Wickham Trolley

[Dunsignalling]

I hope those of you that have got a Wickham have seen the warning about DCC controllers - it says :

 

"Do not run the Wickham Trolley as an 'analogue' item on a DCC system (DCC Address 0, or 10 on E-Z Command as the motor will be permanently damaged by the DCC signal"

 

I read this just in time..........

 

 

BIG question - does this mean that it CANNOT be chipped for DCC - answers please?

Nothing is impossible if you have the necessary skills and equipment.

 

In this case it may just be so difficult/time consuming/hazardous to the model that only the most able or foolhardy will attempt it and (possibly) the write-off rate will make the cost of getting it done professionally, prohibitive.  

 

We simply won't know until a few brave souls have had a go but Bachmann themselves evidently consider that either [a] it's too difficult or  It could be done but would add so much to the price as to make it commercially unviable.

 

John

Edited November 2, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[SDJR7F88]

A review of the eagerly anticipated Bachmann Wickham Type 27 Trolley Car in smart BR Engineers Yellow.
Designed by D Wickham & Co. Ltd, the type 27 Gang and Inspection trolley was designed as a railway engineering personnel carrier, used for transporting permanent way gangs and there tools, quickly and safely to their point of work.
Introduced in 1948, over 600 Type 27 were built, 25 of which saw service with the MOD, being used on Military operated railways. 
Other variants of the Wickham have also been produced, being used across the globe. It is thought that 12,000 vehicles, of many varieties, have been produced to their design.
Many members of the class have been preserved, providing a very handy work vehicle for preserved railways up and down the country. 
Bachmann really have gone all out with the Wickham, specially considering it's size (The Trolley itself is smaller than a 50p Piece). Featuring a wealth of detail including; detailed cab interior, fine handrails, separately windscreen wipers, well applied Glazing, plus more. This model is sure not lacking in detail.
Performance is also top notch, with the Wickham smoothly and quietly straight from the box. The model also makes not hesitation over point-work, even at a crawl!
This model really is a must for any layout! 
Hope you enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUYJ0anm_9E

[nick_bastable]

lots of examples of 2mm and N gauge been chipped 03/04/Terrier even a 02 I can recommend   S H Modelmaking  www.shmodelmaking.co.uk/   who chipped couple of N  gauge terriers for me after I had problems but eventual managed the 04

 

Nick

[PenrithBeacon]

Entitlement? Really? And if you do express an opinion which is wholly impractical please do expect others to respond.

No matter how impractical or how much people disagree he is entitled to his view. He is not entitled to express it by being abusive or unkind but he hasn't been abusive or unkind, just pretty straight forward.

 

For what it's worth I disagree with him too. I don't understand the obsession with sound particularly as it's only the sound of the engine. There are other sounds on and around a railway and only having the engines make sounds seems to me to be most unrealistic.

 

Regards

[MarkSG]

Part of the problem is that there's a perception among many model buyers that "smaller" should equal "cheaper". So we'll pay £350+ for an APT-E, a couple of hundred for a Garratt, £150ish for an A4, but we expect a shunter to come in at little more than £100.

 

Up to a point, that's justifiable, because the bigger a prototype the more design work there is in replicating it. But when you've got something that's both small and offbeat, and where the particular challenge is actually making it work at all in the space available, then this ratio of size to cost breaks down.

 

Obviously, the Wickham Trolley could have been made DCC ready, as it's bigger than many N-gauge locos which are suitable for DCC. But then you'd be looking at the same price bracket as a DCC ready loco in N - which isn't far off double the actual RRP of the Trolley. And would people be willing to pay that kind of price for it?

 

I suspect that some people on here would say that yes, they would, and they'd be willing to accept a higher price for something with a more sophisticated mechanism that uses a smaller motor and gearing to make space for a chip. But out in the wider world of the toy and model shops, where people are going to be looking at this alongside more recognisable locos, that's a rather risky proposition for the manufacturer.

 

Given that a lot of potential buyers will have no idea what it even is (and even those who do will not necessarily feel that they "need" one in the way that they do some other gap-fillers in the range), this is a distinctly esoteric subject for Bachmann to tackle. It's not surprising, therefore, that they've chosen to build it down to a price that makes it an attractive purchase even for those who wouldn't put it anywhere near the top of their wishlists.

