2014 Hornby Announcements

[Accurascale Fran]

 Taking the Blue Pullman as an example. There was a contemporary model of it to then-current rtr standards, plus the Kitmaster for the "serious" modellers.

There was much frothing for a new model three or four(?) years ago resulting in the very nice Bachmann one. Some must have sold, but there was much whingeing because it wasn't the full eight-car WR set, and not all cars were produced. Now they seem to be remaindered at several shops so presumably there wasn't the demand in the end.

I have no idea what proportion of Hornby's market we represent, but I suspect it's not that much.

 

Ed

 

I think you'll find that the ones remaindered at shops wears an obscure livery variation that many believe did not run in service. Try getting a Naking Blue one. Not available for love nor money in many places and attracting a premium on Ebay. (Mind you, I know a shop that has one going cheap...) 

[Waverley West]

ooh Carlisle 1980s - that would have been good to see.

 

I did give it serious thought, partly because it's my local main line station. In the end, the range of good quality RTR diesels then becoming available won over the ageing Lima and Hornby AC electrics that were, and still are, available was a major factor in my decision.

 

It was a classic case of supply-led demand, which is a point we are making here I think. 

[Legend]

On AC Electrics. I think there are a couple of factors at play here.

 

While people "can get away with" running a third rail emu on normal track , I'm sure there are lots of CEPS, VEP (well maybe not a VEP as it struggles to go round corners)BILS and now HAPS running without visible power , running an AC Electric without wires is a bit more obvious. I don't mind because I play trains . I have a GNER 91, Virgin 90 and the latest Bachmann 85. I'm sure this will be abhorrent to "serious" modellers which is part of the issue. So they need the knitting

 

If you put the knitting up it restricts your period of operation, you can hardly run your brand new WW1 Star and clerestories. Without knitting you can change period more easily or suspend disbelief, whatevers easier.

 

The market for a new 90/91/92/86/87 is somewhat spoiled by the fact that Hornby already have models there. They don't see the need to upgrade and they represent a barrier to entry for anybody new wanting to model an ac electric . Presumably this was why Bachmann went for an 85.  They might have had more success with a multicoloured 87 or 90.

 

Heljan just made a mess of the 86

[The Stationmaster]

 

I dont have access to that sort of information but if they are turning in that direction then that nicely backs up the very idea of it that I touched on earlier vis a vis - if the market is there but not enough for volume sales (as per Coachmanns post) why not produce new ACs in small batches.

 

 

Selling them in small batches doesn't affect the cost of investment, it merely reduces the return. Hornby is not in the market to appease minority or specialist interests but to maximise return on investment for its sharehoilders. Thus all this frothing about such minority or special interest models will have no effect. . . . it is the smaller manufacturers such as Heljan or Dapol which have different strategies to whom such expectations should turn.

 

JE

 

And consider how the market works, or is tending to work at the moment.  Although not absolutely the case it is, I think, not unreasonable to assume that the market for more obscure steam era classes is partially driven by those who knew them wanting models and by those who model a specific prototype area wanting them.  Those of us who knew the steam age on BR, even in its final years, are now likely to be over 50 or of pensionable age, with either a small mortgage or none at all, owning most of the things we are ever likely to want to own and possibly enjoying the last of the really good workplace pension schemes (which we paid for by accepting reduced salaries/wages in our younger years).  Notwithstanding happenings in the wider economy this group is the one probably more likely than younger folk to have disposable income and money to spend on hobbies and holidays.

 

Thus, if I want a reminder of a loco I travelled behind back in 1960, in the not too distant future I'll be able to buy one (a Dukedog) and I've had plenty of time to put money aside from my disposable income in order to pay for it.  As it happens I can also remember the AL Classes when all of them were new but none interest me as models, however the next generation below mine might see them in a different light and want one - but can that generation find, probably, about £150ish to pay for it as readily as my generation can?  Heljan are scoring fairly well with oddball, unsuccessful, diesels from the Modernisation era but that too is something that could well appeal to my generation - which in many cases is mortgage free.

