Decorated Samples of Class 101

[Gwiwer]

101s varied as we know.  Without the benefit of sighting a model I can only comment from the photos.  It appears to me that the Bachmann model has the door droplights modelled correctly at the top but coming down fractionally too far at the bottom placing them in line with the lower edge of the window frames.  That is incorrect; the door droplights did not reach that far down.

 

The front cab windows do appear correct so far as can be judged from photos and allowing for the normal angle-of-view distortions.

 

The destination blind on those I remember in service was flush with its glazing and therefore presented at the same angle as the rake of the upper cab front.  The model has it recessed and apparently vertical therefore appearing to be farther in at the bottom than the top.  That is also wrong.

 

One of the reference views I consulted is that displayed by Hattons :  http://www.ehattons.com/60855/Bachmann_Branchline_32_288_Class_101_2_car_DMU_in_BR_blue_Newcastle_Hexham_/StockDetail.aspx

 

I feel that shows the critical areas adequately and that if it were viewed alongside a blue model they would stand out.

 

Having said that I am in no doubt that the units will perform extremely well and they do look like a Met-Camm.  Just not quite as accurately as perhaps some of us had hoped.

[Legend]

They were for sale at Perth MRS, from Cheltenham models. Only saw the blue one. Price £145 reduced to £129 I think. I am aware of the latest Bachmann price rises, but seemed expensive for a 2 car unit to me. Easily resisted!

[MikeParkin65]

Given a medium sized loco is £60-£70 and a DMU is effectively two locos with one motor the price seems about right. Whether they will sell or not is another question, plenty of other DMU's from the same manufacturer currently available for between £70 and £100.

[Market65]

Hi, I've gone and made a purchase of one of the units today from Rails of Sheffield. The first 101 which was tried out would not run. There was success with the second unit. There is, upon investigation, more of that non-conductive grease on the power bogie, which until I cleaned it out, was causing the model to run jerkily.

Regarding those windows, I've been taking measurements, and there are various differences between this class 101 and the Lima model as expected. Please see image.. Please excuse my writing, but I hope that you can make out the various dimensions.

 

I've taken a couple of photo's of each car, and hope these might be of some interest.. This is the DTSL.. This is the DMBS. For those wanting the cars to couple together at a more scale distance, I found a coupling-bar off a class 150, and this is the result - . It will run around second or greater radius curves.

 

So, the conclusion, for now, is that this is not, sadly, the ultimate model of the class 101 DMU, but seems passable at two to three feet. I paid £127.46 for it.

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[Butler Henderson]

Given a medium sized loco is £60-£70 and a DMU is effectively two locos with one motor the price seems about right. Whether they will sell or not is another question, plenty of other DMU's from the same manufacturer currently available for between £70 and £100.

Um.. I would equate it more to a loco and a coach

[Sam Moss]

I think I'll stick with my Limby 101's for the time being, at least until the Bachmann ones come down in price when the box shifters want to get rid. It does appear though that Lima were more capable of producing tooling capable of fine moulding nearly 30 years ago than Bachmann have with this in 2014!

[Bernard Lamb]

I think I'll stick with my Limby 101's for the time being, at least until the Bachmann ones come down in price when the box shifters want to get rid. It does appear though that Lima were more capable of producing tooling capable of fine moulding nearly 30 years ago than Bachmann have with this in 2014!

Until you want one in blue or green.

The window sizes and positions might well be a nat's adrift but the rain strips are far better than it is possible to achieve by taking a knife to the Lima moulding. 

I have know idea of the size of the production run but I do suspect there will be less available than with previous DMU issues.

I also suspect that the perceived policy of clearing stock, after a certain period of time, will not be so common in future.

Bernard

[Legend]

Just thinking the Rapido /Locomotion APTE is £225 for what are essentially two 2 car dmus (the APTE has two power cars). This is for a limited edition high specification model with "flashing lights" tilting, close coupling . While not my cup of tea it does make £145 for a two car dmu look relatively poor value for money. Given the amount of 105s and 108s that are still knocking around at discounted prices, I'll hold off for a while, if not permanently! Actually I'd prefer a three car one anyway.

[45125]

Having had a good look at the blue offering , there does appear to be some glaring cock ups the exhaust pipe and silencers at van end do not look right, silencer being too low and short and the upper pipe being too long. Also the under frame detail is lacking in  RUG11 rectifier, however it does have the additional box that was fitted when the dynamos or AC8/RUG 11 equipment were removed.

