For those interested in old cars.

[PatB]

The Deux Chevaux is the post-WW2 French idea of basic motoring and it doesn't pretend to be anything more than what it is - cheap to build and simple to maintain. It's got an engine, a wheel at each corner, and it can seat at least four. In this day and age of blandly aerodynamic design, its looks are even more distinctive in harking back to a less complicated era.

 

 

 

If you take the seats out entirely and everyone stands up (apart from the driver) you can get a dozen or more in for the trip home from the rural Welsh pub to the rented rural Welsh cottage. At 5 mph up some of the hills, admittedly .

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just to make Horsetan jealous look what Keith Adams has just acquired:

http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/blogs/blog-going-french-mais-oui/

 

Andy G

Reading further down that blog, two  fascinating Pininfarina cars based on BMC 1100 and 1800. If only we had had those instead of the Allegro and the wedge Princess.

[Horsetan]

Reading further down that blog, two  fascinating Pininfarina cars based on BMC 1100 and 1800. If only we had had those instead of the Allegro and the wedge Princess.

 

Yes, but like Harris Mann's original designs, there would still have been a chance of ruining the Pininfarina concepts because management might well have wanted to use existing engines and other unsuitable existing parts to save money, leading to changes in outline.

[BG John]

Reading further down that blog, two  fascinating Pininfarina cars based on BMC 1100 and 1800. If only we had had those instead of the Allegro and the wedge Princess.

I quite liked my Allegro. Fancy wheel trims, some black paint on the boot lid, some quite plush upholstery, and a 1750 engine, made it quite lively and comfortable. In a straight line!!

 

[28XX]

Snip!

 

It's quite difficult for us to imagine these days how backward much of rural France was in the 50s and 60s. The 2CV was perfect basic transport for the prevailing conditions. I prefer them to the 4L (my then partner had one) although Renault must have done something right as they built and sold 4 million of them, against only about 2 million 2CVs.

 

Snip!

My father is a Francophile and always has been. In the early '50's (when he was in his early 20's) he took his car to France with the intention of seeing how far south he could get. At the time, a particularly delicate and scary chapter in the Cold War was unfolding, and the original CND ban the bomb protests were taking place in England. He was driving down a long straight French road when he realized that he hadn't seen another car for a while. Through one deserted village. Then another. Still no signs of life. The thought seized him that perhaps nuclear Armageddon had begun, the French had all gone to shelter, and he was the only man out in the open!

[phil_sutters]

The Deux Chevaux is the post-WW2 French idea of basic motoring and it doesn't pretend to be anything more than what it is - cheap to build and simple to maintain. It's got an engine, a wheel at each corner, and it can seat at least four. In this day and age of blandly aerodynamic design, its looks are even more distinctive in harking back to a less complicated era.

 

Oddly enough, one of the reasons why it was eventually phased out was because its engine couldn't meet tighter emissions requirements and wasn't really designed for unleaded petrol.

 

 

Citroen designed their range to be "something for everyone", whether you were wealthy, or an executive with a family, or on a budget. Don't forget also the Dyane, the Ami 6 (the car with eyebrows and a C-pillar that looked like a plutocrat's luxury yacht), the GS/GSA, as well as the other classics.

Talking about cars with human characteristics, does anyone remember a children's book in which one of the main characters was Colonel Chuff - a 2CV with a big droopy moustache? I can find no reference to it when I search online. It was one of my favorite books when I was under 10, guess - so the mid-50s.

[PhilJ W]

The 2CV engine was intended to be a 2-stroke. This is why instead of 'one up, one down' the pistons are 'both up, both down'. Why it was decided to make it a 4-stroke I don't know.

[Horsetan]

The 2CV engine was intended to be a 2-stroke. This is why instead of 'one up, one down' the pistons are 'both up, both down'. Why it was decided to make it a 4-stroke I don't know.

Air-cooled, too.

[Danemouth]

Talking about cars with human characteristics, does anyone remember a children's book in which one of the main characters was Colonel Chuff - a 2CV with a big droopy moustache? I can find no reference to it when I search online. It was one of my favorite books when I was under 10, guess - so the mid-50s.

 

Do you mean Colonel Crock written by Annette Mills? :)

 

Dave

[30801]

The 2CV engine was intended to be a 2-stroke. This is why instead of 'one up, one down' the pistons are 'both up, both down'. Why it was decided to make it a 4-stroke I don't know.

 

That's the way you want it for four stroke. Here's an animation of Fiat's Twin Air which looks plain wrong until you think about the four stroke cycle.

 

[phil_sutters]

Do you mean Colonel Crock written by Annette Mills? :)

 

Dave

I am sure you are right and that would explain why I couldn't find any reference to it. I remember nothing about the story, but can picture the Colonel and know that it was a favorite bedtime story for quite a long time. Thanks for clearing up that bit of childhood memory.

[PhilJ W]

That's the way you want it for four stroke. Here's an animation of Fiat's Twin Air which looks plain wrong until you think about the four stroke cycle.

 

Actually most 4 stroke twins are like that. When you think about it it evens out the stress of combustion and gives a better balance to the engine. With a flat twin like the 2CV it is not so critical in fact the design of the engine makes it easier to balance with alternative cylinders firing as in a vertical twin but the penalty is a more complicated crankshaft arrangement. It was designed as a 2 stroke using crankcase compression hence the piston arrangement. With a 4 stroke engine better balance is achieved by having alternative cylinders firing, this is why radial aircraft engines have an odd number of cylinders.