 

Markets work in strange ways but while there might be a demand for whatever there not only has to be sufficient demand but it also has to be real demand - i.e. enough people will put their money where there mouth is.  If the latter is not borne out by experience then effectively it will kill the market for whatever it might be.  Some manufacturers will take the risk; some will work to the Rapido model; and some will be more cautious and look at present & past sales figures, consult their retailers, look at polls (although I think they can be very misleading) and customer surveys - but above all every one of them will be doing exactly the same as we do, and looking for the best return their money can get, especially in current economic circumstances.

[7013]

Saint would have been nice Craig W #480, however it has been done in the past albeit crudely, whereas the 47xx has never been done RTR.

Let's have both!

[frobisher]

Look at the discounts Hattons are offering, though - Virgin-livery 87 at 44 quid. That obviously hasn't sold well! Also Freightliner 90 and GNER 91 (inc DVT) at 54.

You're making a false connection there. Hattons are selling these items at a greater discount than they normally would over RRP. It does not necessarily mean they bought a huge stock they need to now clear, it could easily mean that they had additional stock offered to them by Bachmann at a more favourable discount. It's also notable that they only list electrics from the current catalogue, which means they've obviously cleared the previous "poor selling" AC electrics, and there are two more 87's forthcoming from Farish this year. These things obviously sell well enough when suitably discounted

[frobisher]

Hornby pricing continues to mystify me, I don't think enough has been done to differentiate between the Railroad and standard lines. And why create new model for the Railroad range? I thought the idea was to cascade olde models down into the Railroad to both provide less expensive models for novices and to maximize income from obsolete models.

Not quite - the requirement was to produce lower cost models for those content with models devoid of some of the bells and whistles of the main range. They initially serviced this with cascading older tooling down as it became obsolete (or not worth putting into the main range in the case of some Lima items).

 

It makes perfect sense to produce new models for the range if they fit the criteria (i.e. can be produced in a cost effective manner by a reduced finishing overhead). You can clearly see that the Railroad MK1s released this year have less finishing on them even compared to the main range MK1s (Triang Tooling) they have now replaced.

 

Hence the Railroad A3, Hall, A1 "Tornado" etc.

[298]

On AC Electrics. I think there are a couple of factors at play here.

 

 

While people "can get away with" running a third rail emu on normal track , I'm sure there are lots of CEPS, VEP (well maybe not a VEP as it struggles to go round corners)BILS and now HAPS running without visible power , running an AC Electric without wires is a bit more obvious. I don't mind because I play trains . I have a GNER 91, Virgin 90 and the latest Bachmann 85. I'm sure this will be abhorrent to "serious" modellers which is part of the issue. So they need the knitting

 

If you put the knitting up it restricts your period of operation, you can hardly run your brand new WW1 Star and clerestories. Without knitting you can change period more easily or suspend disbelief, whatevers easier.

Are we talking about train sets, or serious model railways.....? The former may only need a token bit of electrification as per a 50yr old Triang catalogue, but the latter is a whole minefield, as apart from a few raised bridges and contemporary buildings, the wires went up over traditional steam railway track formations, rationalisation came later (btw, AC electrics and Edwardian GWR steam are my perfect mix....!).

 

 

 

The market for a new 90/91/92/86/87 is somewhat spoiled by the fact that Hornby already have models there. They don't see the need to upgrade and they represent a barrier to entry for anybody new wanting to model an ac electric . Presumably this was why Bachmann went for an 85. They might have had more success with a multicoloured 87 or 90.

 

Heljan just made a mess of the 86

Agree, but one point not mentioned so far is although the Bachmann 85 has done well for impulse sales, volume sales won't be sustained until the whole picture is represented by other classes to the same standard. Hornby might have ticked that box in the past, but the fact that their range never saw even the most basic of improvements or commonality of parts proved that their popularity wained and have quietly been dropped. Good AC's will fly off the shelves once future releases are announced. When is the Bachmann 2014 news coming out....?

[Waverley West]

On another topic altogether, I can't help looking at the new Inter-City HST and coaches and thinking that the pale executive grey looks, well, the correct shade. Do my eyes deceive me or has Hornby finally taken this on board and corrected it? It might bear no resemblance to the final colour of course, but here's hoping.

[APOLLO]

 It might not yet be too obvious but there seems to be a product rethink going on in Hornby Apollo.s future purchases in order to respond to the market  future wallet thickness (or lack thereof).

