Where are the Hornby models?

[Coach bogie]

In an idle moment I counted the items for 00 steam in Hattons listing in the current BRM.  The score was Bachmann 54, Hornby 10.  If that reflects the position at other stockists then Hornby have a cash-flow problem.

 

Mike

Or conversely, it is Bachmann who have the cashflow problem as they have over five times more unsold stock than Hornby.

 

Not really enough information to determine cash flow. In addition Hornby have many other diverse product ranges/markets to prop up the model railways such as Airfix, Corgi, Scalextric etc whereas Bachmann run the, far riskier, only one market.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[andytrains]

It is inconceivable that any thinking person would admit to a connection with an organisation called Pufferwillies. Where did they get such a name from?

They state is their gumph, "PUFFERWILLIES is now in partnership with local model shop SHEFFIELD TRANSPORT MODELS who have been in the model industry for over 28 years". Personally I had never heard of them.

[micklner]

Puffer Willy wasnt he involved with Mickey Mouse

[andyman7]

In an idle moment I counted the items for 00 steam in Hattons listing in the current BRM.  The score was Bachmann 54, Hornby 10.  If that reflects the position at other stockists then Hornby have a cash-flow problem.

 

Mike

The other thing is that Hornby.com and their concessions have better stocks - and due to lack of availability at discounters I am sure these sellers are seeing more traffic. Hattons being out of stock does not mean the item is unavailable, as a quick google often reveals 

[APOLLO]

Hence Hattons have recently started to sell secondhand "like new" stock, as well as "weathered by Hattons" s/h locos. Look at Hornby steam locos on Hattons site.

 

http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/1000389/1000588/1000640/0/Hornby_OO_Gauge_1_76_Scale_Steam_locos/prodlist.aspx

 

Looks to be a sea change in "marketing methods" in our hobby compounded / caused by shortage of stock. Prices are going sky high also, though Hattons have some excellent bargains at the moment. I wonder what will be the position this time next year ?.

 

Get the bargains while you can, when there gone that's it, as I see it.

 

Brit15

[robmcg]

One wonders what proportion of Hornby revenue has historically been UK outline model railways and how this compares to their projected income for the next few months, with Euro brands mentioned in the recent 2013 interim report as important.  Also they say they are focussed on supply issues and we all hope this is not being exacerbated pre-Christmas by such as containers being lost at sea!

[robmcg]

Good point about the second hand market, many have noticed Hattons and Rails adding s/h to new stock in their listings.

 

My feeling is that quality control is so 'average' for want of a better word with recent Hornby top-end RTR  such as 42/52/72XX and Star that anything which looks new and passes basic fit-for-purpose tests, together with standard consumer law backup, will be as good as it gets at prices either side of and close to £100, from a reputable VAT-registered dealer.  Mind you, I have bought new Bachmann and Hornby models from the mid 2000s which were far from perfect.

 

I think the pinnacle of value for money might have been around 2010, with Hattons and other selling new B17 4-6-0s for around £87. There were even better things on special from time to time, in 2008 A3 St Gatien was £49 for a time, ...   ah, those were the days

[coachmann]

My 'local' still had some on the shelf ysterday, though I didn't see any 3-packs.

Three packs available in pub toilets. Probably LB&SC Balloon stock...

[hallmodelspares]

the main problem for Hornby is the units of sanda kann have dried up production most of these units Bachmann now own a large number

 

i understand Hornby have had new units seperate now from the Bachmann products as rumors have been circulated about Bachmann 'copying' Hornby track the same as the your model railway partwork turned up with lengths of steel in lengths similar to old lima track for ho and 00

[Mike Storey]

.

 

No where near.

 

HS1 was "built" in one half and 2 quarters - and originally intended (never promised) to be ready for the millenium.

 

The First "half" was the half-hearted adaptation of the third rail system in Kent to send Euro Star trains to Waterloo.  Late and over budget.

