Decorated Samples of Class 101

[multiprinter]

 

 

 

What worries me more is the position of the top of the grey panel. It's obviously too low (I can't find any photographs with it this close to the top of the sidelights)... but wait: it looks pretty consistent with the prototype in terms of the level of the cantrail/ old rainstrip. If you thicken the grey panel to raise it to the correct level above the sidelights, the distance between it and the cantrail would appear to be too shallow. Does this mean that the sidelights are either too low or the wrong shape (too thin)?

 

 

 

The grey panel position was inclined to vary depending on which works had painted it.  

[DropTheTap]

That was the 105s wasn't it? Or was it the 108s? Definitely not the met-camms though.

 

The windows of a 101 are quite distinctive, so to get them wrong is a big problem.

 

Both class 101 and 105 had body profiles that matched mark 1 coaches ("First Gen DMUs in Colour", page 22).

[DropTheTap]

The grey panel position was inclined to vary depending on which works had painted it.  

 

Agree completely. I've seen pics whereby the grey panel extended varying distances below the sidelights, and even almost to the rainstrip above them; yet searches haven't turned up anything with the panel as close to the top of the windows as Bachmann have represented.

[brushman47544]

Concerning the Green SYP version, can anyone advise please which of the two versions of bodyside lining came first, or was it a regional variation perhaps?

 

Firstly, with the lower bodyside stripe below the windows:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34800790@N04/5546387697/in/photolist-9s7FQ6-9D3bRh-akGMFW-9CCEqp-9BFP6j-9AWez6-9CCAKn-dDWVcK-9BVoVD-9CCFAB-9BYkG3-9CCCJz-dPAQkU-akGKhN-akGKao-9BVp4g-akDVRZ-9AKuT5-dPWKXz-akDUEZ-9CZhLX-9D3akm-bszA3a-iRyq2t-e8RSre-dgTw7B-bU4CXR-gpbLuX-d4paGb-dRHiw5-gH1QJJ-9saFsU-dGv63u-eniM7Q-hme27m-9xb7NY-ehC8f4-a4rQX4-a58hyF-9CjdYW-bF9WYm-bU4D9i-9BCKjc-9BCSE8-bU4G7c-bF9TTs-bF9SRQ-bU4G48-gVRLdg-bU4CNr-bU4BMR

 

or midway, as per the Bachmann image and presumably therefore the production livery, as here:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5657929784/

 

Thanks in advance.

[cravensdmufan]

From memory of seeing lots of these units at Norwich in the 60's - the version with the line midway was the original "as built" livery (without warning panels which were added afterwards).  I can't be completely 100% certain on that so it's best to check old photos.  I have a few books and I'll check them out when I get a chance and get back to you. 

 

In the meantime, this photo shows one that looks as though it's straight out of the factory http://www.railcar.co.uk/type/101/101.html

 

 

All the best.

[Martin_R]

or midway, as per the Bachmann image and presumably therefore the production livery, as here:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5657929784/

 

Thanks in advance.

 Hi - looking at this pic the two cars in the unit show both variants so looks like it might be a case of checking the livery and number each car within each unit against a dated photo just to be sure!?!

I think I will duck and run now!

 

Cheers,

Martin.

[DropTheTap]

Concerning the Green SYP version, can anyone advise please which of the two versions of bodyside lining came first, or was it a regional variation perhaps?

 

Firstly, with the lower bodyside stripe below the windows:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34800790@N04/5546387697/in/photolist-9s7FQ6-9D3bRh-akGMFW-9CCEqp-9BFP6j-9AWez6-9CCAKn-dDWVcK-9BVoVD-9CCFAB-9BYkG3-9CCCJz-dPAQkU-akGKhN-akGKao-9BVp4g-akDVRZ-9AKuT5-dPWKXz-akDUEZ-9CZhLX-9D3akm-bszA3a-iRyq2t-e8RSre-dgTw7B-bU4CXR-gpbLuX-d4paGb-dRHiw5-gH1QJJ-9saFsU-dGv63u-eniM7Q-hme27m-9xb7NY-ehC8f4-a4rQX4-a58hyF-9CjdYW-bF9WYm-bU4D9i-9BCKjc-9BCSE8-bU4G7c-bF9TTs-bF9SRQ-bU4G48-gVRLdg-bU4CNr-bU4BMR

 

or midway, as per the Bachmann image and presumably therefore the production livery, as here:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/5657929784/

 

Thanks in advance.

 

The Mackay book (page 17) states that the original lining was that which went through the sidelights and curved down at the front (the "midway" line as you put it). This livery actually had three lines, one being applied at the very bottom of the bodyside.

 

The version with the straight center line (and no lower line) was a later alteration. Some 'photos also make it appear that this version had a thicker, more yellow center stripe, although this could be down to the picture itself. Presumably the lining out was changed to be more in line with that on other DMU types, although I can't find any definitive answer for that (or exactly when), unfortunately!

