DJM wish list thread

[RBAGE]

There has been a whole thread on this elsewhere on this forum, and many mentions on others. It all comes down to two things:

 

a) what do you mean and do enough other people agree with you (they haven't managed to yet)

 

B) how to make money from a seriously major investment with relatively small unit revenue, demanding a majorly mass market pretty quickly. In a poll in the above-mentioned thread, the vast majority would not use such track until their "next layout",

 

It became clear that the best route to this, is to persuade someone like Peco, to go down this route, who already have much of the means of production of same, but who would still need to make many new moulds to satisfy the number of variations to turnouts and track types that such a discerning clientele would demand, and would have to sell a lot of each. However, their immediate response would be, what is the answer to Question (a)?

Thanks Mike,

Your logic is flawless.

However, if business was that easy, everyone would be doing it.

There is absolutely no incentive for Peco to ever change as they have captive market which, according to the poll you mention, will never be challenged.

Peco continue to provide us with something that bears no resemblance to the real thing because it satisfies the US market.

Yes, I'm well aware of the compromise we put up with when it comes to 00 gauge but there's no way you can make Peco track look realistic.

SMP on the other hand can look very convincing in 00 because of the correct sleeper width and spacing.

I am sure Peco make a profit out of the UK track market. Of course nobody is going to go out and buy track until they need it but when the time came I'm sure most people would opt for that little extra "realism".

Bob

[RBAGE]

This is SMP 00 gauge track.

 

The difference is startling and at an angle other than from a helicopter, I think it's very convincing.

 

You can't say that for Peco track.

 

SMP track is quite a bit more expensive than Peco but I think it's worth it.

 

With points to match, at an equivalent premium, I think this would greatly interest the modeller and a prospective supplier.

[farren]

I recall you saying that you had planned to concentrate on locomotives. but a set of coaches which I think would sell well especially as Hornby have been knocking out the locos on and of for years but have never really done a proper job of LMS Coronation Scot coaches

Edited November 18, 2014 by farren

[DJM Dave]

I recall you saying that you had planned to concentrate on locomotives. but a set of coaches which I think would sell well especially as Hornby have been knocking out the locos on and of for years but have never really done a proper job of LMS Coronation Scot coaches

Hi mate, I agree totally.

 

Cheers

Dave

[wombatofludham]

Ooh yes, a Corrie Scot...I'd buy one.  Even if it came in at about £400 which must be roughly what it would work out at.

[DLPG]

How about....

 

[farren]

I think it would clash with the blue and silver coaches

[bike2steam]

It's amusing to read some people's ideas of new 'products' that should be added to the rtr list, but are they just personal 'pets' without any thought of commercial demand ?? Very few seem to be, I think a thread title like this one is fraught with outlandish subjects - keep 'em coming.

[Devo63]

I know you've got a production programme that is already longer than an orang-utan's arm plus a queue of us with Kickstarter ideas (still haven't forgotten the 86..) but, thinking a bit left-field, what about something like a Stephenson "Patentee" 2-2-2 from the early days of railways, or something similar?  My thinking is that whilst very few at the moment model the early 1830-50 period, a model of a "very pretty little kettle" would appeal not only to those of us who are interested in this era but also to collectors and people who just want a pretty little loco to be stuffed and mounted on the desk - or even as a stuffed and mounted loco on a plinth outside an OO scale station in a park.  It could also be something that could create a whole new genre of modelling similar to the growing rtr OO9 products seem to be doing in that field.  You'd might need some coaches and probably some wagons (a flat and a chauldron hopper should suffice) but even just a loco would be a start, and I'm sure would appeal just as much as an impulse "Ooh that's pretty" type buy, if not more so.

 

Could also tie in with the Manchester science museum...

On the subject of ye olde locos my choice would be a model of L&MR No.57 'Lion'. The original still exists for possible scanning (even though not as originally built) and would be a popular choice for those wanting to recreate scenes from the movie 'The Titfield Thunderbolt'. I built (& rebuilt) the old K's kit years ago and it has always been a favorite when I can get it to keep running.

