Washout at Dawlish

[bgman]

Would a Voyager being hauled shut down/dead in tow behind a Thunderbird loco be able to be hauled through the sea spray,

and then on arrival at Exeter or Newton Abbot be restarted and go away as normal.

Or would the salt water render the set incapable without drying it out, thus rendering a significant part of the fleet in need of Thunderbird haulage everywhere for the rest of the day?

 

 

 

cheers

 

Just whip a few tarpaulins over the roofs and they'd be fine ! 

 

Salty Ole Sea Dawg 

[royaloak]

 Some capacity exists some of the time aboard alternative GWR services.  But not when the next train is a 143, 150 or worse a 153.  Some Exeter - Plymouth duties are so formed (though not solo 153s over the banks).  

 

Oh yes there is, Monday to Friday 2P93 1550 Exeter to Plymouth forms 2E46 1735 Plymouth to Exeter and is booked a single 153, its 'not quick' going up Hemerdon!

[Captain Kernow]

Would a Voyager being hauled shut down/dead in tow behind a Thunderbird loco be able to be hauled through the sea spray,

and then on arrival at Exeter or Newton Abbot be restarted and go away as normal.

Or would the salt water render the set incapable without drying it out, thus rendering a significant part of the fleet in need of Thunderbird haulage everywhere for the rest of the day?

 

 

 

cheers

The previous Sea Wall Method of Working document did allow for this, back in the days when we had the services of a Virgin Class 57. I can't recall whether there were any failures once the loco-hauled set had got to Exeter or Newton Abbot, though, but it was certainly better than being dumped on the platform at Exeter or Newton Abbot, or, worse still, being marooned on a failed Voyager in the middle of the Sea Wall, with all power failed, no air in the system resulting in door seals deflating and actually letting sea water into the vestibules.

[Captain Kernow]

All that was available for onward travel was a two car unit which clearly insufficient for a full to bursting Voyager. The other option was a Penzance bound HST a hour later which also turned out to be pretty full even after the Exeter passengers alighted.

That is the usual consequence of terminating a Voyager short (unless XC choose to terminate the train at Bristol instead, which I have also known happen).

 

This sends the local FGW/GWR staff absolutely mad with frustration, as not only do their own passengers have to put up with all the added delay and inconvenience, the local station staff are also those who have to handle the whole 'customer relations' thing on the platform.

[royaloak]

I think the problem would be that at the moment they only have 800's and no 802's.  The leasing and warranty conditions will I suspect be totally different.   Thus I don't expect to see an 800 on test on the seawall in a storm unless someone puts up a rather large indemnity.  However if Hatachi have given an assurance as above then no doubt  the 802's will be tested.

 

Jamie

I thought they were going to be treated as one fleet now that the 800s (or which ever ones it is) have had bigger fuel tanks fitted and other modifications to standardise them, that was the 'excuse' why the GWR specced ones didnt/couldnt have a standard class buffet!

[royaloak]

That is the usual consequence of terminating a Voyager short (unless XC choose to terminate the train at Bristol instead, which I have also known happen).

 

This sends the local FGW/GWR staff absolutely mad with frustration, as not only do their own passengers have to put up with all the added delay and inconvenience, the local station staff are also those who have to handle the whole 'customer relations' thing on the platform.

And from the Customers point of view its GWRs fault that there havent been any arrangements made for them to be carried forward, hence why XC couldnt give a <oops> about it.

[Rivercider]

That is the usual consequence of terminating a Voyager short (unless XC choose to terminate the train at Bristol instead, which I have also known happen).

 

This sends the local FGW/GWR staff absolutely mad with frustration, as not only do their own passengers have to put up with all the added delay and inconvenience, the local station staff are also those who have to handle the whole 'customer relations' thing on the platform.