 

 

Honestly, I've been having a deep rethink of the hobby last couple of days. I'm certainly NOT leaving the hobby, but gone will be the days of purchasing on a whim. The Railroad Crosti is one I would like, but it's just to expensive for a Railroad model. Seeing I have 4 Railroad 9F's, I may just convert one as per a recent mag article (can't remember which).

 

I will still buy the odd loco, but not anymore "because it's nice" - The Heljan Lion I'm getting for Xmas will probably be the last "don't really need" loco. A couple of Baccy Pom Poms  next year and I'm nearly done (yes we have all heard that before) !!!!.

 

How many stored kits etc have we all got that we don't start because a nice RTR model has come out - well that's a new year resolution - dig em out and make a start - they're PAID FOR !!

 

Just reading January "Model Rail" mag. The new product reviews, Neo Airbrush "a little expensive" at £130, Bachman diesel shed "poor glazing fit & expensive" at £86.95, Ancorton laser cut unpainted barn  "a tad pricey" at £37.95. Those are not my comments - they are the reviewers.

 

Another little thing, electrification warning flashes - where are they on late crest steam models - non existent in most cases. I have only a couple steam of steam locos with them factory applied, one being an old tender drive Hornby 9F. The Baccy diesels and DMU's have them, not the steam locos, well even my Lima green diesels have them. Where are they on the £100+ models ?. Yes I could (and probably may one day get round to) adding them myself - but why should I - most late crest steam should have them. Yes they are a date thing, started in 1959, universally applied by 1961.

 

Don't get me on about the useless modern small coupling (try pushing a rake of 10 or more coaches fitted with em) !!.

 

And finally (as per Model Rail) - the fallplate and tender coupling gap on that star makes it look like a toy - never mind the spokes !!!!

 

If the manufacturers want us to pay top dollar then they need to get the basics better, a hell of a lot better.

 

Brit15

[Dunsignalling]

Honestly, I've been having a deep rethink of the hobby last couple of days. I'm certainly NOT leaving the hobby, but gone will be the days of purchasing on a whim. The Railroad Crosti is one I would like, but it's just to expensive for a Railroad model. Seeing I have 4 Railroad 9F's, I may just convert one as per a recent mag article (can't remember which).

 

I will still buy the odd loco, but not anymore "because it's nice" - The Heljan Lion I'm getting for Xmas will probably be the last "don't really need" loco. A couple of Baccy Pom Poms  next year and I'm nearly done (yes we have all heard that before) !!!!.

 

How many stored kits etc have we all got that we don't start because a nice RTR model has come out - well that's a new year resolution - dig em out and make a start - they're PAID FOR !!

 

Just reading January "Model Rail" mag. The new product reviews, Neo Airbrush "a little expensive" at £130, Bachman diesel shed "poor glazing fit & expensive" at £86.95, Ancorton laser cut unpainted barn  "a tad pricey" at £37.95. Those are not my comments - they are the reviewers.

 

Another little thing, electrification warning flashes - where are they on late crest steam models - non existent in most cases. I have only a couple steam of steam locos with them factory applied, one being an old tender drive Hornby 9F. The Baccy diesels and DMU's have them, not the steam locos, well even my Lima green diesels have them. Where are they on the £100+ models ?. Yes I could (and probably may one day get round to) adding them myself - but why should I - most late crest steam should have them. Yes they are a date thing, started in 1959, universally applied by 1961.

 

Don't get me on about the useless modern small coupling (try pushing a rake of 10 or more coaches fitted with em) !!.

 

And finally (as per Model Rail) - the fallplate and tender coupling gap on that star makes it look like a toy - never mind the spokes !!!!

 

If the manufacturers want us to pay top dollar then they need to get the basics better, a hell of a lot better.

 

Brit15

I stopped buying "wide of interest" locos ages ago but I will be slipping a Lanky 2-4-2T and a Dukedog under the wire.......

 

Totally agree about the kits but not the elecrifiication flashes. It's much easier to add them if they are needed than to remove them if they aren't.

 

"Late crest" started to appear in 1956 and, with rapid withdrawals taking place in the early sixties, many late crest locos would have run without electrification flashes for far longer than they carried them.

