Class 91s with Mk3s

[sub39h]

Hi there,

 

I recently learned that in the early days when the 91s had been built but the Mk4s weren't ready they used to haul Mk3 rakes with a Class 43 at the back as a surrogate DVT. To add a bit of variety to my rolling stock (and due to the fact that I've won a large amount of Mk3s off eBay) I was wanting to recreate such a train in addition to my regular 225 and 2 HST sets. 

 

What would a rake consist of when a 91 was pulling it? Would it be akin to a regular loco hauled service with a 43 instead of a DVT at the back? Would it be like the Mk4 rakes were? Or would it be like an ER HST with a TGS? 

 

TIA!

[Karhedron]

Not an expert but it looks like a normal ER HST rake with a 91 in place of one of the power cars.

 

http://www.traintesting.com/ic225_4.htm

[newbryford]

I think they were ER HST rakes with one power car removed, with the 91 providing the traction and the other HST power car being used as a surrogate DVT and power for the ETH (The 91 is a single phase ETS and the HST is three-phase). There were a few power cars fitted with buffers in the event that the 91 had to haul the set from the opposite end.. In reality, the Valentas in the HST's didn't take to idling for long periods, so they were modified to provide traction as well. As mentioned many times before, the combined 91/43 acceleration was outstanding.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[BR(S)]

Full consist (normal 8 car HST one) shown here:

 

 

Some pictures here:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/6044804543/

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alan1960/5588484348/

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alan1960/5588496802/

[Bomag]

In addition to the modified HST power car the TGS was fitted with conventional drawgear (buffers, hook and drophead buckeye) which meant the the ride in the TGS was lively going southbound. It was better, but not perfect, going northbound.

[sub39h]

Some brilliant information above, thanks! Was the 91 always at the north end of the train? If yes then did the set always run with a TGS? As that's what I'll be short of.

[uax6]

Some good info on the Paxman website about the hst engines... http://www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/paxrailt.htm#ic125

 

I'm sure somewhere I read about the class 91/SDVT combos and the reasons for them being used on power, but can't find it now!

 

Andy g

[deltic79]

As far as I remember the 91 was always at the north end. Unless there were operating issues where the 91 could be attached (blunt end first if it couldn't be turned) at the south end (as they can today).

 

There's some good footage here (

) at 1min 50sec which shows a rake entering Peterborough with a Mk1 generator coach bringing up the rear instead of a surrogate HST.

[steve fay]

The 91 MK3 generator combo would make an interesting model.

[mjkerr]

In addition to the modified HST power car the TGS was fitted with conventional drawgear (buffers, hook and drophead buckeye) which meant the the ride in the TGS was lively going southbound. It was better, but not perfect, going northbound.

Eight were converted in total, it was later realised the buffers were not required

 

Five TGS had the Guards end fitted with buffers, TDM jumpers, and drophead buckeye

The next converted had no buffers, standard HSTcoupling, and TDM jumpers

The final two converted also had no buffers, standard HST coupling, and one TDM jumper on one side only

These final three were also marked internally "Connect to Class 43 or 91 locomotive only - Call Control (on number) for authorisation to connect to any other locomotive type", and I always assumed it was due to the lack of buffers and drophead buckeye coupling (implying Class 90 locomotive or others planned for the future)

[Adam1701D]

I recall that IC started using the Mk3 sets with the HST power car idling just to provide train supply. The power units did not take well to prolonged periods of idling, which is why the decision was made to have them under power. The acceleration leaving Kings Cross was phenomenal!

[keefer]

IIRC having the valentas only idling led to a build-up of unburnt fuel in the exhausts, which would eventually catch fire

not only bad for the power cars but also for the brand-new OHLE!

[sub39h]

so from the above, i gather that there was always a TGS in the rake? 

 

thanks for the info people.

 

follow up question is regarding how to go about making a buffered HST power car. i'm using Lima power cars and carriages as they look better than even the newer Hornby ones. (and considering that the Hornby power car set is £100+ and carriages go for £40 each on eBay definitely better value-for money.) I know Hurst models do a conversion for the old "toy" Hornby power cars, but would this kit work on the Lima power car? i wouldn't have the skill required to scratch build something, but i can follow instructions on a kit.

 

also would it require repainting the entire loco to get the full yellow front end, or is there a better way of going about things?

 

thanks again

 

Edit: from doing a Google photo search I note not all of them had full yellow fronts, so i'll model one that doesn't require a paint change. 

[the penguin of doom]

When the 91's first arrived, I used to go to Doncaster as there was an early afternoon train to Leeds from London that was always hauled by a 91. It was always a good run up to Leeds with the 91 at the front and the HST power car ticking over at the rear.