The planned termination of a XC service at Bristol was shown on the XC website one day earlier in the week, (I think it was the Manchester - Paignton booked 11.15  off Bristol, which at least gave an option of transferring to the GW Paddington - Paignton HST booked 11.47 off Bristol). There was also a Paignton - North service shown to start from Bristol though I can not remember which one,

 

cheers

Edited February 5, 2017 by Rivercider

[brianusa]

All very fine to discuss this situation from behind a laptop or whatever but what about those who are inconvenienced, stranded and upset about the lack of service and interest from the TOC.  The average passenger doesn't give a hoot for the penny pinching money men who go home at five PM and forgets the problems they  have incurred; he just wants to get to his destination safely and in a timely manner.  There once was a time before our PPPMM, when there was always a spare loco or carriages to accomplish any situation instead of some two car DMU which is totally inadequate.  The customer sees this and wonders why there is so much apparent chaos, real or imagined on the railways today.

 

Brian.

[Re6/6]

An 'agree' isn't enough here Brian...'very well put' is more like it.

[Captain Kernow]

All very fine to discuss this situation from behind a laptop or whatever but what about those who are inconvenienced, stranded and upset about the lack of service and interest from the TOC.  The average passenger doesn't give a hoot for the penny pinching money men who go home at five PM and forgets the problems they  have incurred; he just wants to get to his destination safely and in a timely manner.  There once was a time before our PPPMM, when there was always a spare loco or carriages to accomplish any situation instead of some two car DMU which is totally inadequate.  The customer sees this and wonders why there is so much apparent chaos, real or imagined on the railways today.

 

Brian.

I found out from a discussion with former colleagues last night that the complacent suits in Swindon are now actually planning the implementation of the more restrictive Level 2 Working some 24 hours in advance, from their desks/telephone conference ether. Normally these decisions are left to the experienced PW supervisor on the ground, who can actually see the conditions for himself. It is also not normal to plan to go straight to Level 2, a period of Level 1 Working is normally applied first, but either way, it's the role of the PW man on the site to make the final decision.

 

In the event, I understand that they put Level 2 Working in 'as instructed', only for the PW Supervisor half an hour later or so to say 'boleaucks to this, there's not need for this, we can resume normal working'.

[Gwiwer]

All very fine to discuss this situation from behind a laptop or whatever but what about those who are inconvenienced, stranded and upset about the lack of service and interest from the TOC.  The average passenger doesn't give a hoot for the penny pinching money men who go home at five PM and forgets the problems they  have incurred; he just wants to get to his destination safely and in a timely manner.  There once was a time before our PPPMM, when there was always a spare loco or carriages to accomplish any situation instead of some two car DMU which is totally inadequate.  The customer sees this and wonders why there is so much apparent chaos, real or imagined on the railways today.

 

Brian.

 

 

Very well put and echoing some of the points I (think were) made in my post above.

 

Whether one pays £10 for a train and date-specific ticket with seat reservation included or whether one walks up to the ticket office and asks for a single from A to B which may involve the highest "open" fare on the books and no reserved seat the customer passenger wishes to be taken from origin to destination in the most expeditious manner possible.  Usually that is on one direct train.  It is already widely accepted that once a change is involved the journey becomes less attractive.  Joe Public expects trains to run through almost any form of bad weather and is unlikely to understand that one - reasonably modern - train is allergic to getting wet while another - rather older - type is perfectly OK.  Neither do they wish to stand, be unduly delayed, be herded onto buses (either the rubber-tyred or the class 143/153 versions) nor do they wish to receive platitudes and explanations with the odour of male bovine waste material.

 

We once joked wryly that the railways were run for the convenience of their staff and management and that any passengers who presented themselves for travel were merely hindrances to efficient operation.  XC seems to be stuck in that rut and have their head firmly in the same piece of sand.  The Voyagers cannot (apparently) be fixed.  But alternatives which do not rely on foisting their passengers onto the often full / overcrowded services of another operator are available and can be provided.  At a not insubstantial cost.  