 

Creating a whole new genre seems like a good idea. How about a full range of ready to run broad gauge?    

 

Dave 

[Mike Storey]

Thanks Mike,

Your logic is flawless.

However, if business was that easy, everyone would be doing it.

There is absolutely no incentive for Peco to ever change as they have captive market which, according to the poll you mention, will never be challenged.

Peco continue to provide us with something that bears no resemblance to the real thing because it satisfies the US market.

Yes, I'm well aware of the compromise we put up with when it comes to 00 gauge but there's no way you can make Peco track look realistic.

SMP on the other hand can look very convincing in 00 because of the correct sleeper width and spacing.

I am sure Peco make a profit out of the UK track market. Of course nobody is going to go out and buy track until they need it but when the time came I'm sure most people would opt for that little extra "realism".

Bob

 

Not sure where you are coming from Bob? My post emphasises that this business is not easy! SMP is fine and dandy, if you want wooden-sleepered BH track, but it comes at a price, as you state in your following post. The poll also showed that most people would not pay that price, and clearly do not pay, otherwise SMP and C&L would have wiped Peco out by now. Equally, neither marque is really in the RTL category, as the turnouts need to be fixed and provided with a separate point operating mechanism. Thus, "most people would go out and buy it" is patently not happening. For someone, like Dave, to start from scratch with a competitive product to Peco, but to 00 rather than HO, at only a marginal premium, would be commercial suicide. Peco have shown innovation (Bi-Block track for example, which won the coveted Product of the Year award from the association of French railway modellers the year it came out). Peco brought out Code 83 for the US market, which I believe sells far more than the Code 75 or 100 over there (anyone know for sure?) but they could have just left it well alone. Streamline sells quite well for HO in Western Europe, but competes with the more expensive Tillig, Fleischmann, Roco and so on - it does not have a near monopoly unlike the UK. Peco's moulds will wear out, and they can renew them in a different format. Peco's question remains - what is it you all want? And then it will be, is the UK market big enough to make our money back at comparable prices to existing HO track, or will we be competing at SMP's prices?

 

Personally, I have found by using enough gunge when weathering, Peco can look pretty realistic for modern track. One has to suspend disbelief anyway for 00 gauge!

[OOgaugeJaf]

How about....

 

DSC_0247.JPG

Have to agree an excellent model and I believe there were a few of them built. No 5 and No29 both preserved. Anymore anyone? I think there seems to be an appetite for industrials at the moment and they can fit most folks layouts. The sentinel and the J94 show that. I will be ordering from Hattons probably 2.

[DJM Dave]

Not sure where you are coming from Bob? My post emphasises that this business is not easy! SMP is fine and dandy, if you want wooden-sleepered BH track, but it comes at a price, as you state in your following post. The poll also showed that most people would not pay that price, and clearly do not pay, otherwise SMP and C&L would have wiped Peco out by now. Equally, neither marque is really in the RTL category, as the turnouts need to be fixed and provided with a separate point operating mechanism. Thus, "most people would go out and buy it" is patently not happening. For someone, like Dave, to start from scratch with a competitive product to Peco, but to 00 rather than HO, at only a marginal premium, would be commercial suicide. Peco have shown innovation (Bi-Block track for example, which won the coveted Product of the Year award from the association of French railway modellers the year it came out). Peco brought out Code 83 for the US market, which I believe sells far more than the Code 75 or 100 over there (anyone know for sure?) but they could have just left it well alone. Streamline sells quite well for HO in Western Europe, but competes with the more expensive Tillig, Fleischmann, Roco and so on - it does not have a near monopoly unlike the UK. Peco's moulds will wear out, and they can renew them in a different format. Peco's question remains - what is it you all want? And then it will be, is the UK market big enough to make our money back at comparable prices to existing HO track, or will we be competing at SMP's prices?

 

Personally, I have found by using enough gunge when weathering, Peco can look pretty realistic for modern track. One has to suspend disbelief anyway for 00 gauge!