 

John

['CHARD]

I would disagree, we are tallking about the modern day equivalent of LMS pacifics, with variations of liveries and some of the best names ever carried by modern traction. At the end of the day your right that many steam locos are over looked but I am not talking about one off types of engine here. This is the stuff that speeded up the whole WCML until BR forgot to spend any money on it in the 90s (Were not allowed to really being the truth).

 

Not really the modern day equivalent, as those are the Pendolini.  And I fail to see how a humming set of wire coils plus some fancy switchgear and a few rectifiers has any of the romance of the self-propelled LMS pacifics.

 

Names and liveries just don't do it for me. Nor does speed as an end in itself.

[Dunsignalling]

 Taking the Blue Pullman as an example. There was a contemporary model of it to then-current rtr standards, plus the Kitmaster for the "serious" modellers.

There was much frothing for a new model three or four(?) years ago resulting in the very nice Bachmann one. Some must have sold, but there was much whingeing because it wasn't the full eight-car WR set, and not all cars were produced. Now they seem to be remaindered at several shops so presumably there wasn't the demand in the end.

I have no idea what proportion of Hornby's market we represent, but I suspect it's not that much.

 

Ed

All the remaindered Blue Pullmans I've seen are the less attractive version (my opinion) with the yellow ends, the one in the original style seems to have sold out pretty thoroughly.

 

The same thing happens to at least one livery variation on most models.

 

I was not surprised Bachmann went for the 6-Car Midland unit in preference to the 8-Car WR type - how many of us are fortunate enough to have layouts big enough for such train lengths?  Making both was not an option as they were only superficially similar.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

 

I have no idea what proportion of Hornby's market we represent, but I suspect it's not that much.

 

Ed

If that's the case, why did they make the Star?

 

To the uninitiated (especially if they are under 65) it's as near as dammit the same as the Castle they already produced.

 

John

[sub39h]

On another topic altogether, I can't help looking at the new Inter-City HST and coaches and thinking that the pale executive grey looks, well, the correct shade. Do my eyes deceive me or has Hornby finally taken this on board and corrected it? It might bear no resemblance to the final colour of course, but here's hoping.

 Even the old HST R2702 had the correct beige in the photograph (see link below), and so did the photos of the recent release of Mk2s even tho they have that horrible custard yellow. I do sincerely hope Hornby have corrected it and I have put in a preorder but we will have to wait and see.  

 

HST: http://www.arcadiarail.co.uk/products/images/Hornby_R2702.jpg

 

Mk2: http://www.buffersmodelrailways.com/content/img/lib/lge/6852.jpg

[manna]

G'Day Gents

 

Some nice new locos for the Eastern region fans, but it comes down to price...........WOT no railroad version, of the J15,D16 and K1 ??

 

manna

[hornbyandbf3fan]

G'Day Gents

 

Some nice new locos for the Eastern region fans, but it comes down to price...........WOT no railroad version, of the J15,D16 and K1 ??

 

manna

I thought that as well, seems a bit odd as they hyped it up last year.

[ThaneofFife]

OK - no to volume sales but sticking with that line of thought then and the market being there, does anybody else see an opportunity for small batch sales of said locos in the same vein as the recently announced Sarah Siddons or is there a million and one variables I have overlooked using that comparison? 

 

If I'm right then that takes the discussion out of the Hornby 2014 release thread really......given that they dont really go for the small batch stuff.

 

 

Selling them in small batches doesn't affect the cost of investment, it merely reduces the return. Hornby is not in the market to appease minority or specialist interests but to maximise return on investment for its sharehoilders. Thus all this frothing about such minority or special interest models will have no effect. . . . it is the smaller manufacturers such as Heljan or Dapol which have different strategies to whom such expectations should turn.

 

 

 

See above

 

 

I dont have access to that sort of information but if they are turning in that direction then that nicely backs up the very idea of it that I touched on earlier vis a vis - if the market is there but not enough for volume sales (as per Coachmanns post) why not produce new ACs in small batches.