 

The second was "CTRL" ( Channel Tunnel Rail Link ) which was in two parts.  "Section 1" :- Folkestone to (basically ) M 25 and "Section 2" complete through to St Pancras.

 

"Secion 1" was so late and over budget that "Section 2" was suspended and the government refused to fund it.  After discussions/negotiations/whatever there was a private venture finance deal with an elongated progamme and almost doubled budget.

 

It is fair to say that "Section 2" achieved the revised programme and JUST within the revised budget  -  it is certainly NOT fair to say that the final costs and budget were anywhere near the original figures.

 

There is a vast majority (of realists/cynics) in construction who believe that since the late 90s almost all announced budgets and programmes have been so inflated that it is difficult to fail to achieve them, but CTRL managed it.  ( Likewise the budget for the Olympics swallowed its original budget and get perillously near its revised one. )

 

.

 

I don't argue with the general drift of your message, but it should be understood that the primary cause of the delays in both conversion of the classic lines and in completion of Section 1 of CTRL, was the delay on power upgrades from the national grid (plus some late changes to specs., which are the bane of any construction project.

 

Incidentally, you are wrong about the Olympics construction budget, which by the way was completed exactly to deadline, one year ahead of the games. Of interest here was the transport construction budget, which was budgeted at £900m, including contingency, soon after the winning bid was announced. It completed the original spec at £150m below that, but extras were added due to increased Govt. security requirements, which bumped it up to over £800m. Overall, extra security caused over £500m extra spend, without which the total spend would have been well below the revised budget (which had been set, remember, some five years earlier, albeit greater than the sum postulated before the bid was won).

[frobisher]

... rumors have been circulated about Bachmann 'copying' Hornby track...

The set track thet Bachmann UK produce IS the former Hornby set track. As I understand it, before production was shifted to China, Hornby sourced track from Roco in Austria. Hornby did not own the tooling, Roco did. When production shifted to China, Hornby had new tooling made for the track, and the existing tooling remained with Roco. Bachmann now source their set track from Roco, who have changed the branding on the bottom to read Bachmann and the R numbers remain the same. All above board and legal, no shenanigans, and it would be natural that they would want track conforming to the same geometry as the leading brand of sectional track in the UK.

[phil gollin]

I don't argue with the general drift of your message, but it should be understood that the primary cause of the delays in both conversion of the classic lines and in completion of Section 1 of CTRL, was the delay on power upgrades from the national grid (plus some late changes to specs., which are the bane of any construction project.

 

Incidentally, you are wrong about the Olympics construction budget, which by the way was completed exactly to deadline, one year ahead of the games. Of interest here was the transport construction budget, which was budgeted at £900m, including contingency, soon after the winning bid was announced. It completed the original spec at £150m below that, but extras were added due to increased Govt. security requirements, which bumped it up to over £800m. Overall, extra security caused over £500m extra spend, without which the total spend would have been well below the revised budget (which had been set, remember, some five years earlier, albeit greater than the sum postulated before the bid was won).

.

 

No.  CTRL was a disaster ( I was there for 6 years - with an 8 month gap for the "suspension" ),  It was hilarious working on Section 1 as Section 2 costs and programme kept getting worse  -  until of course the "suspension".

 

I never critisied the Olympics programme, but the budget was fiddled with.  It is, unfortunately, a sign of "our" politicians that they seamlessly (and invisibly) mislead about the various budgets and schedules and call all the versions "the" despite the truth.

 

.

[Ian Hargrave]

They state is their gumph, "PUFFERWILLIES is now in partnership with local model shop SHEFFIELD TRANSPORT MODELS who have been in the model industry for over 28 years". Personally I had never heard of them.

They have been trading on e-bay for quite some time.

[6959]

Hornby Com has following Grange not in current catalogue, but no stock yet.

 

Hornby R3209 68xx Bucklebury Grange WR 1957 lined green 4000gal. Concessions Special

 

[mow]

Visited Bath today, dropped in at Hawkins Bazzar, all the Hornby models I saw were from the Railroad (low margin?) range - larger engines 9F Tornado, Schools Class. Train sets Jinty and Post Office Vans, Saddle tank and freight & an odd industrial loco, some reductions on train sets.  Scalextric appeared to be blackened windows car sets. 