[New Haven Neil]

Touch of disagree, many of Honda's twins have 180 degree cranks, all the multitude of the CB250/350/360 series for example.  They're smoother engines than the 360 degree arrangement, by experience, plus have a nicer exhaust note!

 

BMW's flat twins have the pistons opposed (both at TDC at the same time) and are very smooth for big twins as they have perfect primary balance, with a remaining rocking couple from the offset of the crankpins.  We've had 3....love tem.

[w124bob]

The 2CV engine also produces a spark to both plugs simultaneously which cuts down are on the points. Good job too considering their location directly on the end of the crank behind the fan.

[28XX]

My son had a new Mito in 2009. It mashed its gearbox six months out of warranty. A common fault we discovered. Luckily our local guy was able to rebuild it, but he lost confidence in the car and traded it in for a Golf (yawn).

[MJI]

The 2CV engine was intended to be a 2-stroke. This is why instead of 'one up, one down' the pistons are 'both up, both down'. Why it was decided to make it a 4-stroke I don't know.

 

Flat twin two stroke would not work too well, parallel twin is better.

 

Flat twin is best for 4 stroke

 

 

SOMETHING WNET WRONG

Edited March 10, 2017 by MJI

[MJI]

Actually most 4 stroke twins are like that. When you think about it it evens out the stress of combustion and gives a better balance to the engine. With a flat twin like the 2CV it is not so critical in fact the design of the engine makes it easier to balance with alternative cylinders firing as in a vertical twin but the penalty is a more complicated crankshaft arrangement. It was designed as a 2 stroke using crankcase compression hence the piston arrangement. With a 4 stroke engine better balance is achieved by having alternative cylinders firing, this is why radial aircraft engines have an odd number of cylinders.

 

I prefer 180 twins, my old TSCC Suzukis were like this. 360 twins are more like huge singles.

 

90 V twin is one of the most balanced

[Adams442T]

My son had a new Mito in 2009. It mashed its gearbox six months out of warranty. A common fault we discovered. Luckily our local guy was able to rebuild it, but he lost confidence in the car and traded it in for a Golf (yawn).

 

My Mito had a problem with the 'engine switch off', which is only supposed to operate when the gearbox is put into neutral at traffic lights.  It happened 4 times, one a really hairy near miss, when turning right and passing through neutral to engage the correct gear to pull away (having stopped at the turn, of course)  Alfa Romeo completely denied that they had heard of any such fault, ever.

 

We then went on holiday to Italy and hired an Alfa Guilietta, an excellent handling and beautiful car, except that it did exactly the same thing on several occasions!  

 

As soon as we returned from Italy we traded it in for a Mazda MX5!

[PhilJ W]

 

 

90 V twin is one of the most balanced

Balancing V engines is an art. A V8 or a V4 is better balanced at 90 degrees whereas a V6 is better balanced at 60 degrees. This is why the Ford V6's were so much better than the V4's which were basically the V6 less 2 cylinders.

[MJI]

Balancing V engines is an art. A V8 or a V4 is better balanced at 90 degrees whereas a V6 is better balanced at 60 degrees. This is why the Ford V6's were so much better than the V4's which were basically the V6 less 2 cylinders.

 

GM used to do a 56 degree V6, sounded nice

[The Blue Streak]

I prefer 180 twins, my old TSCC Suzukis were like this. 360 twins are more like huge singles.

 

90 V twin is one of the most balanced

 

Then of course there is Yamaha's TRX 850 which has a parallel Twin but with 270 degree crank and sound all the world like 90 degree Ducati's. In fact it's pretty much impossible to pick them apart just on sound when running similar pipes.

[MJI]

V4 is a strange engine. Flat OK, and inline OK but V seems to have no benefits over either. Apart from width reasons on bikes.

 

V6 is short, V8 is sensible

Then of course there is Yamaha's TRX 850 which has a parallel Twin but with 270 degree crank and sound all the world like 90 degree Ducati's. In fact it's pretty much impossible to pick them apart just on sound when running similar pipes.

 

 

Seems to be a new phenonema, a bit like the big bang engines.

[New Haven Neil]

Many of the new Triumph twins are 270 cranks now - gives a nice sound.  My T100 was pre- that, and sounded more like an older one as it was 360.

 

My nephew has a VW Corrado VR6, a narrow angle V6 - it sounds very nice indeed, and in fact sounds like it has rather more cylinders.  Goes OK too.........for a car!

[Joseph_Pestell]

This tecchie stuff about engine layouts is a bit beyond me. But my father, as a motorbike fan, was interested in it and always reckoned that more should be done with 3-cylinder engines. Having recently driven one of the new generation of small cars with a 3-cyl engine, I can see his point.

 

He was also a big two-stroke fan and always wanted one of  the old Saabs. That was ruled out by my mother on the grounds that the Saabs rolled in corners as badly as a 2CV. There are some great early 60s photos of Saabs rallying.

[Joseph_Pestell]

My Mito had a problem with the 'engine switch off', which is only supposed to operate when the gearbox is put into neutral at traffic lights.  It happened 4 times, one a really hairy near miss, when turning right and passing through neutral to engage the correct gear to pull away (having stopped at the turn, of course)  Alfa Romeo completely denied that they had heard of any such fault, ever.

 

We then went on holiday to Italy and hired an Alfa Guilietta, an excellent handling and beautiful car, except that it did exactly the same thing on several occasions!  

 

As soon as we returned from Italy we traded it in for a Mazda MX5!

Nobody ever bought an Italian car for the quality of its electrics.