[phil-b259]

 

From a fare paying passenger's point of view this is all totally unacceptable considering Arriva's (DB) healthy financial circumstances and the fact that they're part of a huge enterprise.. Well it was in 2015.... http://www1.deutschebahn.com/ecm2-db-en/ir/dbgroup/business_units/dbarriva_e.html  . Is it not reasonable that they should pay for hiring in locos and have them on standby all winter? They are a Train Operating Company after all and have an obligation to their customers particularly as their financial situation is in good shape. http://ib2015.deutschebahn.com/ib2015-en/home/economy.html

 

As an alternative, maybe a couple of HST sets should be hired for the winter season when they are replaced on GWR by 802s(?) Of course neither a loco or HST solution will ever happen in our profit orientated railway. In my view though, talk of 're-nationalization' is a nonsense as much good stuff has come out of privatization by way of investment, just look at HS2.  What needs to change I think is the removal of the dead hand of DaFT from the equation with our railways run by politicians and civil servants, not 'railway' people. But hey, that will never happen either!

 

The House transport committee criticism of DaFT and their 'going soft' attitude regarding the TOCs, makes an interesting read. Will anything ever change regarding the problems of our SW rail links or anything else come to that? I very much doubt it. 

 

https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/transport-committee/news-parliament-2015/rail-passenger-experience-report-published-16-17/

 

You are making the same mistake everybody else does here. It makes sod all difference who the parent company of a franchise is - the franchise system is not set up to milk / punish large multinationals for making money from UK train operations and if you actually inspect the financial reports in detail you would find the profits such multinationals make from their UK franchises is actually pretty much the same as any medium sized UK only high street retailer and perfectly average.

 

If you don't like that then get campaigning for a political party that is willing to change the whole franchising process rather than taking cheap potshots at businesses that are lawfully making modest ammounts of money out of a system our elected Government chose to put in place.

 

Furthermore you and others need to note that the way the UK Government chose to structure the rail industry actually discourages investment by franchises. No sane commercial company is going to spend money if it isn't going be paid back in a reasonable timeframe - you wouldn't expect Sainsburys to open a batch of stores for 10 years expecting to make a loss as a direct result would you. The problem is a 'reasonable timeframe ' in railway terms (given how expensive rolling stock or infrastructure items are) is around 25 years - yet the Government favour 7 - 10 year franchises......

 

You also need to remember that even the likes of XC get a partial subsidy from the Treasury (while the XC core may be profitable, those early morning / late evening runs in Cornwall and Scotland are not). This means the UK treasury has an interest in franchise costs (particularly train leasing costs) and will not sanction anything that alters the financial landscape mid franchise. It also dislikes experimental or innovative suggestions from the TOC that require additional funding as that in turn creates an expectation that the increased subsidy will also be needed in all future franchises

 

In short XC are actually doing exactly what they are required to do under their current franchise and its up to the politicians, NOT XCs shareholders (regardless of whether they happen to be DB, SNCF, WallMart, Tesco, etc) to make monies available for 'storm standby' traction. However given we keep being told the railway costs too much to run in the first place by said politicians, I doubt 'just in case' solutions to the sea wall are going to be listened too in Whitehall any more than the complaints of commuters from solidly Conservative voting areas made any difference to the Southern dispute..

Edited February 6, 2017 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

 But alternatives which do not rely on foisting their passengers onto the often full / overcrowded services of another operator are available and can be provided.  At a not insubstantial cost.  

 

As has been pointed out standby locos DO cost substantial amounts of money - particularly if you are going to have them ready to be deployed as soon as the weather decides to turn bad - and that requires the approval of HM Treasury, who are loath to mess with franchise agreements, let alone cough up extra cash for things that do not give a good return on the BCR scale..

 

People need to wake up to the fact that our 'privatised' railways are nothing of the sort and the mandarins in Whitehall have far more control over what goes on than they ever had under BR. British Rail, by virtue of owning its own stock, having locos it could spare for such duties and being able (to an an extent) hide / disperse the extra costs of arranging such cover within its various sections was able to do things our privatised system is simply not set up to do and far too many people don't seem to appreciate it.

 

The message is thus clear - if you want something to happen about XC start lobbying your MPs to pressurise the Treasury / DfT that maintaining through XC services in storm conditions is worth spending cash on.