 

I have some photo's somewhere and if I can find them, I'll post them.

 

Whilst not really a fan of the new fangled electrics, it was a changing time and this thread bought back some happy memories.

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I also remember a set of 5 or so mk3 sleepers used for tests in about 1988, with a 91 at one and and a HST DVT at the other. I saw it go through Grantham many times. This makes me suspect that the HST DVT and class 91 combo could be used with any air braked/buckeye coupler fitted coaches.

[phil-b259]

I also remember a set of 5 or so mk3 sleepers used for tests in about 1988, with a 91 at one and and a HST DVT at the other. I saw it go through Grantham many times. This makes me suspect that the HST DVT and class 91 combo could be used with any air braked/buckeye coupler fitted coaches.

Not quite. For the HST DVT to act as a DVT you need the coaches to be fitted with a through TDM cable (BR had found early on that trying to send loco control commands via the ETS system wasn't reliable and dedicated TDM wiring was required). Besides the only stock passed for 125mph operation was MK3s anyway.

[frobisher]

...via the ETS system...

Nope, it was the coach lighting circuit (via the RCH connectors) which was the original intention. There would be way more noise even than that on the ETS.

[Gwiwer]

91+Mk3+43 was super-power and as alraedy noted the HST cars were used as additional traction after the build-up of clag was spotted in idle-only mode.  There are some extremely fast runs logged with these trains especially on the "stoppers"  which have to brake and accelerate more often than those trains whihc skipped most stations south of Doncaster.   Early running and waiting time (or braking for red signals ahead) became the norm.  About the only thing which could touch them was 89001 on its normal commuter run to Peterborough.

[uax6]

The Generator vans are interesting. How many of them were made and what happened to them? I never knew about them, and presumed that the 91's always worked with SDVT's when coupled to Mk3's.

 

Andy G

[JeffP]

I never saw a working with the 91 at the south end, but they occasionally turned up running blunt end first.

[mjkerr]

The Generator vans are interesting. How many of them were made and what happened to them? I never knew about them, and presumed that the 91's always worked with SDVT's when coupled to Mk3's.

6310 was the only HST Generator Van

It was allocated to the Western Region, but during 1989 it was loaned to Bounds Green due to poor reliability of the HST Power Cars and the flexibility offered by the Class 91 locos

[RBE]

so from the above, i gather that there was always a TGS in the rake? 

 

thanks for the info people.

 

follow up question is regarding how to go about making a buffered HST power car. i'm using Lima power cars and carriages as they look better than even the newer Hornby ones. (and considering that the Hornby power car set is £100+ and carriages go for £40 each on eBay definitely better value-for money.) I know Hurst models do a conversion for the old "toy" Hornby power cars, but would this kit work on the Lima power car? i wouldn't have the skill required to scratch build something, but i can follow instructions on a kit.

 

also would it require repainting the entire loco to get the full yellow front end, or is there a better way of going about things?

 

thanks again

 

Edit: from doing a Google photo search I note not all of them had full yellow fronts, so i'll model one that doesn't require a paint change. 

 

The conversion is a simple one, I would assume the Hurst kit would work on the lima model as well as the old Hornby but never seen the kit so not sure what needs adjusting, so if that the way you want to go then there shouldn't be too many problems. As with any conversion/modification just take your time and work out what you are going to do at each step before wading in with sharp whizzy sctratchy breaky things. For the DVT its just a case of removing the bottom of the front valance and a thin lip above it to accept the new buffer beam. I did this conversion by scratchbuilding a new beam back when I was 15 (long time ago!!) so its not so hard. The paint job can be patch painted afterwards but will be easier on a swallow liveries loco as it would be better to paint the whole of the yellow rather than risking a mis-match of colour between the lower nose and the part surrounding the windows, the exec ones have a lot more yellow to worry about. Easier still choose one of the swallow ones that did not have the full yellow face applied and save yourself a job, there were a couple IIRC.

 

Cav

[Karhedron]

Easier still choose one of the swallow ones that did not have the full yellow face applied and save yourself a job, there were a couple IIRC.

There were indeed. One is shown below and there may have been others.

 

http://www.traintesting.com/images/Test train at unknown.jpg

 

http://www.traintesting.com/images/Test%20train%20at%20Craigentinny1.jpg

[RBE]

Yes 123 was one of the locos to be converted while still in executive intercity at which point it gained a full yellow end. I assume that by the time it gained swallow the powers that be decided that there was actually enough yellow still visible with a standard livery application.

 

All conjecture of course.

 

Cav

[Removed a/c]

Could you not do a repaint of the Grand Central Hornby HST ? or is it too far off the prototype?