 

 

Selling them in small batches doesn't affect the cost of investment, it merely reduces the return. Hornby is not in the market to appease minority or specialist interests but to maximise return on investment for its sharehoilders. Thus all this frothing about such minority or special interest models will have no effect. . . . it is the smaller manufacturers such as Heljan or Dapol which have different strategies to whom such expectations should turn.

 

JE

 

And consider how the market works, or is tending to work at the moment.  Although not absolutely the case it is, I think, not unreasonable to assume that the market for more obscure steam era classes is partially driven by those who knew them wanting models and by those who model a specific prototype area wanting them.  Those of us who knew the steam age on BR, even in its final years, are now likely to be over 50 or of pensionable age, with either a small mortgage or none at all, owning most of the things we are ever likely to want to own and possibly enjoying the last of the really good workplace pension schemes (which we paid for by accepting reduced salaries/wages in our younger years).  Notwithstanding happenings in the wider economy this group is the one probably more likely than younger folk to have disposable income and money to spend on hobbies and holidays.

 

Thus, if I want a reminder of a loco I travelled behind back in 1960, in the not too distant future I'll be able to buy one (a Dukedog) and I've had plenty of time to put money aside from my disposable income in order to pay for it.  As it happens I can also remember the AL Classes when all of them were new but none interest me as models, however the next generation below mine might see them in a different light and want one - but can that generation find, probably, about £150ish to pay for it as readily as my generation can?  Heljan are scoring fairly well with oddball, unsuccessful, diesels from the Modernisation era but that too is something that could well appeal to my generation - which in many cases is mortgage free.

 

Markets work in strange ways but while there might be a demand for whatever there not only has to be sufficient demand but it also has to be real demand - i.e. enough people will put their money where there mouth is.  If the latter is not borne out by experience then effectively it will kill the market for whatever it might be.  Some manufacturers will take the risk; some will work to the Rapido model; and some will be more cautious and look at present & past sales figures, consult their retailers, look at polls (although I think they can be very misleading) and customer surveys - but above all every one of them will be doing exactly the same as we do, and looking for the best return their money can get, especially in current economic circumstances.

 

 

I would be interested to know if manufacturers really sit down and analyse the profiles of its customers including considerations of levels of disposable income when deciding on what models to bring to market - if they went on my current disposable income then I wouldnt even get to see a Class 03 being released 

 

Sometimes these things can be over thought and rather than continue to clog this thread up with a sub-debate about whether we can expect new ACs, maybe a new thread ought to be started if sufficient continued interest in the subject matter allows?  Personally I think Ive said my whack (along with a fair few others) and suggest that its a good time to move on rather than get entwined in circles.

[robmcg]

These models are from the now-vanished 'design-expensive but comparatively cheap to build' era of ten years ago, and (as predicted) Hornby is now faced with the extra cost because of significantly higher wages in assembly. In retrospect, Hornby will wish not to have introduced silly things like opening doors and working fans, but it's too late to re-engineer that era of models now. On the plus side, it's reassurring to see Hornby has been able to re-use its Sanda Kan tooling.

 

This is worth repeating. The models which do carry high labour input, and I am unsure which of the last ten-years-worth of Hornby 00 main range models are worst in this respect, or best, depending on point-of-view, are likely to become difficult to keep in production without prices over going £150.

 

I am thinking of the Britannia, Bulleid rebuilt light Pacific, B1, A3 and others which appear to have a lot of hand-applied detail, and are to me the finest 00 BR steam-era RTR models ever, with some of the new offerings like the DoG and Cock o' the North being extremely nice but not quite up there with those I listed. I see a glazed cab version of the DoG in the 2014 list and that's good, a concession to those who like such detail and lamented the solid smokebox handles on GWR tanks...   Hornby DO listen    usually.

 

It remains to be seen how production and sales of the very best Hornby models will go in 2014... and I agree with others here that seeing some Sanda Kan-era tooling still in use is most encouraging. Wouldn't it be nice to see a permanently coupled unrebuilt Bulleids with a good detail pack again... that is just as of old, route discs, front steps, brake rods, and maybe even cylinder drains this time? Hard to see sales being very great with a RRP of £150 though...

