Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Mornin' all, Given the number of defective Western and class 22 models reaching customers, why isn't every class 22 and 52 tested for the known problems before it is mailed to the customer? The unfortunate customers are having to put up with 'unfit for purpose' models and the cost of posting them back to the source. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katier Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 The postage return costs should, I believe, legally by covered by the vendor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted August 1, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 1, 2013 It's down to cost. People want the latest greatest model for the same price that the previous model was 10 years ago. Many box shifters keep prices down by not testing, having the facilities to test or the time for staff to test. Most modellers will always go for the cheapest place to buy rather than a location that will test a model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointstaken Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 You want cheap goods ? You want goods tested ? Fine, you're the customer so you do the quality control ! That's been the norm in the PC motherboard industry for years. I'm not justifying the practice, merely pointing it out. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 It's down to cost. People want the latest greatest model for the same price that the previous model was 10 years ago. Many box shifters keep prices down by not testing, having the facilities to test or the time for staff to test. Most modellers will always go for the cheapest place to buy rather than a location that will test a model. Agreed. My local model shop will let you handle, test etc (he has a short powered stub track in 2mm, 4mm and 7mm) but the downside is you'll pay at least 25% more. Hattons etc shift in volume. They will take the items into stock and ship onwards without the item ever having gone on display or even out of the warehouse. I'm guilty of using the big box shifters. A saving of 30% or so on a single item equals half a tank of diesel. Money matters. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cctransuk Posted August 1, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 1, 2013 Mornin' all, Given the number of defective Western and class 22 models reaching customers ... Dave Can you quantify that statement? What about the silent majority? We have heard from a number of members who have had problems, most of which have been resolved via Dapol's established repair arrangements. How many models have been sold in total, compared to the number of defective ones? I for one have D1000 and D6236 am more than happy with them - and yes, they are run. I had no intention of adding to this controversy, but cannot continue to read what seems to be an anti-Dapol campaign without giving the other side of the coin. I think that you have already stated that you won't be buying any more Dapol models - fine, leave it at that! Regards, John Isherwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted August 1, 2013 Author Share Posted August 1, 2013 John, ...you clearly haven't done your homework. I have 3 22s and 3 52s...all of which have had problems and I still haven't abandoned Dapol. Each modeller that I know who has them has had similar problems with a total of over 20 locos. I then read of the issues on this site and others. The tally of defective locos which I have personal experience of is, at the moment, over 75%. I am not anti-Dapol but pro-having 'fit for purpose' models delivered once I've spent good money on them. Maybe you're in a position to waste money? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Godfrey Glyn Posted August 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2013 Dave, you have obviously been very unlucky. I have three Westerns and four 22s and have had no problems whatsoever with any of them. We are talking about very small samples, neither sample demonstrates that there is a problem with Dapol's Westerns or 22s. One could only make that assumption if you had data on a far larger number of samples. I am afraid I agree with John Isherwood, send them back if your not happy with them. Godfrey Glyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted August 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2013 Mornin' all, Given the number of defective Western and class 22 models reaching customers, why isn't every class 22 and 52 tested for the known problems before it is mailed to the customer? The unfortunate customers are having to put up with 'unfit for purpose' models and the cost of posting them back to the source. Dave Hereford Model Centre include a 'tested by' slip with each model sent. In my my experience they are unique in mail order retailers. My personal experience with Dapol OO ? Six purchased....one defective 22 ( after a week's use )....repaired by Alex ( Lochnagar ).....one smoking ,non-working lights, 52......returned for replacement. Yes...I do think the point has been made but given the remoteness of manufacture,problems difficult to resolve ATM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted August 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2013 Dave I've stated on here before that I've had problems with all three of my Kernow Dapol Westerns (body fixing screws and wobbly wheels), and one of my two standard BR blue models. I've yet to chip and deal with my D1000 model. I have yet to have any problems with my 5 Dapol 22s, but admittedly they haven't been run a great deal. Unfortunately we have no real measure of the scale