[darren01]

Visited Bath today, dropped in at Hawkins Bazzar, all the Hornby models I saw were from the Railroad (low margin?) range - larger engines 9F Tornado, Schools Class. Train sets Jinty and Post Office Vans, Saddle tank and freight & an odd industrial loco, some reductions on train sets.  Scalextric appeared to be blackened windows car sets. 

Hi

Where at full RRP other than the train-sets?

[robmcg]

In an impatient response to the lack of new models from Hornby, I have taken advantage of the selling of pre-owned models by at least two major box-shifters, and bought what I think represent damn good value; a Britannia 70010 'Owen Glendower' and a Black 5 45190 BR lined black both recent Hornby models.

 

Both are DCC fitted, detailed and weathered (photos show identical new models, sorry, as didn't copy pics before purchase of the rather nice weathering, steps, steam pipes, brakerods, etc., will show them off after they reach me, no doubt.) 

 

Many of the Black 5s I've seen over the last 10 years are imperfect in many ways with regard to detail and straightness-of-running plate at front, but R2904 45190 looks good, correct boiler, with steam sand-pipe shape too, and the Britannia R2835X 70010 has these details too, Hattons' photos of the pre-owned models showed the exact model so I had a good idea about what I was buying, both sides valve gear correct offset and other little things which matter to me were 'right'. For what it's worth I paid over £130 for each. I think when these models are mint and weathered well they are worth it.

 

How sad for Hornby that bulk production of these models has become so hard.

 

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

One wonders what proportion of Hornby revenue has historically been UK outline model railways and how this compares to their projected income for the next few months, with Euro brands mentioned in the recent 2013 interim report as important.  Also they say they are focussed on supply issues and we all hope this is not being exacerbated pre-Christmas by such as containers being lost at sea!

 

By revenue year ended March 2013 it was 39% of the total, year ended March 2012 it was 48% of the total (presumably also includes sales outside the UK).  For the period ended 30 September 2013 it was 39% of revenue and it was the same percentage for the similar period (presumably since end March) in 2012.  Which perhaps shows how important year end sales were in year ended March 2012?

 

But be careful as these are percentages and do not show the actual sales revenue in £s

[6959]

 

In an impatient response to the lack of new models from Hornby, I have taken advantage of the selling of pre-owned models by at least two major box-shifters, and bought what I think represent damn good value; a Britannia 70010 'Owen Glendower' and a Black 5 45190 BR lined black both recent Hornby models.

 

Both are DCC fitted, detailed and weathered (photos show identical new models, sorry, as didn't copy pics before purchase of the rather nice weathering, steps, steam pipes, brakerods, etc., will show them off after they reach me, no doubt.) 

 

Many of the Black 5s I've seen over the last 10 years are imperfect in many ways with regard to detail and straightness-of-running plate at front, but R2904 45190 looks good, correct boiler, with steam sand-pipe shape too, and the Britannia R2835X 70010 has these details too, Hattons' photos of the pre-owned models showed the exact model so I had a good idea about what I was buying, both sides valve gear correct offset and other little things which matter to me were 'right'. For what it's worth I paid over £130 for each. I think when these models are mint and weathered well they are worth it.

 

How sad for Hornby that bulk production of these models has become so hard.

 

R2835X_R2904_1a_r800.jpg

 

Rob

 

 

Regarding the picture of R2904 - 'Black 5' - 45190. I have the other two versions in early BR black (a/ second type boiler, and b/ BR type with longer wheelbase)and would like one with the domeless boiler to change the later tender/ top for an early lion. The only other one of these with domeless boiler in lined BR was R2555 numbered 45156 but I was put off because it was a Scottish -based engine (too far north). Was 45190 Scottish based as well?

[Mike Storey]

.