 

As i'm pretty sure this has been covered in other threads, i'll just say this........................

 

I could, if the funding allowed, produce the most modern specification, authentic looking track, points etc. However, here's the rub..........money!

 

When i got quotes form China a few years back i would have needed £250,000+ to get started with just a yard of track and 2 points. (taking into account very fine standards, tightening up on what we are used to at the minute with no wheel drop into the frog etc etc).

 

There's the stumbling block as not only does it need a shed load of money, but the will, across the whole modelling spectrum of OO to buy it / convert to it. 

At the moment, the current 'go to' manufacturer has amortised the tooling so its relatively free money in terms of profit, so can afford, if there is serious competition to lower their prices to kill the market for a competitor, and who could blame them?

 

I dont think it will happen in my lifetime, that's for sure.

cheers

Dave

 

[Revolution Mike]

I know that Easitrac and Finetrax are not RTR, but the tooling costs were no where near £250k!

 

Cheers, Mike

[Vanders]

I know that Easitrac and Finetrax are not RTR, but the tooling costs were no where near £250k!

fiNetrax is in fact a great example that it can be done at reasonable cost and a reasonable price. It also proves that you can't please all of the people all of the time.

[RBAGE]

It's nice to hear that some people agree with my comments and sentiment, even to the point of expressing that agreement.

 

I have no reason to doubt the cost quoted to get a simple range of track products off the ground but it does seem excessive. Don't know which toolmakers you looked at. Maybe they didn't want the business.

 

Having worked in the automotive industry for more than 25 years and having dealt with suppliers and toolmakers for new product far more complicated than a length of track and a couple points, if tooling costs were that high I doubt if my employer would still be in business.

 

Anyway, I've engaged this threat in a subject which doesn't seem to be going anywhere for far too long.

 

Bob 

[DJM Dave]

It's nice to hear that some people agree with my comments and sentiment, even to the point of expressing that agreement.

 

I have no reason to doubt the cost quoted to get a simple range of track products off the ground but it does seem excessive. Don't know which toolmakers you looked at. Maybe they didn't want the business.

 

Having worked in the automotive industry for more than 25 years and having dealt with suppliers and toolmakers for new product far more complicated than a length of track and a couple points, if tooling costs were that high I doubt if my employer would still be in business.

 

Anyway, I've engaged this threat in a subject which doesn't seem to be going anywhere for far too long.

 

Hi Bob,

 In all honesty I'd have thought that if it was a viable mainstream option it would have been done by now.

 

But that's the problem you see, it has to be mainstream, be tough, good looking, full of features ( rather like me really ;-) ), and to do this takes a lot of money.

 

Whether you dispute the costs or not is not the issue, the viability of track to replace the Peco range is the big question. And as such no one has thought it worth spending the money on such a range that everyone from little Jonny on Christmas day to the more fine scale approach modeller can use and think........wow!

 

If you think of that, the question to 'why not' is almost self explaining.

Cheers

Dave

[RBAGE]

Thanks Dave,

 

I'll just wait for the Q6 and put another order into C and L.

 

Bob

[AlfaZagato]

Just some finality on the track system, I'd love it if Peco was readily available near me to be a reasonable option.  At times, I would pay near as much for Peco track as I would for Kato Unitrack.  My other option is *shiver* Atlas.

[south_tyne]

Something I am surprised no major manufactuter has never taken a punt on is a Y6 or J70 tram loco. Yes they are quite locationally specific, yes there were not many of them... BUT... I am sure they are a class that many railway enthusiasts have a soft spot for and could potentially sell well. They were pretty unique and interestin and then of course there is the Toby factor, surely they would be a big seller.

 

I am sure it must have been considered before at least so maybe I am just being naive to markets and business. It would be lovely to see one mind... I'll keep dreaming in any case!

 

And Dave they are only a box on wheels so it cannot be too complex a design job... (he says with tongue firmly in cheek...)

[D5541]

By Jove, I've got it!

A revamp of the Triang dock shunter to 'modern standards' (dcc, directional lights, room for a speaker etc)

It has to be the near perfect loco...

