Where are the Hornby models?

[coachmann]

One I dun earlier....BR 'Duke' with its original Tender Code BR1E. This was closely similar to the BR1D type as fitted to Britannia's  70054-54. Now I don't know if Hornby ever did this Tender for the Brits, but if they did then this version is possible. The 'Duke' acquired the BR1J Tender, as on the new Hornby model, in November 1957...

 

[dibber25]

You are being less than fair to right-minded people on this forum........... We are not numpties by any stretch of the imagination. Simon Kohler told modellers at an exhibition the 12-spoke wheels on the 'Star' were correct.  I read somewhere on RMweb that Hornby is offering to exchange the bogie wheels for 10-spoke wheels............ that doesn't say much for Simon's outburst does it! He gets paid to be the personal link between Hornby and buyer. When PR men start bullsh*tting knowledgeable railway modellers, they do their company no favours.

As someone whose job has always involved taking responsibility for mistakes and problems even if they were not directly my fault (everything is the Editor's responsibility even if its not his fault - the standard mantra in publishing) I can appreciate Simon's position and find comments such as this pretty unreasonable. Even so, I can scarcely imagine the difficulty of having to take the brunt of endless enquiries and complaints resulting from the collapse of the largest Chinese model railway factory (10 times larger than any other, so I'm told) and the genuine attempts to obtain product from several smaller manufacturers, none of whom have the 15-20 years experience that Sander Kan had. As to 'right-minded people' I read that as 'Holier-than-thou' and I think after 37 pages which started being about Hornby and have become very personal about SK, its about time this thread got locked once and for all. 

CHRIS LEIGH

[coachmann]

 As to 'right-minded people' I read that as 'Holier-than-thou' and I think after 37 pages which started being about Hornby and have become very personal about SK, its about time this thread got locked once and for all. 

CHRIS LEIGH

This really is over the top. Your translation of 'right-minded people' to 'Holier than thou' is far removed from what I had in mind. In fact I was suprised to read this from a person in your position. Believe it or not, we all have private lives outside of RMweb and you don't know who are the solicitors, lawyers, bank managers, managers of companies, computer experts, electricians and tradesmen of other kinds. From your postings in recent months, you seem to have poor regard for 'modellers' and members of forums like RMweb.

[Ian Hargrave]

A more diplomatic way of expressing it would be ill-judged and inappropriate.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

One I dun earlier....BR 'Duke' with its original Tender Code BR1E. This was closely similar to the BR1D type as fitted to Britannia's  70054-54...

The BR1D is among Hornby's tooling pile, I have a 'Firth of Tay' acquired some years back with a conversion to DoG in mind in the 'one day to do' pile.

 

... its about time this thread got locked once and for all...

Why on Earth do you want to censor?

 

This is customers, discussing stuff they want to talk about relating to a supplier. This is the brave new world which everyone has to get used to. No more are the communications channels moderated, it is a free for all. The trouble has only just started, wait for really effective mass political engagement.

[Downer]

. The trouble has only just started, wait for really effective mass political engagement.

If only.

[brushman47544]

...the largest Chinese model railway factory (10 times larger than any other, so I'm told)...

 

Another fact that I for one am hearing for the first time... (thank you Chris).

 

All these pages, and previous threads, speculating about Hornby's problems arises primarily because we as their customers are seeing long delays to promised models and those that do arrive suffering in many cases from poor quality control during production, with no clear explanation from Hornby as to what is going on and why. Hornby has only itself to blame for this - if they explained what has happened, what they are doing about it and the timescales involved much of this debate wouldn't have happened. Whilst I understand their position as a listed company with shareholders, secrecy and what amounts to misinformation (such as saying things will be back to normal in 20xx but weren't and - as retailers on here have said - the porkies being told to them by Hornby) can have a much more damaging long term impact than providing accurate information from the outset. Inaccurate speculation can be much more damaging to their reputation.

 

But it's Hornby's choice - and they must accept the consequences. Keep us on side and things would I'm sure be very different.

[Andy Y]

I don't think it's right to target anyone personally within their role but the modelling community is left in a position where Simon is the one accessible medium who bears the brunt of any frsustrations. He's more than happy to be accessible too and has often said that people are free to contact him directly (but the numbers who do are comparatively few) and as a the representative of Hornby he's well used to it.