[DropTheTap]

Just thinking the Rapido /Locomotion APTE is £225 for what are essentially two 2 car dmus (the APTE has two power cars). This is for a limited edition high specification model with "flashing lights" tilting, close coupling . While not my cup of tea it does make £145 for a two car dmu look relatively poor value for money. Given the amount of 105s and 108s that are still knocking around at discounted prices, I'll hold off for a while, if not permanently! Actually I'd prefer a three car one anyway.

 

Agreed completely. There are some beautiful bargain 105/ 108 models knocking around that will do just fine- I've no interest in mediocrity at twice the price.

[Ian Hargrave]

Agreed completely. There are some beautiful bargain 105/ 108 models knocking around that will do just fine- I've no interest in mediocrity at twice the price.

Ouch!

[Roy L S]

Not sure it is fair to compare prices of the Rapido APT-E and Bachmann 101 in that way?

 

As I understood it (please correct me if I am wrong) the APT is a one-off product and joint venture between Rapido and Locomotion Shildon who are the sole distributor. Obviously I am not privy to the commercial agreement's details but as there is no dealer network involved logically there is no dealer margin to factor in.

 

The 101 is distributed by Bachmann to the retail network so there is.

 

Hornby will be using a similar approach in direct-selling the Arnold N Gauge "Brighton Belle" much to the disappointment of some retailers.

 

It is entirely subjective because it isn't happening, but were Rapido to distribute their model via a retailer network there would very likely be more cost plus a dealer margin to factor in and I would suggest the cost to the consumer much higher.

 

I do not believe that any manufacturer has suggested they will adopt a solely direct selling approach, in point of fact I think Bachmann were quick to stress they would not and would continue to support and supply the retail model shop network.

 

So, sure, I guess Bachmann could (e.g.) make their 101 cheaper by only selling direct, as could others but that would (1) involve a huge investment in storage distribution and (2) effectively kill the retail model railway shop business.

 

Personally I am happy that Bachmann see things the way they do.

 

Regards

 

Roy

[brushman47544]

Hi, I've gone and made a purchase of one of the units today from Rails of Sheffield. The first 101 which was tried out would not run. There was success with the second unit. There is, upon investigation, more of that non-conductive grease on the power bogie, which until I cleaned it out, was causing the model to run jerkily.

 

Has anyone else found the non-conductive grease and has anyone contacted Bachmann as a result? It would be a shame in all the different liveries arrived in the shops like this. Bachmann handled the same problem with the Class 40s very well and I'm sure they would do so again with the 101s if necessary. For the time being I think I will put my pre-order of the green SYP version on hold until we know more. I don't want to have to send mine back to the UK from Portugal if by delaying any problem can be fixed.

[Fenman]

Not sure it is fair to compare prices of the Rapido APT-E and Bachmann 101 in that way?

 

As I understood it (please correct me if I am wrong) the APT is a one-off product and joint venture between Rapido and Locomotion Shildon who are the sole distributor. Obviously I am not privy to the commercial agreement's details but as there is no dealer network involved logically there is no dealer margin to factor in.

 

The 101 is distributed by Bachmann to the retail network so there is.

 

...

 

It is entirely subjective because it isn't happening, but were Rapido to distribute their model via a retailer network there would very likely be more cost plus a dealer margin to factor in and I would suggest the cost to the consumer much higher.

 

I do not believe that any manufacturer has suggested they will adopt a solely direct selling approach, in point of fact I think Bachmann were quick to stress they would not and would continue to support and supply the retail model shop network.

 

So, sure, I guess Bachmann could (e.g.) make their 101 cheaper by only selling direct, as could others but that would (1) involve a huge investment in storage distribution and (2) effectively kill the retail model railway shop business.

 

Personally I am happy that Bachmann see things the way they do. ...

 

I find this intriguing. What you seem to be suggesting is that those of us who buy direct are, in fact, paying a much higher price in order to subsidise that proportion of us who use model shops?

 

Since large numbers of us do not have ready access to a model shop, that sounds like a bit of hidden taxation is going on!

 

I suspect the main reason the APT-E is relatively much cheaper than a Bachmann DMU is because there is so little external detail to be hand-applied to the APT; the labour cost of this very smooth (in both senses) model must be a fraction of the labour cost of, eg, a Hornby Maunsell coach.

 

Paul

[Not Captain Kernow]

There is no need to cater for any variation in the tooling either which cuts a big chunk of costs out.

[Roy L S]

Paul,

 

Not sure if I am missing the point you are trying to make but if a manufacturer sells direct to the public then arguably that will cut out the dealer mark up and so (depending on the other costs they might incur) if sold at the same RRP as retailers, then logically they make more money. Same profit element (less any additional costs) but not divided between manufacturer and retailer OR alternatively (and this is my point) it gives them the opportunity to forego some of that margin and sell it cheaper (or more competitively if you prefer) as an exclusive model directly.