 

- Appealing design

- Not 100% based on a specific prototype so no errors for the rivet counters to pick up on

- A bit of nostalgia for those that used to have one

- A bit of fun for those that didn't

- Ideal starter loco, could potter round yards and shunting planks anywhere

- Satisfies the call for more industrial locos

- Those that model 'neglected' regions don't need to feel left out any more, just tell them it really is from their end of the world

- Almost countless liveries, could run in any region/br/sector/ private owner livery you wanted

 

See, bound to be a winner with that many boxes ticked ;-)

 

Cheers

 

Dan :-)

[coachmann]

Seeing as it's a wish list thread, never let it be said I didn't mention the LMS Fowler 3P 2-6-2T and 7F 0-8-0...

[Purley Oaks]

I only have one DJ loco on order at the moment, so hope I qualify here - there's been a lot of chat on other threads about the Kernow 2H and Bachmann's 2EPB and the lack of centre coaches.

 

Centre coaches for both are broadly similar, so would a run of these be worthwhile or is it something "not done" because it's interfering with another company's models?

 

My bet is that you'd sell a lot, although colour matching to green, blue, blue/grey, nse, connex could be tricky - not to mention the couplings/lights etc.

 

Is it a goer, Dave? I'd be up for 3 green at least (2H and 2EPB) and a couple of blue/grey (2EPB)

 

Mal

[DJM Dave]

I only have one DJ loco on order at the moment, so hope I qualify here - there's been a lot of chat on other threads about the Kernow 2H and Bachmann's 2EPB and the lack of centre coaches.

 

Centre coaches for both are broadly similar, so would a run of these be worthwhile or is it something "not done" because it's interfering with another company's models?

 

My bet is that you'd sell a lot, although colour matching to green, blue, blue/grey, nse, connex could be tricky - not to mention the couplings/lights etc.

 

Is it a goer, Dave? I'd be up for 3 green at least (2H and 2EPB) and a couple of blue/grey (2EPB)

 

Mal

Hi Mal,

 

Great question.

 

I havnt been asked to do centre coaches, but I do see where your coming from. The problem is cost, as a coach isn't cheap, for the small return on the investment, when you compare it to a loco or indeed a DMU where you start from scratch and build the costs into the initial tooling.

 

I'd do one myself but for that reason. However the British public, despite horrendous price rises this last 18 months and more to come in the next 6months aren't quite willing to pay what I need to charge ( plus stockists markup) to make it viable I'm afraid.

 

Cheers

Dave

[bigdaveadams1]

Dave, I'm not a demanding sort of person but as it's a wish list........

 

Southern Region EMUs. EPBs (although I suspect Bachmann have that covered R&D wise), so I'm thinking VEPs, CIGs and 455s.

 

I know that in OO the EMU sales are indifferent but in N gauge, I really think it's an untapped revenue earner. But, then I have to ask myself, if there was money to be had we'd have seen more EMUs being produced.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Edited November 29, 2014 by bigdaveadams1

[Budgie]

I only have one DJ loco on order at the moment, so hope I qualify here - there's been a lot of chat on other threads about the Kernow 2H and Bachmann's 2EPB and the lack of centre coaches.

 

Centre coaches for both are broadly similar, so would a run of these be worthwhile or is it something "not done" because it's interfering with another company's models?

 

My bet is that you'd sell a lot, although colour matching to green, blue, blue/grey, nse, connex could be tricky - not to mention the couplings/lights etc.

 

Is it a goer, Dave? I'd be up for 3 green at least (2H and 2EPB) and a couple of blue/grey (2EPB)

 

Mal

You can't put centre coaches in a 2EPB to make a 4EPB, because the 4EPB had two motor coaches, and the 2EPB has one motor coach and one driving trailer. So to make a 4EPB you'd need to start with 2 x 2EPB, which could be costly.

 

All Bachmann would need to do is make a non-powered motor coach to go with the centre cars and the powered motor coach. Not so expensive.