 

No.  CTRL was a disaster ( I was there for 6 years - with an 8 month gap for the "suspension" ),  It was hilarious working on Section 1 as Section 2 costs and programme kept getting worse  -  until of course the "suspension".

 

I never critisied the Olympics programme, but the budget was fiddled with.  It is, unfortunately, a sign of "our" politicians that they seamlessly (and invisibly) mislead about the various budgets and schedules and call all the versions "the" despite the truth.

 

.

 

I am not sure what "disaster" you refer to on CTRL, but I accept it was prolonged, and we understood that a big part of that was the power supply problem, but I take your word for other issues (I was not in that team). The classic lines conversion was going well (and I was closely involved with that) until the power gap became evident, which was completely outside our control.

 

Politicians can only spout what they are told by "experts" and there most definitely was an under-estimation by Sport England over what it would take to host the Games overall - their original costings did not include transport, security or any of the venues away from the main Olympic Park. However, the transport budget element was not "new" money, but a collection of schemes that were planned anyway, but over a longer timescale. The huge benefit of the Games to transport is that these schemes went ahead when they were needed and not years beyond, not just for the Games, but for background demand. Just look at the London Overground, which was so successful, even before the Games, that further upgrades and expansion were being planned and funded even before the Games started. The follow on electrification of Gospel Oak to Barking, which we had wanted for Games Time, was refused on the grounds of budget, but, along with all the other works, was strategically vital, in this case for freight diversions away from the North London Line, as it has now turned out, so that funding has now been agreed.

 

Rail projects planning and execution has moved on a long way from the 1990's in the UK, which cannot be said for many of our European counterparts, so please don't knock it too hard. It is certainly in a more fit state to deliver something like HS2 now, and to be frank about the viability of the timescales, disruption and costs of alternative multiple, fettling schemes.

[robmcg]

   

 

Regarding the picture of R2904 - 'Black 5' - 45190. I have the other two versions in early BR black (a/ second type boiler, and b/ BR type with longer wheelbase)and would like one with the domeless boiler to change the later tender/ top for an early lion. The only other one of these with domeless boiler in lined BR was R2555 numbered 45156 but I was put off because it was a Scottish -based engine (too far north). Was 45190 Scottish based as well?

 

45190 was mostly Shrewsbury in BR days to 1964, then Annesley, but ended up in 1966 in Kirby or Nottingham, then Heaton Mersey, I think (Modelmaster shed guide).

 

There were many boiler swaps to and from domeless and you would need the Black 5 books from Irwell, 'The Book of the Black 5' P2 45075-45224 for details.

 

45156 was indeed St Rollox from 1943 to 57 but then Newton Heath till 62 then Edge Hill and Patricroft. In 1957 at Newton Heath it still had the early crest.

 

Pat Hammond's Ramsay's catalogue gives all the Hornby versions, domeless, forward feed, and so on, early/late crest, 24 BR versions since 2002, and you are right, not many domeless with BR crest, several LMS versions are around though maybe if you just want the boiler?

[robmcg]

Further to the question, 'where are the Hornby models', it seems a long time since many of the better models were freely available from that august company, and the picture I cobbled together just now (also in large green powerful thread) includes a few Hornby BR red-cream Staniers, one of the first to become 'hard-to-get' from memory...  it was the first time I was aware that these carriages might never be easy to buy, as the few which were advertised were quickly replaced by 'out of stock' notices. Expensive, too, and rarely if ever sold at reduced prices like Maunsells, Hawksworths, and Gresleys. I might be wrong of course, often am.

 

So this pic is entirely Hornby, even the signal box and signals, lineside hut too...   1951 the year of the great London fog, was it called 'smog' back then?  46252 'City of Leicester' is seven years old and grubbier than some of her class perhaps.

 

The picture also reminds me of the 1948-on Hornby Dublo Duchess class EDL2 maroon 'Duchess of Atholl' and 1953-on EDL12  BR green 'Duchess of Montrose' together with the red-cream Staniers which had flush glazed effect sides and graced many a front room floor including that of my own 'growing up' in the 50s.