[cravensdmufan]

Just looked at quite a few photos of the Met Camms in Ian Allan's First generation DMU's in East Anglia.

 

The very first Met Camm units introduced were a non standard coupling code (yellow diamond that were compatible with the original Derby Lightweights).  These were never classified Class 101 and were all withdrawn by the late 60's.  All photos of these original units show the line below the windows.  They could easily be identified as they had the MU jumper sockets just below the front cab windows.  And modelled by Tri-ang (albeit under-length and lower stripe incorrectly at the very bottom of the body) R157 all those years ago!

 

The much more numerous Class 101 builds all appear to have the midway line - indeed as DropTheTap says, they had the three lines.

 

But naturally there could have been exceptions....as always!

[DaveF]

Just looked at quite a few photos of the Met Camms in Ian Allan's First generation DMU's in East Anglia.

 

The very first Met Camm units introduced were a non standard coupling code (yellow diamond that were compatible with the original Derby Lightweights).  These were never classified Class 101 and were all withdrawn by the late 60's.  All photos of these original units show the line below the windows.  They could easily be identified as they had the MU jumper sockets just below the front cab windows.  And modelled by Tri-ang (albeit under-length and lower stripe incorrectly at the very bottom of the body) R157 all those years ago!

 

The much more numerous Class 101 builds all appear to have the midway line - indeed as DropTheTap says, they had the three lines.

 

But naturally there could have been exceptions....as always!

 

I never like to contradict anyone but there is a photo in British Rail dmus and Diesel Railcars, Brian Morrison, pub Ian Allan ISBN 0 7110 2629 7  on page 18of one of the original lightweight Metro Cammell dmus with the middle line through the windows and curving down to be below the cab windows at the front.

 

Also, both the linked photos in post 104 are of Class 101s, taken by my Dad when we lived in Harrogate, so 101s existed with both forms of lining.

 

I think that there must have been a change in th style of lining used at some time.  I think the earlier version may be the line through the windows, as the original lightweight is shown like that in 1955, the earliest with the straight line below the windows is dated 1959 in the above book.

 

David

Edited to remove an errant full stop.

D

[Andy Y]

I had a chance last week to take a close-up look at the livery sample of the 101 and hopefully address some of the notes within this topic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From my point of view the only thing that jars is the bogie/floor space (it's not dimensionally inaccurate but there's more fresh air than the real thing's undergubbings) but that's a fact of life when OO stock has to run round train sets and from the normal perspective from above and a couple of feet away is no worse than any other similar product. Anyway I'd looked at the earlier images and did have some question marks over the windows and relative heights but I had the opportunity to take a look at them in detail and compare to dimensioned drawings and the model is as near as can be achieved. Where any issue lies is in the moulding of the window surround, on the real thing it's ridged/ribbed (with a black rubber edging in most cases) and on the model it's flat and slightly overscale. This fact is accepted and although it can't be changed as they're too far down the tooling process it will be tested to see if a slight darkening of the surround on the blue/grey model can mitigate some of this.

 

The livery needs some adjustment and the appearance of this was compounded on the B/G version by choosing a Cambridge allocated unit which had livery differences from others at the first class end. The livery sample reflected the photo but it's not necessarily correct for other units.

 

I did some checking of comparative window heights compared to a poor snap of the Met Camm on the GCR and the relational positions are barely out although the overlaid image (which may not be perfect due to the slightly different heights the picture was taken at) shows a slight difference at the bottom of the main windows.

 

 

 

Overall I'd say it's very good and a thank you to Bachmann for further investigating the issue on the back of the content in this topic.

[bigherb]

Doesn't look right to me

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andy Y]

Doesn't look right to me

 

 

It depends where you position the lines. The base of the glazing on the main widows is a gnat's nut away from the lower lip of the door droplight (which has no surround).

[brushman47544]

Thanks Andy, it doesn't look as off as it did in the earlier images. It certainly won't stop me buying one, but I will reserve final judgement until I see this livery version produced http://www.flickr.com/photos/34800790@N04/5546971804/in/photolist-9saFsU-e8RSre-dGv63u-9xb7NY-ehC8f4-a4rQX4-a58hyF-9CjdYW-bU4D9i-9BCKjc-9BCSE8-bU4G7c-bF9TTs-bF9SRQ-bU4G48-gVRLdg-bU4CNr-bU4BMR-dgTw7B-fDCE7f-bF9Tfo-bU4CXR-bU4DeB-9wTGcF-9wTG6F-9wWFx1-gpbLuX-cgYCoC-9Y3ZP4-bsx5SR-dmhXoZ-akGKL3-akGKTo-akGKWU-ggWQfd-9QaEY8-dRHiw5-9wT9f4-eu4Mmf-eu1AQF-cgYCd3-cgYCjU-cgYCgE-dXVqFT-a5b5jW-gH1QJJ-7BdreK-8cLC2a-aTFMuX-cLV265-dRwo21

with the tell-tale cream band immediately below the windows.