 

I am not sure where there is any hidden tax though, VAT will surely be payable on the price they actually sell it at and Corporation Tax on any enhancement to profit that the bigger margin might give them?

 

I do not understand what having ready access to a model shop has to do with the issue, most model shops cater for online ordering and mail order so I see no difference between that and ordering direct from a manufacturer (assuming they sell products direct to the public). The manufacturer is highly unlikely to undercut the retailers as a matter of routine.

 

However, if they retain sole distribution rights there is one price, the one you pay them direct, there is no alternative, no discount, no shopping around.

 

In any event as far as Bachmann are concerned it is an irrelevance as they do not sell direct. I was merely seeking to suggest reasons why the Rapido model can be sold at such a good price when compared to the RRP for the 101. But even then a quick search of Hattons website (Other retailers apply I am sure) shows that the 101 can be ordered for £127.46 - I doubt you will see any discount on the Rapido models!

 

What Not Captain Kernow says may well contribute as the tooling is for only a single prototype, but from what I have read this could be offset somewhat by the internal tilt mechanism and electronics which must surely contribute to the cost of paying someone to assemble it - the price of which is going up we are told!

 

Regards

 

Roy

[Fenman]

Paul,

 

Not sure if I am missing the point you are trying to make but if a manufacturer sells direct to the public then arguably that will cut out the dealer mark up and so (depending on the other costs they might incur) if sold at the same RRP as retailers, then logically they make more money. Same profit element (less any additional costs) but not divided between manufacturer and retailer OR alternatively (and this is my point) it gives them the opportunity to forego some of that margin and sell it cheaper (or more competitively if you prefer) as an exclusive model directly.

 

I am not sure where there is any hidden tax though, VAT will surely be payable on the price they actually sell it at and Corporation Tax on any enhancement to profit that the bigger margin might give them?

 

I do not understand what having ready access to a model shop has to do with the issue, most model shops cater for online ordering and mail order so I see no difference between that and ordering direct from a manufacturer (assuming they sell products direct to the public). The manufacturer is highly unlikely to undercut the retailers as a matter of routine.

 

However, if they retain sole distribution rights there is one price, the one you pay them direct, there is no alternative, no discount, no shopping around.

 

In any event as far as Bachmann are concerned it is an irrelevance as they do not sell direct. I was merely seeking to suggest reasons why the Rapido model can be sold at such a good price when compared to the RRP for the 101. But even then a quick search of Hattons website (Other retailers apply I am sure) shows that the 101 can be ordered for £127.46 - I doubt you will see any discount on the Rapido models!

 

What Not Captain Kernow says may well contribute as the tooling is for only a single prototype, but from what I have read this could be offset somewhat by the internal tilt mechanism and electronics which must surely contribute to the cost of paying someone to assemble it - the price of which is going up we are told!

 

Regards

 

Roy

 

I was making a flippant point.

 

Let us suppose that all sales are made direct by the manufacturers. According to your logic, which I support, everything would be offered cheaper to everyone because there is no dealer cost/profit to be added.

 

But now let us suppose that someone wants to set up a retail network, to operate alongside this direct sales operation. New costs are introduced, and the manufacturers increase their direct prices to create a "level playing field" with the retailers. That means everyone now has to pay a higher price, whether they buy direct or from a retailer. Which might be taken to mean that the people buying direct are now subsidising the people who like to buy from retailers (while also giving the manufacturers a higher margin).

 

 

Paul

[Ryde-on-time]

Not sure it is fair to compare prices of the Rapido APT-E and Bachmann 101 in that way?

 

As I understood it (please correct me if I am wrong) the APT is a one-off product and joint venture between Rapido and Locomotion Shildon who are the sole distributor. Obviously I am not privy to the commercial agreement's details but as there is no dealer network involved logically there is no dealer margin to factor in.

 

The 101 is distributed by Bachmann to the retail network so there is.

 

Hornby will be using a similar approach in direct-selling the Arnold N Gauge "Brighton Belle" much to the disappointment of some retailers.

 

It is entirely subjective because it isn't happening, but were Rapido to distribute their model via a retailer network there would very likely be more cost plus a dealer margin to factor in and I would suggest the cost to the consumer much higher.

 

I do not believe that any manufacturer has suggested they will adopt a solely direct selling approach, in point of fact I think Bachmann were quick to stress they would not and would continue to support and supply the retail model shop network.

 

So, sure, I guess Bachmann could (e.g.) make their 101 cheaper by only selling direct, as could others but that would (1) involve a huge investment in storage distribution and (2) effectively kill the retail model railway shop business.