[The Stationmaster]

As has been pointed out standby locos DO cost substantial amounts of money - particularly if you are going to have them ready to be deployed as soon as the weather decides to turn bad - and that requires the approval of HM Treasury, who are loath to mess with franchise agreements, let alone cough up extra cash for things that do not give a good return on the BCR scale..

 

People need to wake up to the fact that our 'privatised' railways are nothing of the sort and the mandarins in Whitehall have far more control over what goes on than they ever had under BR. British Rail, by virtue of owning its own stock, having locos it could spare for such duties and being able (to an an extent) hide / disperse the extra costs of arranging such cover within its various sections was able to do things our privatised system is simply not set up to do and far too many people don't seem to appreciate it.

 

The message is thus clear - if you want something to happen about XC start lobbying your MPs to pressurise the Treasury / DfT that maintaining through XC services in storm conditions is worth spending cash on.

 

Very true Phil and the important thing is that it would involve real money going out of the business/franchise.  I got into loco hire (in terms of hiring them out) relatively early in privatisation days and I think either I or RES was the first to charge for the service beyond what was in the Access Conditions in respect of 'clear the line' use of locos.  And I was definitely the first to hire out Drivers and the hire business brought in revenue - and obviously cost other operators money.  But I also built various contractual relationships with others - mainly RES - for call-off inwards hire.

 

Now before anyone leaps on this 'commercialisation' I have very little doubt that even if there had been no privatisation the BR business sectors in their post 1992 form would have been doing the same although whether it would have involved real or 'paper' money is debatable.  The reason for that is simple - with the business based lead the industry adopted under 1992 sectorisation there were not only the same old budgetary pressures but there was a completely new element where we got far more 'careful' about the costs we were loaded with by other sectors, and of course the costs we loaded them with.  Thus in my 1993 budget I took out £1 million of bought-in services from other businesses because I could get better value for money (and a substantial saving) by taking on additional staff and doing the work for ourselves and ceasing to, in effect, subsidise other business sectors.   Privatisation simply formalised what some of us - particularly TLF - had already been doing but it also turned it into real money which was exactly what some of us (within the industry) saw as a means of reducing expenditure and/or improving revenue.

 

But with a franchise there is a very different element as its hands are largely tied by the Franchise Agreement and the terms of that are basically decided by Civil Servants whose main interest is not so much value for money but getting the best financial terms for the state.  Thus - as Phil has said - they are very unlikely to look benignly on a cost in the contract which is only of any value on a small number of days per annum.  Sorry but that's the way it is.

[Captain Kernow]

Whilst in no way condoning the regular disruption to passengers whenever there are 'high seas' at Dawlish, it's worth remembering that this is not the only bit of coastline that gets disrupted when there are such weather conditions. It's just that this is one of the few sections of coast line with a high profile piece of main line railway running along it.

 

Further down in the South Hams, the main road between Dartmouth and Kingsbridge is regularly disrupted at Slapton/Torcross, due to the effects of 'high seas'. That is the responsibility of Devon CC Highways, and we don't get much comment in the media locally when that road is closed for a period of time.

[Re6/6]

Just heard on Radio Devon that the new sets will be fine along the wall. Didn't hear who had reportedly said that but it is assumed that it must have been GWR.

 

As soon as confirmation on BBC website is seen it will be posted. At high tides and SE winds last week X/C, as usual, cancelled their Plymouth services.

 

 

P.S. The announcement came from a chap called Gentleman from GWR. He said that the 'first cut of metal for the 802s has been made' and when questioned about the sea wall problems with the Voyagers he said that they (802s) had been specifically designed to cope with bad sea wall conditions and 'have been tested'. So there we have it.

 

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2017/02/15/hitachi-rail-italy-begins-production-of-class-802-bi-mode-trains-for-gwr/

Edited February 15, 2017 by Re6/6

[Captain Kernow]

Just heard on Radio Devon that the new sets will be fine along the wall. Didn't hear who had reportedly said that but it is assumed that it must have been GWR.

 

As soon as confirmation on BBC website is seen it will be posted. At high tides and SE winds last week X/C, as usual, cancelled their Plymouth services.