 

I'm not pretending to speak on Simon's behalf but I know there are many times when he's unable to give a full or correct answer particularly if it uses the word "When?" as there are many more variables now than they've ever had to deal with. Simon will often give information in good faith and circumstances conspire to wreck the credence of the information; the supply problems are complex, the solutions more so but it's evident that the organisation is trying rather then being neglectful of our frustrations. I know several items are imminent but it would be unfair to say what or when and be held to account for stating such if it doesn't happen for whatever reason in the final miles of the journey.

 

As part of the presentation ahead of Monday's announcements the problems were acknowledged and a snippet reads thus:

 

Why the delays?

There is no single reason for the lack of deliveries. It is a culmination of factors all

of which impinge on delivery dates.

 

 

How are Hornby going to correct the situation?

Providing updates on a regular basis.

Broadening the supply base.

Additional personnel both in the UK and Far East to focus more on supply issues.

Greater flow of information from suppliers.

 

 

The promised corrections may seem at odds with my preceding apology but only when those additional personnel provide good information to Hornby's public faces can we see an improvement in the position.

 

I'm sure there will be a number of product related questions after Monday's announcements but Simon has stated he's happy to help with any questions we have following on from that.

 

It's inevitable that consumers' frustrations show up in topics like this and there's certainly never any pressure to censor any content from the actual target of the frustration.

[Godfrey Glyn]

" When PR men start bullsh*tting knowledgeable railway modellers, they do their company no favours." Ah but does Simon know, at an exhibition, when dealing with hundreds of people, who the knowledgable modellers are? I have watched him on a number of occasions deal very very tactfully with members of the public who clearly thought they were knowledgeable but even to my ears were not. Added to that they were quite unable to give their views without becoming quite aggressive in tone. I wouldn't have Simon's job for any wage. Even if Hornby produced perfect models at little cost and preferably by yesterday ( and we know they don't) he would still have to deal with some people who would insist on telling him that Hornby were getting it wrong.I have on a number of occasions raised issues with him and always found him prepared to listen, even if he has not rushed to admit a problem. I really wouldn't expect him to do so when faced with a gaggle of fairly passionate modellers, he has to toe the company line.

Godfrey

[BR(S)]

This is customers, discussing stuff they want to talk about relating to a supplier. This is the brave new world which everyone has to get used to. No more are the communications channels moderated, it is a free for all. The trouble has only just started, wait for really effective mass political engagement.

 

 

Why is it that every time an allegedly "brave new world" crops up, someone tells us that everyone has to get used to it?!  Surely the alternative (maybe even a "brave-new-brave-new-world") is that some of us don't have to accept it at all.  If I wanted to live in a world where I have to plough through a mass of uninformed, irrational, empirically redundant, misological clap-trap (what companies call "engagement with customers via social media" in order to extract more cash from them) I'd just pay Endemol to set something up for me.

 

Don't forget, this is my "brave new world" and everyone has to get used it.  No need to critique it apparently, just get used to it . . .       

[APOLLO]

It's not all Hornby's (or Mr Kohler's) fault. I just Googled "China model train production problems" and got a whole lot of threads, many of which have been posted or commented on here, a lot of new (to me) interesting info also. Chinese production problems are not only in model railways either.

 

China's days of ultra cheap, skilled mass production is ending. Those skilled are moving to better paid jobs in higher end technology. India / Thailand / Mexico mentioned, though these countries will (may) go the same way. Just exactly why the Chinese factory employing over 3000 people, with full order books closed however seems to remain a mystery.

 

Hornby (and others) really does need to diversify production locations if they are to survive. It may be to late already for some (hope not). Do not rule out a return to the UK for some Hornby items also (already happening with paint I believe). Prices will rise, detail (quality ?) will fall.

 

I think the "days of plenty" and cheap highly detailed models is coming to an end. This has implications for model shops, and large retailers like Hattons with over 30 staff and large shop / warehouse overheads. They are no doubt slowly running out of stock (hence the recent foray into s/hand "like new" & "weathered by Hattons like new" ranges.

