Pre Grouping layouts

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Yes, I thought immediately of you. 

 

Hum. Sees a decrepit old wagon and thinks of me...

 

At the age of four, I was walked up Ben Lomond by my parents and my uncle and aunt. The way to get me up was to play trains, each member of the party being assigned a role. (Whoever was the banking engine had the hardest time, I'm sure.) My aunt was the last to be given a role - she eagerly asked what she was. "Oh Auntie C..., you can be the dirty old coal truck." She's never forgiven me.

[Edwardian]

38 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hum. Sees a decrepit old wagon and thinks of me...

 

 

 

Well, I did think that it was probably one of those that you mentioned the MR bought up en masse and that I should try to get a decent shot of it, but the horse kept getting in the way (even though there was a man telling it to move)!

 

 

So I had to use a drone shot

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

A wish fulfilled: Woodcroft (EM), Market Deeping MRC , at Shildon today:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

One of my first railway book loves were "The Grand Experiment" by Hylton and "Fire and Steam" Christian Wolmar. Recently reading "Red for Danger" (and it's long chronology prior to the 20th century), and now Tess of D'urbervilles, Middlemarch and Great Expectations has further stoked the flames for the change of the mid 19th century and early railways in general. Where before I found Mike Sharman's layouts to be a bit twee and chocolate box, I now relish the early railway eccentricity.

 

Recently there has been a layout set in the post NER-takeover of S&DR in Railway Modeller (whose name I've completely forgotten, sorry!) which leans towards this era. Ingleford Sidings elsewhere in RMweb also beats to this drum.

 

Though obviously the rolling stock will date a layout, I'm struggling to define what makes a layout look like an early pre-grouping railway: ballast over the sleepers, wagon turntables, odd track layouts, the use of dirt and gravel and a lack of urban encroachment?

Edited November 10, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

I'm struggling to define what makes a layout look like an early pre-grouping railway: 

 

Very much depends what you mean by early! From one perspective, the late 1840s were the first post-grouping period, following the amalgamations that created the Midland and the LNWR.

[Lacathedrale]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Very much depends what you mean by early! From one perspective, the late 1840s were the first post-grouping period, following the amalgamations that created the Midland and the LNWR.

 

I know we can split hairs indefinitely, but I am broadly talking about the period after the initial experiments i.e. 1845 to where the vast majority of the modern railway equipment and proceesses were in place i.e. 1885.

 

I appreciate this is a period with an increasing pace of change, but I think few people could date a layout accurately to 1850 vs 1870 so for our purposes I feel it is a sufficiently granular delineation.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[Compound2632]

Just now, Lacathedrale said:

I appreciate this is a period with an increasing pace of change, but I think few people could date a layout accurately to 1850 vs 1870 so for our purposes I feel it is a sufficiently granular delineation.

 

I'm not convinced. The railway of even 1870 would look a lot more familiar to our post-grouping-conditioned eyes than that of 1850. 

[Martin S-C]

On 08/10/2022 at 17:03, Edwardian said:

A wish fulfilled: Woodcroft (EM), Market Deeping MRC , at Shildon today:

 

 

 

 

Its incredible to think that Woodcroft was very seriously damaged at the break-in on Friday night of the Market Deeping show back in 2019. The team have done a fantastic job of restoring it.

[Edwardian]

32 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Its incredible to think that Woodcroft was very seriously damaged at the break-in on Friday night of the Market Deeping show back in 2019. The team have done a fantastic job of restoring it.

 

Indeed, though they were very fortunate that none of the stock was on the layout at the time. 

[burgundy]

10 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Though obviously the rolling stock will date a layout, I'm struggling to define what makes a layout look like an early pre-grouping railway: ballast over the sleepers, wagon turntables, odd track layouts, the use of dirt and gravel and a lack of urban encroachment?

I suggest that signalling - or lack of it - might be one of the clearest discriminators. The 1870s is an interesting decade as it marks the point at which signalling began to follow recognisable principles. It is also the decade in which automatic brakes began to appear on passenger vehicles. Combining the two would allow trains to run more quickly - in relative safety.

Best wishes 

Eric 

[sir douglas]

1870 is a big turning point stock wise as well with the introduction of bogie carriages (the first being on the Ffestiniog) and the size of locos going up to 4 axles such as 4-4-0's and 4-2-2's instead of 2-4-0's and 2-2-2's, i would like to one day do a terminus layout set just before this with 4 or 6 wheel carriages with single drivers like the Jenny Lind

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

1870 is a big turning point stock wise as well with the introduction of bogie carriages (the first being on the Ffestiniog) 

 

The first standard gauge ones being on the Midland - the Pullmans of 1874, rapidly followed by more conventional stock, including the 54 ft 12-wheelers of 1875/6.