 

Personally I am happy that Bachmann see things the way they do.

 

Regards

 

Roy

 

Rapido are the manufacturer and Locomotion at Shildon are the distributor, it just happens with this model that there is only one.

 

I therefore do not see that there is much of a difference between this model and one made by Bachmann. In fact I would guess there was a far greater market for an accurate class 101 which plenty of variations (2 or 3 car formations, various liveries) and potential models to offer to recoup the cost of the tooling

 

(The Hornby example is different as there is no distributor, only Hornby selling direct)

[Roy L S]

My understanding was that the APT E was an exclusive model being produced by Rapido in association with Locomotion who would be sole distributor. As far as I know we are not (nor should we be) privy to the commercial details of any arrangement in terms of who is financing what and what margins are attributable where, but it is still not a fair comparison with a Bachmann 101 released for general retail sale which was the original point at issue.

 

That said, on reflection I do accept the point that the Hornby "Belle" is different again, but there remains the same issue of exclusivity, total control of pricing and by dint of that lack of any retailer discounts.

 

Recovery of tooling costs over bigger runs is a fair point as far as the 101 is concerned but it is surely only one part of the issue? The others, as we have been repeatedly reminded lately relate to rapidly increasing labour, raw materials and transportation costs, all of these being variable and increasing with volumes produced.

 

Anyway, I guess the bottom line as far as any model is concerned is that if it is deemed too expensive people will simply not buy it, and we will find that out soon enough!

 

Regards

 

Roy

[DropTheTap]

Ouch!

 

Yes, I did come across a little harsh, apologies.

 

The intent of my post remains however: I picked up a really nice all blue 2- car 108, as well as a 105 for a little over 60 quid each. Both are very reasonable representations and may be used on my mid- '70s LM layout equally appropriately. I can see very obvious flaws with the new 101 and it really is almost twice the price (127 pounds plus change at Hattons). Given that there are very viable alternatives, at that price I don't really *need* it.

 

Come to think of it, there can't be too many areas where you couldn't realistically run a 105 or 108 of some variant or livery as an alternative to a 101 apart from their later years. Even then you could always run a 14x or 15x...

[DropTheTap]

 

Anyway, I guess the bottom line as far as any model is concerned is that if it is deemed too expensive people will simply not buy it, and we will find that out soon enough!

 

 

To buy or not to buy often comes down to a combination of price, accuracy and desirability. I would very much like to own a couple of 101s, therefore I am desirous of purchase. If they were somewhat cheaper in price, yet still possessing of the documented flaws per this thread, I would probably partake. If they did not suffer from said errors but retained their present RRP, I would again probably partake.

 

If the model is desirable to me, I can live with a degree of inaccuracy at the right price. I am also prepared to pay a premium for something gobsmacking.

[Fenman]

On a thread not far from here, a few months ago, people went to great lengths to defend Bachmanns price rises and lowering of quality as being not just inevitable, but acceptable, if not even desirable...

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85287-Bachmann-why-price-increases-are-necessary/

 

Now just 1 model release later... 10 pages of its too expensive, too inaccurate too unacceptable.

 

Fickle bunch in here aren't we...

 

Not me, guv; I defended price increases for producing more of the same standard, but I absolutely did not defend any "lowering of quality" alongside them. For the avoidance of doubt, for me "lowering of quality" does not include things like replacing hand-fitted door handles with moulded-on ones: I was content with those on Bachmann coaches and would not be at all unhappy if Hornby introduced them on all its models. But "lowering of quality" definitely means getting inaccurate relationships between key elements like windows and doors, and that is not acceptable to me.

 

I didn't much like 101s in the flesh (as a kid, it was always a disappointment to encounter one of those or a 105 at the platform instead of the usual 37+Mk2s) but I'd have happily bought a couple if they were of the same standard as the 105s. Alas, at the moment I'm thinking this model may not be worth having if it's got significant errors. The price is what it is.

 

Paul

[Southernman46]

Shocking - fancy producing a model with the wheels 2mm too close together for this price...................I shan't be getting one............

 

oh hang on...................

 

[Bernard Lamb]

It does make me smile when people quote errors to a scale inch, but nobody has made a comment about pipes that end in mid air.

By now a typical Bachmann feature that has almost become a trade mark.

Bernard

[Roy L S]

We are talking about a scale inch??

 

Let me see, that's what, a third of a millimetre???

 

I have just looked at the ruler on my desk to be clear in my own mind what that amounts to and all I can say is that some people have exceptional vision to be able to discern that by just looking at a model!

 

Roy