 

What surprises me is that Bachmann doesn't include artwork tests on earlier production versions as it would help identify issues such as this - according to Bachmann's model development process artwork only starts after the tooling has been signed off.

[Andy Y]

What surprises me is that Bachmann doesn't include artwork tests on earlier production versions as it would help identify issues such as this - according to Bachmann's model development process artwork only starts after the tooling has been signed off.

 

That's largely the same for all manufacturers and some minor issues may not be apparent of evident until livery or deco samples are produced. It would lengthen the process to have every EP stage decorated (and marginally increase costs) but it shows how far RTR has come if we get down to this degree.

[BR(S)]

 

The livery needs some adjustment and the appearance of this was compounded on the B/G version by choosing a Cambridge allocated unit which had livery differences from others at the first class end. The livery sample reflected the photo but it's not necessarily correct for other units.

 

This is good news for me and was the point I focussed on when e-mailing Bachmann.

 

I think this is more representative of most of the class in blue/grey: http://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/Former-LMS-Lines/i-KbLKpTP/A

 

 

 

[SRman]

Looking at those excellent images Andy posted, the thing that strikes me most is that Bachmann appear to have doubled up on the raised rims around the windows. If you take the lines from the outside edges of the outer raised rims, they appear to match very closely to the real ones. It's that inner silver rim that seems to reduce the window sizes and also affects the apparent heights.

 

Perhaps Bachmann could print those silver rims a little thinner (they look to me to be printed onto the edges of the glazing, although I am open to correction here).

[Porcy Mane]

Looks like there was quite a bit of variation of where the bottom and top of the light grey started and finished on the prototype:

Compare these images:

 

53239    Inverkeithing

http://80srail.zenfo...C3FAA#h238c3faa

 

+ 53243 at Princes Street Gardens

http://80srail.zenfo...C3FAA#h35f44d96

Grey starts above door buffers (Below on the second coach) and the top ends a few inches higher than that in the image at post #24

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78974-decorated-samples-of-class-101/&do=findComment&comment=1239247

 

Makes me glad I model the green era.  

 

 

Porcy (edited to add another link)

 

 

 

[DropTheTap]

Looks like there was quite a bit of variation of where the bottom and top of the light grey started and finished on the prototype...

 

Agreed. Still haven't turned up anything that shows the grey above the sidelights as low as Bachmann have depicted it though.

 

Maybe I'm being overly- picky and this whole thing reminds me of the debate concerning same manufacturer's blue/ grey Mark 2 livery some years ago. I'll be having a 101 in plain blue but the blue/ grey livery makes the model look far less convincing to me.

 

As an aside, the ScR seem to have their own interpretation of certain liveries: the grey stripe in the pics to which you link seems less rounded at the corners and I can't see the white lining... but those issues might just be my eyes...

[Enterprisingwestern]

Looking at those excellent images Andy posted, the thing that strikes me most is that Bachmann appear to have doubled up on the raised rims around the windows. If you take the lines from the outside edges of the outer raised rims, they appear to match very closely to the real ones. It's that inner silver rim that seems to reduce the window sizes and also affects the apparent heights.

 

Perhaps Bachmann could print those silver rims a little thinner (they look to me to be printed onto the edges of the glazing, although I am open to correction here).

 

Who knows what Laserglaze might appear

 

Mike.

[Porcy Mane]

Who knows what Laserglaze might appear

 

So we'll be seeing some etched window surrounds (With opening vents???) that magically reduce the oversize rubber seals about the same time then?

P

[Enterprisingwestern]

So we'll be seeing some etched window surrounds (With opening vents???) that magically reduce the oversize rubber seals about the same time then?

P

 

I couldn't possibly comment.

Who knows what might turn up after the Mk1's.

 

Mike.

[Porcy Mane]

I couldn't possibly comment.

Who knows what might turn up after the Mk1's.

The 35t GLW tank chassis with a bit of Luck...

 

P

[royaloak]

Thanks Andy,

 

I wonder if part of the problem is (on the blue/grey one at least) that the grey finishes too far away from the roofline, I cant remember seeing a blue line between the grey panel and the yellow stripe.

 

Could it be that the windows are marginally too high on the body but it is made to look worse by the lower grey area.

[royaloak]

What surprises me is that Bachmann doesn't include artwork tests on earlier production versions as it would help identify issues such as this - according to Bachmann's model development process artwork only starts after the tooling has been signed off.

What happened to if it looks right it is right!

 

Unfortunately the B/G one just looks wrong.

[Porcy Mane]

I wonder if part of the problem is (on the blue/grey one at least) that the grey finishes too far away from the roofline, I cant remember seeing a blue line between the grey panel and the yellow stripe.

 

http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p174750032/h3f85f174#h3f85f174      

 

P