 

The UK recession coupled with next to non existant pay rises and huge rises in basic cost of living (accommodation, food, energy) has reduced the model purchases of many.

 

Interesting times ahead.

 

Brit15

[davidw]

It's not all Hornby's (or Mr Kohler's) fault. I just Googled "China model train production problems" and got a whole lot of threads, many of which have been posted or commented on here, a lot of new (to me) interesting info also. Chinese production problems are not only in model railways either.

 

China's days of ultra cheap, skilled mass production is ending. Those skilled are moving to better paid jobs in higher end technology. India / Thailand / Mexico mentioned, though these countries will (may) go the same way. Just exactly why the Chinese factory employing over 3000 people, with full order books closed however seems to remain a mystery.

 

Hornby (and others) really does need to diversify production locations if they are to survive. It may be to late already for some (hope not). Do not rule out a return to the UK for some Hornby items also (already happening with paint I believe). Prices will rise, detail (quality ?) will fall.

 

I think the "days of plenty" and cheap highly detailed models is coming to an end. This has implications for model shops, and large retailers like Hattons with over 30 staff and large shop / warehouse overheads. They are no doubt slowly running out of stock (hence the recent foray into s/hand "like new" & "weathered by Hattons like new" ranges.

 

The UK recession coupled with next to non existant pay rises and huge rises in basic cost of living (accommodation, food, energy) has reduced the model purchases of many.

 

Interesting times ahead.

 

Brit15

A brilliant assessment.

[BR(S)]

This really is over the top. Your translation of 'right-minded people' to 'Holier than thou' is far removed from what I had in mind. In fact I was suprised to read this from a person in your position. Believe it or not, we all have private lives outside of RMweb and you don't know who are the solicitors, lawyers, bank managers, managers of companies, computer experts, electricians and tradesmen of other kinds. From your postings in recent months, you seem to have poor regard for 'modellers' and members of forums like RMweb.

 

 

Ah but does Simon know, at an exhibition, when dealing with hundreds of people, who the knowledgable modellers are? I have watched him on a number of occasions deal very very tactfully with members of the public who clearly thought they were knowledgeable but even to my ears were not. Added to that they were quite unable to give their views without becoming quite aggressive in tone. I wouldn't have Simon's job for any wage. Even if Hornby produced perfect models at little cost and preferably by yesterday ( and we know they don't) he would still have to deal with some people who would insist on telling him that Hornby were getting it wrong.I have on a number of occasions raised issues with him and always found him prepared to listen, even if he has not rushed to admit a problem. I really wouldn't expect him to do so when faced with a gaggle of fairly passionate modellers, he has to toe the company line.

Godfrey

 

Quite.  I don't think anyone has any problem with people who engage with companies and the individual people within in a rational, discursive manner, offering advice and opinion that is intelligent and based on knowledge and experience.  Even an "I don't remember it like that but maybe my memory is playing tricks" is fine.  But we have been seeing for years an ever increasing number of children-in-adult-form who basically stamp their feet about things.  They invariably drool over the "freedom of speech" of social media (if I must use that term) for the opposite reason that it gives them an opportunity to play at being the foot-stamping diva, but they don't want to entertain others free speech or, God help us, a rational response that blows their drivel out of the water! 

 

It seems quite simple: engage with the companies whose products you have an interest in, don't forget you're engaging with human beings and present a rational, thought-through discussion, based on what knowledge, experience and evidence you have.  Leave the foot-stamping back in your childhood.  This is a good example of how it can be done.  There's discussion, there's a presentation of evidence, people are calm (why wouldn't they be?!) and some contacted Bachmann (I can only hope in an equally considerate manner):

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78974-decorated-samples-of-class-101/   

 

And no doubt, like myself, having seen the irrational foot-stamping many times in his career (especially his recent career), Chris Leigh's position makes perfect sense.  With regard to coachmann, it doesn't matter what background people come from and I'm not sure why you have focussed on employment position (what the hell does that really tell us about anyone?); irrational foot-stamping looks cheap and tacky from anyone.  That doesn't mean everyone does it, but I think it's starting to become the norm. 

[Arthur]

.

 

China's days of ultra cheap, skilled mass production is ending. Those skilled are moving to better paid jobs in higher end technology. India / Thailand / Mexico mentioned, though these countries will (may) go the same way.