 

[leavesontheline]

In an impatient response to the lack of new models from Hornby, I have taken advantage of the selling of pre-owned models by at least two major box-shifters, and bought what I think represent damn good value; a Britannia 70010 'Owen Glendower' and a Black 5 45190 BR lined black both recent Hornby models.

 

Both are DCC fitted, detailed and weathered (photos show identical new models, sorry, as didn't copy pics before purchase of the rather nice weathering, steps, steam pipes, brakerods, etc., will show them off after they reach me, no doubt.) 

 

Many of the Black 5s I've seen over the last 10 years are imperfect in many ways with regard to detail and straightness-of-running plate at front, but R2904 45190 looks good, correct boiler, with steam sand-pipe shape too, and the Britannia R2835X 70010 has these details too, Hattons' photos of the pre-owned models showed the exact model so I had a good idea about what I was buying, both sides valve gear correct offset and other little things which matter to me were 'right'. For what it's worth I paid over £130 for each. I think when these models are mint and weathered well they are worth it.

 

How sad for Hornby that bulk production of these models has become so hard.

 

R2835X_R2904_1a_r800.jpg

 

Rob

 

Like you, I too have been filling in 'gaps' in my collection this year in the absence of many new items coming through and in particular have been picking up Hornby models that I either missed the first time around or just couldn't afford at the time because of the sheer quantity of new releases some years. 

 

As I think I have already mentioned earlier in this thread, I have been plundering the generous stocks of Hornby models in my local shop. All have been new items I might add, and I'm afraid the prices might make you weep! I too have bought two very similar models to yours within the past couple of months - Black 5 R2686A, 44781, is one of their "The End of Steam" models, a 'limited' edition of 1004 that they produced along with 44871 to commemorate the final steam hauled timetabled passenger services in August 1968. I have no intention of trying to get hold of 44871 (R2686B) as I just felt I 'needed' a Black 5 in my collection, and wasn't really fussy which one, although 44871 would have allowed me to run it in 1960's guise or modern day as a mainline steam special! I already had a model of 'Britannia' 70000 R2975, in unlined black which was an early purchase for me and realising more recently that it is a bit of an oddball I decided a more prototypical lined green one was in order - again, I wasn't fussy which one - and my local shop had a few examples on the shelf with the best priced one being R2619, 'Hereward the Wake' 70037.

 

I still can't believe how much these models sell for second hand either from the likes or Rails or Hattons or on EBay. It makes me think I should re-evaluate my modest collection for insurance purposes!

 

I really hope that the likes of these models aren't the last of this level of quality and detail that we see from Hornby and I wish them them every success in turning their current fortunes around, but looking at recent releases and current second hand prices, i think these two beauties are absolute 'bargains' (relatively speaking I suppose!)

 

R2686A - Paid £86.75

 

R2619 - Paid £92.50

[robmcg]

You certainly got good value for new pristine models there, considering the cost of replacement at Hornby RRP. And the two you bought look superb, nice photos, thankyou.

 

I think I might have paid a little more than necessary for my weathered models but when I see something which really pleases me I don't mind paying a premium, especially when weathering and detailing is valued commercially at about $50 or more.

 

Also I think the supply of new models which are well-made is quite limited now, since quality control, while never brilliant, is possibly not quite as good now as it was. No way of supporting that except by anecdotal evidence from this website, though.

 

Hornby are committed as a business to producing good models and retaining customers, so the outlook is good. The question remains whether they will be able to sustain such as your Britannia at under £100 retail, I think not, given the high level of hand assembly at the factory. What are superb model these Britannias are!

 

Just out of interest, did you get your bag of coal with 70037? That was a nice thing I thought, when I bought my factory-new examples.

 

 

[leavesontheline]

You certainly got good value for new pristine models there, considering the cost of replacement at Hornby RRP. And the two you bought look superb, nice photos, thankyou.