of the problem, relying on personal anecdotes- the only people that know for sure will be Dapol, but for sure they will be looking at the stub axles and body fixing screws in future releases (said in hope). If they nail these two issues I'd buy more of their models for sure. They are superb renditions of the prototype, and with some small tweaks can be made even better. NotDapolDave has stated earlier to you that its not helpful to Dapol for customers not to return defective models and report faults - I agree to an extent but its clear to me from personal experiences that the fixing screws and wheels need attention at the factory, regardless of what returns they get. And finally no, this is not another swipe at Dapol - I admire their development programme, invested heavily in their products (as a WR hydraulic era modeller) and want them to get some problems sorted so that their models are even better. If we don't give them feedback nothing will change for sure. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodshaw Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Whatever the business, unless it's incompetent, how much quality control is done is a hard-headed financial decision. A company may decide to limit quality control in order to sell more cheaply, knowing that they will get a certain number of returns under their no-quibble money-back guarantee, or the distance selling regulations. It may well be that this post-sales hassle is cheaper for them than doing more quality control. They will also be aware that a certain number of people won't complain and will fix the problem themselves, or live with it. It's all thrashed out by marketing men and accountants in their monthly meetings. If it isn't, then the business probably won't last long. It's all part and parcel of living in this profit-based society, it's full of little skirmishes. Businesses are always trying to maximise profits and minimise costs. They may respond to 'consumer feedback' but, again, whether they do anything about it will come down to profits and costs, and what they think 'the market' will stand. The real worry is not with model trains, but with shoddy construction or poor maintenance of the real thing, or buildings, or something else of real importance that endangers life when it goes pear-shaped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pirouets Posted August 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2013 My question, is this a general shot at all retailers, or a couple of the huge ones who run warehouse sized operations? I ask that as personally I have only had 1 defective loco from Dapol and no failures of my Farish stuff. I will caveat that I cannot remember if I had issues when I used to model steam rather than diesels. Picking on Hattons as an example, if you placed an order by phone can you ask for it to be tested in advance given what we think we know, or add a comment to the order placed via the web? On the flip side, are the problems any worse that in the past when mechanisms used to be worse. Farish I believe used to have a big split gear problem in life for diesels so you bought wondering when it might fail. So whilst I think I agree with the question of should retailers do more, is there a second question that says we the consumer if we know something can also do more to prevent the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Over the years, I've bought a diesel loco with warped bogies that I straightened out, a co-co diesel with too tight bogie pivots and needing the centre driven axles slightly raising, a pacific where the front bogie dropped off, another pacific where part of the valve gear disintegrated half way round the track, a diesel where the front and rear lights were connected the wrong way round, another where a bogie pivot broke (which was though partly my fault) and a large tank engine where the chimney fell off. None of these were Dapol. All mail order. None of these faults (except perhaps the chimney) would have been apparent on a quick test run up and down a length of straight track. I still have all these locos and they now work perfectly after a bit of work (some I'd bought cheap to modify/repaint anyway). Locos from local shop always test run but have been known to develop faults later - but always good service to replace them so worth extra perhaps. Don't get me started on the faults with my car and how long it took to get them sorted..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeharvey22 Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Moral of the story spend a bit more and buy it in your local Model Shop, ask for it to be tested under your nose if it works eveyone is happy I think that is the right solution. I can see the case where what is OK for the retailer fails to pass a more stringent set of standards envisaged by the buyer. Plenty of examples of this around RMWeb. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I have but one Dapol loco in recent times, A Western, That was faulty,...., wobbled, missing windscreen wiper and unattached cab 'glass', it was retruned to the retailer and he refunded my initial purchase cost including shipping to me AND my return postal cost without being asked. I dont have a local Model Shop, so everything is mail order, with which I am 99.99% satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jbqfc Posted August 1, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 1, 2013 Moral of the story spend a bit more and buy it in your local Model Shop, ask for it to be tested under your nose if it works eveyone is happy but I don't have local model shop nearest one is about 20 miles away I don't drive and the bus cost a fortune on locos bought maybe I am lucky but apart form a Dapol 156 that did not work and farish split gears I have had no trouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Rails of Sheffield e-bay auction site says that items are tested before being put up for sale. Everything I've bought via them has worked perfectly. So oddly, second hand has been better than some of my buying new experiences. But overall, the great majority of model railway locos I've bought, nearly all of them, work fine. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verityboo Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Considering the number of repaired models Bachmann sell on their exhibition stand several times a year at the bigger shows I don't think it is just Dapol who send out faulty products By making it a purely Dapol bashing thread I think the Op makes themselves look a bit petty when a more general discussion about all manufacturers would have been more constructive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted August 1, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 1, 2013 When is a problem not a problem? Some of us consider an over-tightened fixing screw to be a problem. Others don't mind and it may not bother the min the slightest. That much doesn't make a model unfit for purpose to use the OP term. There have been a few cases of wonky wheels and a very few cases of other more obvious problems such as non-runners but do these probably small numbers make a production run unfit for purpose? I can empathise with those who have waited perhaps years for a model only to receive one which doesn't meet their expectations. I am on record elsewhere on this site as saying that my Westerns have a very faint - barely detectable - waddle to one end and that two had a single over-tight fixing screw. I currently have four 22s, three 52s and two more on their way. All are fine by me. I have removed the offending screws quite easily without damage to any part of the loco and the waddling gait is no more noticeable than the average "rock and roll" of model trains over model track. A problem for one of us is not a problem for another. A problem which renders one loco ora few of the batch unusable does not of itself make the entire run unfit for purpose. It should be the manufacturer who takes responsibility for quality control and not a retailer who only acts as an agent and is usually the poor piggy-in-the-middle when things go awry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted August 1, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 1, 2013 Hereford Model Centre tests models before despatch. Not sure if they are Dapol stockists though. I use them for anything Hornby as I hate reviving defective goods and this saves all hassle of organising returns etc. really shouldn't have to put up with tis, but onus should be on manufacturer to get it right, the poor old retailer just had to deal with the fall out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Don't forget that there are numbers of collectors who only run their models rarely (if at all), and would be unlikely to even notice that a screw was over-tightened. However, they would probably be very upset if the 'integrity' of the packaging was disturbed, and have an apolectic fit if someone had run the model to test it... Perhaps what is needed is some sort of 'opt-out', where the customer can specify if they would like the model tested or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted August 1, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 1, 2013 I have 3x22s that have never missed a beat. I do wish people would not make such rash statements unless they can be qualified. If one is not satisfied send it back, you have a full right to a refund or replacement. It is unfortunate if you get a bad loco, however instead of running straight to social media get the problem sorted then perhaps discuss it. RMweb is a good site which has some very helpful contributors, however it does not want to earn a reputation for whingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted August 1, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2013 Simple answer to this "problem" (if it is indeed such a problem) is to go to a shop and see for one's self before buying the product Not too easy for limited editions e.g. Kernow - lovely models as they are. Easyish for me but Kernow a long way from Scotland and the antipodes. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Mornin' all, Given the number of defective Western and class 22 models reaching customers, why isn't every class 22 and 52 tested for the known problems before it is mailed to the customer? The unfortunate customers are having to put up with 'unfit for purpose' models and the cost of posting them back to the source. Dave Some retailers do test them, others (generally at the high volume/discounter end of the market) don't... Simple answer is it is your choice to use a retailer who doesn't test the products before dispatch: you can get the service you desire but have to accept it may cost a little more. Perhaps you should consider the cost in time and hassle of returning an item in calculating which retailer gives the best value for money? While you mention two specific products, I dont think this is a manufacturer specific issue - You choose the retailer you use, not the manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I wonder if "Torr Giffard" will be taking over the job vacated by "NotDapolDave"..... Things would be highly interesting if he did.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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