 

Brit15

As an indication of the changing times I caught a programme on a Radio 4 yesterday evening about the resurgent Mexican economy. Just a few years back Chinese average wages were 8x lower than those in Mexico, now Chinese average wages are on the verge of exceeding those in Mexico. Consequently Mexico is seeing large inwards investment by international manufacturing companies in the automotive and electronics fields, amongst others.

[coachmann]

Chris Leigh's position makes perfect sense.  With regard to coachmann, it doesn't matter what background people come from and I'm not sure why you have focussed on employment position (what the hell does that really tell us about anyone?);  irrational foot-stamping looks cheap and tacky from anyone. 

You know Chris Leigh's employment and have taken his position without question.

[7013]

It never fails to amaze me how some posters seem to want to blame people and lynch them in public. I posted my opinion in good faith, I do not expect all to agree with me, it will not change my opinion if they do disagree, it's model railways for goodness sake, it's not like it is the most important thing in the world.

Simon Kohler made a mistake but some people seem to be baying for blood. I do not always agree with Chris Leigh but as for locking this thread I do agree with Chris because it is becoming too personal and not adding to the debate.

[Oldddudders]

On the other hand, while not knowing what you do, .

Referring to coachmann, I find that an astonishing remark. He has been in the same line of business for more than 40 years to my knowledge - and during most of that time I have modelled other than the UK prototypes at which he excels.

[Ozexpatriate]

I don't think we need to lock the thread.

 

Nor should we get out the pitchforks and torches - with people from Hornby, or for that matter with each other.

 

Hornby has to step up their game. I believe that they understand this even better than we do. They are a public company and are beholden to their shareholders. They are required to be honest with their shareholders but at the same time maintain the value of the company in the eyes of the public for the benefit of their shareholders.

 

This tightrope requires that they don't air all the dirty laundry. Such activity would likely drastically devalue their stock and they (and we) need them to have an optimistic outlook and demonstrate that they continue to be a going concern.

 

To be competitive they do need to do a better job in communications with their most enthusiastic customers. Their competitors do a better job of communicating the progress of new product development, so much so that even when problems or substantial delays are encountered, (modified Hall, LMS porthole stock, GWR DukeDog, etc) we give their competitors a pass, because they are communicating effectively. This is a missing component at Hornby and is probably easier to fix than the trauma they are experiencing on the factory floor.

[The Stationmaster]

As someone who has been quoted (in effect) in this debate) I'm a little surprised how heated it seems to have become this afternoon.  Simon Kohler has a thankles job and I know from what others have told me that he has had a particularly hard year in terms of exhibition attendances - which at times no doubt add-up to give him seven day weeks (and having done enough of them over the years I can understand that they might be wearing for some folk, especially when they occupy the 'Aunt Sally position' at model railway exhibitions as he does).

 

As far as I am concerned I have found him helpful and polite in emails and offering, when tackled at exhibitions, cogent and logical explanations for supply problems and delayed releases  (and such delays rarely worry me in any case) but, and it is a big but, I regarded it as downright disingenuous to be told by him that I was wrong and Hornby was right when I queried the matter of the bogie wheels on the Hornby stand at Wycrail and I didn't like the way it was said.  That however is over and done and no doubt the bloke had been feeling the pressure of a number of closely spaced shows but it wasn't even so much a matter of 'we'll look into it' as a downright 'I'm right and you're wrong'.

 

BTW as far as 'engaging with the companies whose products you I have an interest in' is concerned that is exactly what I was doing on that occasion - I had two 'Stars' on order so it struck me as not unreasonable to query what, from initial production samples, was an error.  I got a profuse apology from 'Steam' for that same error (and in the event bought some Gibson bogie wheels for the one 'Star' which I haven't put on hold pending seeing what it's like).

 

But it's history, it's a minor discussion which basically I've forgotten and don't regard as some sort of longstanding personal insult or anything else; I recognise SK has a job most people would pack in within a few weeks if they got half the flak he gets and that sometimes he's bound to get a bit blunt.  And incidentally there's no need to get all steamed up about it on here - I reported it on here, at the time, and that's it and Coachmann mentioned it as an example in making his point.