 

These thoughts are a bit random, as I unpack a s/h DCC-fitted Hattons-weathered 70010 Britannia which has several loose detail parts from transit by air packet and courier, and a cursed 4-pin plug...  but superb detail notwithstanding. It cost me £132 including tracked air packet 10-day delivery. No doubt photos to come.

 

Also of note is the preponderance of people in this thread lamenting the lack of disposable income in the UK at least, and it was pointed out by Stationmaster that many buyer of BR steam are freehold home owners near or in retirement, 55-65yrs old, and I am 'one of those' but I still would change my buying habits if faced with more than a 25% increase.

 

All credit to Hornby for taking the risks they do.

 

Rob

[The Stationmaster]

If that's the case, why did they make the Star?

 

To the uninitiated (especially if they are under 65) it's as near as dammit the same as the Castle they already produced.

 

John

 

If you have someone who offers you full research facilities on the real thing, plus possibly access to drawings and maybe even photos. plus they undertake to buy 1,000 of the whatever would you look that sort of gift horse in the mouth especially when that 1,000 is probably going to cover your basic tooling costs?

[Boco_D1]

I'm pleased to see the j15 and the d16 and the great goodbye has already got my wallet trembling and I echo the responses of it would be nice to some more pre 1948 coaches. On the bitter subject of prices well they've been uping year by year just dig out an old copy of the modelling magazines and look at the ads in them, oh those where the days. I agree in comparrison to previous years and model types some prices seem rather heavy and i'm sure the if's and but's of the cause can be discused until the cows come home but my main concern with prices is convincing Mrs Boco to buy me these models for my birthday

[Nedrahn]

Actually the Q1s worked on the Sheppy Island light railway, the Hawkhurst branch and indeed were used on the Medway Valley Lines too. They did turn up in all sorts of places! Really were a go anywhere loco.

Did Q1s work on the Sheppey Light? I'm sure I've seen photos of them on the Sheppey branch to Sheerness, but I don't recall ever seeing a photo of one on the Light to Leysdown. That said, I've seen a photo of an E at Sheerness East, which is bizarre enough, so I could accept a Q1 on the Light. There was a Stirling Q on the Light for a while (might even have been a Q1, Wainwright style).

 

Going back to the previous post about Q1s, I don't think the drivers would have seen them as the equivalent of the freight sloggers mentioned. It's about stopping power as much as haulage power. My late neighbour, a former steam driver, told me some hairy stories of Q1s, downhill runs and long (for the Southern) unfitted freight trains.

 

The new 700 makes me smile. Earlier this year I picked one of my unbuilt kits at random and decided to build it. What have I been working on? Why a superheated 700, of course. I've also been working on an H Class, so guess what Bachmann will be announcing. My next build will probably be a pair of Cardeans. Caley fans, get ready for Hornby's 2015 programme...

 

Actually, feeble attempts at humour aside, the above doesn't bother me. I get pleasure from building kits, especially trying to save locos that have been built badly. Superdetail and perfection aren't for me, but neither is chequebook modelling. We're all individuals and take what we want out of the hobby, a fact that some people should remember.

[Mikkel]

Some years ago I remember running my rake of Hornby Clerestory Coaches finished in Midland Livery hauled by a Bachmann Jinty in early LMS Crimson Lake Livery (a livery it has carried in preservation) on the Club Layout at an exhibition. I was asked which kits I had used to build the coaches! The point is that from normal viewing distance on a layout they looked quite convincing in spite of the large couplings! Food for thought there I feel!

 

I actually prefer those short old clerestories to the current long ones. The old ones have real moulded panels and more "clerestory charisma" somehow :-) 

[brian777999]

I actually prefer those short old clerestories to the current long ones. The old ones have real moulded panels and more "clerestory charisma" somehow :-) 

 

I quite agree that they look great. However, I have been told on a previous thread on RMWEB that they do not resemble any coaches that the Midland or LMS ever owned.

[robmcg]

Actually now that the dust has settled somewhat since message 1 by Andy Y  I think I can safely say that to me the D16 is beautiful and will look great, the 700 will be good, especially if as well made as the T9 (and without traction issues), the J15 will always have a smallish following, ...it might have been a toss up with a J21? And the continuation of large express engines is planned, and any number of coaches. 

 

But mostly, I am very relieved that Hornby are continuing to produce quality models.