystifies me why people deliberately go under the limit like that, though, it reminds me of the old joke about the slow old driver who'd never had an accident in his life but had seen loads in his mirrors! Just set it at 50! Adaptive cruise control, is the answer in roadworks, does all the acceleration and braking for you and is definitely the way forward.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Hobby

[mozzer models]

6 hours ago, kevinlms said:

 

A dreadful practice and in an emergency it could lead to people pressing hard with both feet at once. This will cause the engine to speed up and fight the brake, lengthening the braking distance.

 

In my 2004 Isuzu pickup the fuel is auto cut off if you do both at the same time ( found out trying to dry the brake after going though deep water) 

Edited March 7, 2022 by mozzer models

[Tankerman]

11 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

Cruise control is becoming more of a standard feature these days. I use it all the time and it's perfect for dealing with speed limits through works sections. It is one feature that lets you concentrate on the traffic around you since you don't have to look at the speedo at all and your foot can be dedicated to the brakes.

 

Yours, Mike.

 

I had three cars fitted with cruise control before my present one, which doesn't have it. It isn't that much of a problem as most of my mileage is now local journeys, but when driving on motorways or dual carriageways I find that there is a tendency to check my speed at frequently.

 

Incidentally when i bought my first car fitted with it I was warned that cruise control should not be used in wet conditions as the traction control can cause the car to swerve if a tyre loses grip.

[PhilJ W]

7 hours ago, zarniwhoop said:

I resent that!  But seriously, for most drivers I will agree with your thoughts. In my case I have the car adapted with a left foot throttle (pedals at left and right, only one usable at a time) because my right ankle doesn't work (nerve damage from spinal cord injury). So everything is done with the left foot.

 

7 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Fair enough and for good reason. But I was talking (as you know) about people who use the right foot for accelerator and left for braking.

A dreadful practice and in an emergency it could lead to people pressing hard with both feet at once. This will cause the engine to speed up and fight the brake, lengthening the braking distance.

My late father used to use left foot for breaking. But he didn't learn to drive until in his 40s, which I imagine makes a difference.

I was taught to heel and toe by my dad. I only had to do it once when the hand brake on the hire car I was driving failed and I was on a steep hill and was held at traffic lights. I managed it successfully but on some cars I've driven it would not be possible because the steering column is in the way. 

[Mark Saunders]

23 minutes ago, Tankerman said:

 

I had three cars fitted with cruise control before my present one, which doesn't have it. It isn't that much of a problem as most of my mileage is now local journeys, but when driving on motorways or dual carriageways I find that there is a tendency to check my speed at frequently.

 

For busy roads I can’t see the point in using cruise control as you soon catch up with something, especially hgv’s crawling past each other! 
 

Speed limiters more useful especially where the cash cow speed cameras are out! North Yorkshire applies the van speeds rigorously on fuel carriageway roads. 

[Richard E]

13 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

 

I was taught to heel and toe by my dad. I only had to do it once when the hand brake on the hire car I was driving failed and I was on a steep hill and was held at traffic lights. I managed it successfully but on some cars I've driven it would not be possible because the steering column is in the way. 

 

The vast majority of drivers struggle to cope with a maximum of two pedals at once, three at once is really an advanced technique but very common amongst those who have competition driving experience.

 

Having said that my recent (and not so recent) road cars have all had drive by wire throttle (VAG Group from Mk4 Golf onwards) and they all cut power if you try and brake and accelerate at the same time. It can be overcome but, for me, is a nuisance with a manual box, the DSG boxes are not an issue really even when doing a hill start without using the handbrake.

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Titan said:

 

I am not so sure, there have been numerous examples of people being killed and injured, often by the more elderly drivers because they were pressing as hard as they could with their right foot on what they thought was the brake, but wasn't.  If they had adopted right foot accelerator/left foot brake these incidents would be much more rare, if not eliminated.

What happens if the vehicle is a manual? 

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

If you are doing 45 according to the speedo the chances are it's less than 45 as your speedo isn't accurate (unless you drive a police car which has been calibrated!). It mystifies me why people deliberately go under the limit like that, though, it reminds me of the old joke about the slow old driver who'd never had an accident in his life but had seen loads in his mirrors! Just set it at 50! Adaptive cruise control, is the answer in roadworks, does all the acceleration and braking for you and is definitely the way forward.

No "chances are" about it, all speedos have to read at least 5% fast by law. When setting my cruise control, I take the speed from my satnav, which is much more accurate. 

 

However, cruise control often takes a few seconds to slow the car when you get to a downhill section, so it's a good plan to set it a couple of mph lower than the limit.

 

Anybody who doesn't like me doing 48 rather than dead on 50 is welcome to overtake (ignoring the "stay in lane" instruction) and accumulate all the speeding points they fancy. Not my problem.

 

John

Edited March 7, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[96701]

 I thought that I was in the "Driving Standards" thread for a minute. (Hint, hint)

[boxbrownie]

9 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

No "chances are" about it, all speedos have to read at least 5% fast by law. 

Not quite.

 

 

”The Motor Vehicles (Approval) Regulations 2001[12] permits single vehicles to be approved. As with the UNECE regulation and the EC Directives, the speedometer must never show an indicated speed less than the actual speed. However it differs slightly from them in specifying that for all actual speeds between 25 mph and 70 mph (or the vehicles' maximum speed if it is lower than this), the indicated speed must not exceed 110% of the actual speed, plus 6.25 mph.
For example, if the vehicle is actually travelling at 50 mph, the speedometer must not show more than 61.25 mph or less than 50 mph”

 

[melmerby]

11 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

all speedos have to read at least 5% fast by law.

 

John

Not in the EU or UK

In the UK they must not under read but can be from 0% to 10% + 6.25mph high. (EU in km/h obviously).

However manufacturers calibrate speedos to read slightly high so they always comply, there is no fixed amount.

[boxbrownie]

4 minutes ago, 96701 said:

 I thought that I was in the "Driving Standards" thread for a minute. (Hint, hint)

Driving standards whilst negotiating level crossings.

 

[Dunsignalling]

3 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Not quite.

 

 

”The Motor Vehicles (Approval) Regulations 2001[12] permits single vehicles to be approved. As with the UNECE regulation and the EC Directives, the speedometer must never show an indicated speed less than the actual speed. However it differs slightly from them in specifying that for all actual speeds between 25 mph and 70 mph (or the vehicles' maximum speed if it is lower than this), the indicated speed must not exceed 110% of the actual speed, plus 6.25 mph.
For example, if the vehicle is actually travelling at 50 mph, the speedometer must not show more than 61.25 mph or less than 50 mph”

 

Pretty much everything I've used my satnav in has had  a speedo that reads almost exactly 5% fast, so I presume that's what the industry aims for.

 

John