 

My main concern with Hornby remains one of the way they are targetting their products (a subject that will perhaps arise in the thread which starts on Monday?) and the impact of their delays on retailers in particular and their livelihoods (and yes, I know Hornby are not the only ones suffering production delays - it 's just that their well established place in the widest sectors of the model railway retail market has a greater potential effect on the retail trade when product is not reaching the shops).

[Ozexpatriate]

It's not all Hornby's (or Mr Kohler's) fault. ...

 

Just exactly why the Chinese factory employing over 3000 people, with full order books closed however seems to remain a mystery.

You might find this post helpful.

 

It was a standard operating procedure for hedge funds and other investment companies to borrow money to acquire companies. They would then transfer that loan debt to the books of the acquisition target, saddling a previously unencumbered company with an enormous debt load and walk away with the profits.

 

This sort of finance for finance's sake is part of the business culture that led to the crash in 2008, which if you will remember is the time that Sanda Kan collapsed.

[APOLLO]

Thanks Ozexpatriate, that thread & associated links is very enlightening. Seems not very much Hornby could have done about that. I won't post my thoughts re these "investment" companies, they are not very nice, especially at Xmas !!.

 

I often wonder what is around the corner, in any industry today, when these thieving vermin have such clout, no doubt aided and abetted by those in political power. 

 

Lets all hope Hornby & SK can somehow rebuild their product base & customer confidence.

 

Brit15

[Ozexpatriate]

I often wonder what is around the corner, in any industry today, when these thieving vermin have such clout,

The shift in perceived shareholder value from stable companies that provide an annual dividend* to quarter by quarter growth in stock price is the root cause of much that is criticized here. It is certainly not limited to model railway production. Companies are no longer valued for providing stable jobs or consistent stable profit over time. Quarterly growth is the criteria by which the market measures performance. The unintended consequences of this shift have changed everything and, I think, not for the better.

 

* Which is the way Hornby tries to operate.

 

Lets all hope Hornby ... can somehow rebuild their product base & customer confidence.

Indeed so.

[robmcg]

 Simon Kohler told modellers at an exhibition the 12-spoke wheels on the 'Star' were correct.  I read somewhere on RMweb that Hornby is offering to exchange the bogie wheels for 10-spoke wheels............ that doesn't say much for Simon's outburst does it! He gets paid to be the personal link between Hornby and buyer. When PR men start bullsh*tting knowledgeable railway modellers, they do their company no favours.

 

As I read the description of SK's feelings at the time, it was not an 'outburst'. The subsequent offer of replacement 10-spoke wheels free does nothing but suggest credit on Hornby. I know SK well enough to say that he is patient and positive by nature, and not generally given to rudeness of any kind, let alone underestimating the model railway community.

 

Even though his job often requires him to be a public face, he should not have to defend the position of every moulding or rivet on a model, a task which he finds himself doing long after most of us would have given in to despair.

 

It should not be so personal, even though in a sense this post is in defence of SK.

 

Nor should this topic be locked.

 

Rob

[robmcg]

" When PR men start bullsh*tting knowledgeable railway modellers, they do their company no favours." Ah but does Simon know, at an exhibition, when dealing with hundreds of people, who the knowledgable modellers are? I have watched him on a number of occasions deal very very tactfully with members of the public who clearly thought they were knowledgeable but even to my ears were not. Added to that they were quite unable to give their views without becoming quite aggressive in tone. I wouldn't have Simon's job for any wage. Even if Hornby produced perfect models at little cost and preferably by yesterday ( and we know they don't) he would still have to deal with some people who would insist on telling him that Hornby were getting it wrong.I have on a number of occasions raised issues with him and always found him prepared to listen, even if he has not rushed to admit a problem. I really wouldn't expect him to do so when faced with a gaggle of fairly passionate modellers, he has to toe the company line.

Godfrey

 

I thought this says it all and deserves repeating.

 

Now, where is that fresh new pic of a weathered Hornby B1 I have lying around?

[coachmann]

I thought this says it all and deserves repeating.

 

Now, where is that fresh new pic of a weathered Hornby B1 I have lying around?

Why is it worth repeating. It's not one of your images.