 

I think I might have paid a little more than necessary for my weathered models but when I see something which really pleases me I don't mind paying a premium, especially when weathering and detailing is valued commercially at about $50 or more.

 

Also I think the supply of new models which are well-made is quite limited now, since quality control, while never brilliant, is possibly not quite as good now as it was. No way of supporting that except by anecdotal evidence from this website, though.

 

Hornby are committed as a business to producing good models and retaining customers, so the outlook is good. The question remains whether they will be able to sustain such as your Britannia at under £100 retail, I think not, given the high level of hand assembly at the factory. What are superb model these Britannias are!

 

Just out of interest, did you get your bag of coal with 70037? That was a nice thing I thought, when I bought my factory-new examples.

 

I did get the bag of coal with 70037!! (and with 70000 when i bought that a few years back) Amazing! I can't think of any other RTR (electric!) model supplied with a bag of coal ...... or was the Hornby Clan supplied with one too? I don't have one so i don't know - the Clan is another 'gap' in my fleet but probably a bit too far outside of my (admittedly rather large) theoretical sphere of operation! I have to agree with you on the quality of the Hornby Britannia though. It will certainly be interesting to do a side-by-side comparison of a Britannia and DoG when it finally surfaces docks!

 

I must apologise for not reading your post #872 properly - I see now that those photos weren't the actual examples and that you have in fact purchased weathered models. As you say, that can add a significant premium to the cost, if executed properly. It will be good to see what they look like, particularly when the images are given your 'normal treatment'!

 

I also agree with you on quality control - it has never been great with Hornby, not that Bachmann have been significantly better either. I think part of the reason so many Hornby (steam era in particular) models just 'passed me by' was because they really fell out of favour with me a few years back. There was a period of time where each model I would buy, or 'inspect' in store, would have a significant enough problem with it for me to reject it in store or have to return it. It became embarrassing in the end so I just stopped buying them.  One of the most common problems was with the two-part polystyrene packaging which followed the single-piece packaging (where you had to push the model out through one or more holes, sometimes with no knowledge of what you were pushing on!) The two part packaging was an improvement but the most common problem I still found was where the top of the boiler would become highly polished in one or more locations due to the packaging and the tissue paper rubbing away at the satin finish during transit. This resulted in an unsightly glossy area that was (probably still is!) beyond my painting (i.e. a new coat of satin varnish maybe?) or weathering skills to address! Ironically, during my recent re-awakening to Hornby steam locomotives, every one I have purchased has been as close to perfect as you can expect for a mass produced model! So maybe I was just unlucky before? On newer releases, Hornby seem to be making gradual improvements to the packaging - the clear plastic moulded inner being an example - but they still haven't quite got it right in my view. On the 72XX and 52XX tanks for example, we have this new packaging but positioned along the top of the model in the areas prone to transit damage is a long thin sheet of another plastic that seems to me to be just as hard and unforgiving as the moulded plastic! Bachmann on the other hand seem to have cracked it with their moulded plastic inner and the little sillicone-esque sheets of rubbery plastic positioned in strategic places. I have never had a damaged Bachmann model with this packaging arrangement. I think the key is that the rubbery stuff is softer than the finish on the model, and not the other way around! I would imagine though that these Bachmann cases with the little pieces of rubbery stuff glued in multiple positions must be a right old faff to put together and probably quite costly - maybe worth it for a reduction in returns though?

 

Continuing on the theme of 'where are the Hornby models?' I am pleased to report that another one has been liberated from my local shop today and now sits on the desk in front of me! No pictures yet but I am now the proud owner of rebuilt Patriot 45531 'Sir Frederick Harrison' R2632 for the princely sum of £80.50. This model must have the heaviest tender I think I have ever come across!

 

Maybe this thread and the 'Hornby 2014 Predictions' thread should be rolled into one now?! Both threads seem to feature a mixture of folk either so fed up with Hornby that they don't believe they will be around much longer, or on the flipside, those who think (hope) that just around the corner Hornby will be fulfilling their modelling dreams!