[DCB]

32 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

1870 is a big turning point stock wise as well with the introduction of bogie carriages (the first being on the Ffestiniog) and the size of locos going up to 4 axles such as 4-4-0's and 4-2-2's instead of 2-4-0's and 2-2-2's, i would like to one day do a terminus layout set just before this with 4 or 6 wheel carriages with single drivers like the Jenny Lind

 

Only the most prestigious trains would have had 8 or 12 wheelers before 1880, there seem to have  been large numbers of 6 wheelers right up until 1923 on some railways, SECR etc, I wonder if fitting continuous brakes caused rigid frame stock to be preferred to bogies in the late 19th century. 

Likewise only the most prestigious trains would have had the big 4-2-2s and 4-4-0s, except when things went wrong and an express 4-4-0 was turned out for a Local (See Tay Bridge)   In 1880 the majority of stock would have been pre 1874 and your typical branch would likely have A)  Not been built yet   or   B) operated by pre 1870 stock, pre 1860 even.  Lots of evidence of 0-6-0s being used for fast passenger stuff, and of small 2-2-2s and the like hauling very long but very light trains.  It's an interesting era but difficult to model as even the oldest and most boring visitors to shows are unlikely to be old enough to have known Dan Gooch or even Frank Webb personally leaving us to rely on accident reports for reliable info.  It seems to me the corridor stock and connections between coaches was the  tipping point, suddenly you had at most 8 per compartment instead of 12 so needed  50% more compartments for the same passengers, add dining cars and that's 100%, while fitted freight was also the big thing, of the 1899/1900 era leaving the old 1880 loco designs floundering in a lack of steam.   

[Edwardian]

A salutary reminder that the period scene is often not best represented by the latest developments on the busiest lines of the biggest companies on their most prestigious services. GNR Atlantics and their giant 12-wheel ECJS clerestories, for instance, are not representative of much of the GN's workings, let alone of most railway companies at the turn of the century.

 

If I had to choose one object to represent the pre-Grouping scene, say 1880s-1900s, it would be the humble company-built general merchandise 5-plank wagon, and, of these, I think we'd need to choose the MR D299! 

[Northroader]

Who have you been talking to?

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

If I had to choose one object to represent the pre-Grouping scene, say 1880s-1900s, it would be the humble company-built general merchandise 5-plank wagon, and, of these, I think we'd need to choose the MR D299! 

 

But only one?

[ChrisN]

On 11/11/2022 at 07:34, Edwardian said:

A salutary reminder that the period scene is often not best represented by the latest developments on the busiest lines of the biggest companies on their most prestigious services. GNR Atlantics and their giant 12-wheel ECJS clerestories, for instance, are not representative of much of the GN's workings, let alone of most railway companies at the turn of the century.

 

If I had to choose one object to represent the pre-Grouping scene, say 1880s-1900s, it would be the humble company-built general merchandise 5-plank wagon, and, of these, I think we'd need to choose the MR D299! 

 

But not on the Cambrian!  

[ianmaccormac]

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, ianmaccormac said:

A lovely video about a lovely layout, in January 2023 BRM. Cheers, Ian

 

D299 noted! Also, I think, an Midland ex-Private Owner wagon. Hayling Island must have yielded a substantial horde of wagon labels, since the Midland Railway Study Centre has ten, mostly for traffic from collieries in the Midlands:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC item 14456.]

Edited November 25, 2022 by Compound2632

[CKPR]

Going back to Mike Sharman's 19th century models and layouts, didn't he once say that he wasn't interested in modelling any engine that had a cab ?!

[Edwardian]

Beautiful and clearly well researched, I am smitten by this layout.

 

Having considered Hayling as a subject (in 4mil) and read-up accordingly, I think the creator of this layout has gone for just the right period, the sweet spot either side of 1890 that allows both charismatic oddities like Bishopstone and Hayling with Craven stock and Terriers with short Stroudley sets. Clearly, though, he has researched this deeply.

 

I noticed towards the end of the first video that Rule No.1 applies to lift the weight restriction on the bridge, but I often think that, once one has recreated the correct stock for a prototype, it doesn't hurt to run some of your other stock unofficially, as it were.

[Phil Parker]

The Hayling Island video is part of the digital BRM package for subscribers, so I've removed it from public view. I'll leave the cab ride though.

 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

The Hayling Island video is part of the digital BRM package for subscribers, so I've removed it from public view. I'll leave the cab ride though.

 

Once seen, never forgotten.

[Phil Parker]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Once seen, never forgotten.

 

Absolutely. Which is why you should buy the January issue of BRM!

 

This is a seriously nice layout, and the owner has friends with rather tasty models too, which we will be visiting in the future. And he'll be at Ally Pally with his S gauge layout too, which is also due an appearance in BRM. If you don't have a sub, you really need to get one.

[MarcD]

Here is a few photos of my Pre-Grouping layout WC Boggs.

Marc