 

 

P.S. The announcement came from a chap called Gentleman from GWR. He said that the 'first cut of metal for the 802s has been made' and when questioned about the sea wall problems with the Voyagers he said that they (802s) had been specifically designed to cope with bad sea wall conditions and 'have been tested'. So there we have it.

 

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2017/02/15/hitachi-rail-italy-begins-production-of-class-802-bi-mode-trains-for-gwr/

Very interesting indeed.

 

On the face of it, GWR (and their leasing company) could not possibly risk the same debacle as happened with the Voyagers, happening to them as well.

 

On the other hand, I bet that the airline type seating will make the interiors not much different from any other modern type train, such as a Voyager.

 

 

 

 

And I bet the lavatories will be c*ap as well!

[Ramblin Rich]

This is in the class 800 updates thread, the linked article states "Two five-car trains and one nine-car will be delivered via the port of Southampton in the summer for testing on the coastal section of the Great Western Main Line between Exeter and Newton Abbot. "

Production of class 802s for services to Devon and Cornwall underway in Italy: http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/hitachi-rail-italy-begins-production-of-bi-mode-trains-for-gwr.html?channel=529

 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Ramblin Rich

[Siberian Snooper]

The lunchtime Spotlight, said that they would be going into service next year, if so that will free up HSTs to cover the lack of 800s due to late running.

[Re6/6]

 

On the other hand, I bet that the airline type seating will make the interiors not much different from any other modern type train, such as a Voyager.

 

I recall that when they were first mooted, a piece in 'Rail' magazine said that there would be window/seat correlation, but when the first interior shots on that disastrous BBC 'trainspotting' programme seemed to show it not be the case...(IIRC) 

 

 

 

 

And I bet the lavatories will be c*ap as well!

Not to mention the unusable lavatory paper dispensers.

 

On Monday at our DRAG meeting when we were discussing the IEPs one of our members who was a senior PW engineer at LT said that he'd visited the Voyager production line. The built ones all had a great big hole in their roofs and when he enquired about it he was informed that the lavatory units were behind schedule being constructed in Bahrain (or was it Kuwait...can't remember). He said that they probably were designed by the manufacturer and not in the Middle East!

 

P.S. Lifted from Radio Devon news page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-devon-38929338

 

Work on 36 new GWR intercity trains to connect Devon and Cornwall to London has got under way in Italy. 

When the AT300 trains are finished, GWR said they would have more seats, space and on board technology, and the possibility of shorter journey times.

The rail operator also confirmed to BBC Radio Devon that they would be guaranteed to get past Dawlish. 

The sea-facing line through the town has caused problems for services over the years, with trains being swept by waves, damaging them; and salt water even causing engines to stop after it affected electrical systems.

The trains are likely to be ready from 2018.

 

A pretty confident statement is that....guaranteeing things....but perhaps they will....we'll have to see.....takes off cynic's hat....!

 

BBC picture

Edited February 15, 2017 by Re6/6

[Ramblin Rich]

 

 

P.S. Lifted from Radio Devon news page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-devon-38929338

...

The rail operator also confirmed to BBC Radio Devon that they would be guaranteed to get past Dawlish. 

The sea-facing line through the town has caused problems for services over the years, with trains being swept by waves, damaging them; and salt water even causing engines to stop after it affected electrical systems.

 

 

What if there is another closure due to track damage? The only way that can be guaranteed is by fitting retractable road wheels!

[Ramblin Rich]

Meanwhile, the road route to London will get improvements

[The Stationmaster]

Meanwhile, the road route to London will get improvements

 

Well that's one way of using the money they've saved by cutting back GWML (and BL) electrification.

[Captain Kernow]

This is in the class 800 updates thread, the linked article states "Two five-car trains and one nine-car will be delivered via the port of Southampton in the summer for testing on the coastal section of the Great Western Main Line between Exeter and Newton Abbot. "

One must sincerely hope, though, that the testing will be done in the Autumn and Winter, as there tends to be fewer storms during the Summer!

[Geoff Endacott]

Aren't the 802s going to be bi-mode - diesel and clockwork?

 

Geoff Endacott