 

Personally, I'm happy with it as it is. I'm pretty sure that third party DCC fitters will find a way to put a chip in, even if it means rebuilding the trailer to do so (or finding a way to hide it under the roof of the trolley). Given that the trolley itself is the complex part, as far as visual modelling is concerned, I can even see the potential for a complete replacement trailer (maybe a 3D printed kit) that uses a different motor and incorporates a chip. But I don't think we can justifiably complain that this model, at this price, isn't DCC ready. We're lucky enough to have it at all.

[No Decorum]

Very good points made there. However, an N loco, even if small, is a lot more solid than the trolley. I’d say that it would be much easier to design space for a decoder into a little tank loco, with its boiler and tanks, than the trolley, which is wide open.

[locoholic]

Entitlement? Really? And if you do express an opinion which is wholly impractical please do expect others to respond.

By your own admission, it's not "wholly impractical", just (possibly) economically unjustifiable. I too am really surprised that Bachmann have gone ahead with a model that isn't DCC compatible.

 

Having watched the video reviews, I think the trolley looks ridiculous trundling along with no-one on board, like a ghost train. As Bachmann have started selling stock with passengers glued on the seats, I would have thought that having some p-way staff on board would have been a good way of hiding a small DCC chip. That's my opinion.

[Hroth]

Liked the review by SDJR7F88 - it would have been nice to see it alongside a couple of more "normal" locos to give a real impression of the size, say a Bachmann Midland 1F or a Hornby Sentinel. 

 

As for DCC, I was struck by the really tiny decoder offered by Golden Valley Models ( https://www.goldenvalleyhobbies.com/index.php?page=product&prodID=13500&catID=3151 ) for Z/N gauge locos wihch looks like it might have "possibilities", although at £32.50 you could get half another Trolley! (Based on what Hattons is asking for the Trolley)

 

And I second locoholic regarding the lack of crew.  Bachmann could have popped in a bod wearing a hi-vis vest to drive it.  Of course, the maroon version would have to have a bloke in overalls and a flat cap....

Edited November 2, 2016 by Hroth

[Dungrange]

By your own admission, it's not "wholly impractical", just (possibly) economically unjustifiable. I too am really surprised that Bachmann have gone ahead with a model that isn't DCC compatible.

 

Having watched the video reviews, I think the trolley looks ridiculous trundling along with no-one on board, like a ghost train. As Bachmann have started selling stock with passengers glued on the seats, I would have thought that having some p-way staff on board would have been a good way of hiding a small DCC chip. That's my opinion.

 

But who has said the model isn't DCC compatible?  Yes, it would appear to be too small to fit a 'plug and play' socket, but that doesn't make it incompatible with DCC: it just makes it more difficult to convert.  If a very small decoder (for that read more expensive decoder) has to be hardwired then it wouldn't be easy for those with a DC set up to remove the decoder and it would add significantly to the cost, which would clearly hit sales. Effectively all Bachmann are doing is leaving each DCC user to make their own decision as to where best to try and incorporate a small hard wired decoder.  After all, wherever Bachmann tried to put it, some would prefer that it had been incorporated somewhere else.

 

However, I agree with the need for a crew and it would be good to see the model alongside a larger locomotive such as an 08 shunter to better appreciate the size.

[£1.38]

Does this help?

 

 

[£1.38]

And a couple more

 

 

[Hroth]

Eeek!

 

Certainly puts the Wickham in perspective!

[Guest Midland Mole]

 

....seriously!

 

- Alex

Edited November 3, 2016 by Midland Mole

[Dunsignalling]

But who has said the model isn't DCC compatible?  Yes, it would appear to be too small to fit a 'plug and play' socket, but that doesn't make it incompatible with DCC: it just makes it more difficult to convert.  If a very small decoder (for that read more expensive decoder) has to be hardwired then it wouldn't be easy for those with a DC set up to remove the decoder and it would add significantly to the cost, which would clearly hit sales. Effectively all Bachmann are doing is leaving each DCC user to make their own decision as to where best to try and incorporate a small hard wired decoder.  After all, wherever Bachmann tried to put it, some would prefer that it had been incorporated somewhere else.

 

However, I agree with the need for a crew and it would be good to see the model alongside a larger locomotive such as an 08 shunter to better appreciate the size.

 

 

 

Non-DCC users still form a hefty "silent majority" in the marketplace (my dealer reckons the "converted" form no more than 20% of his customer-base) who aren't going to stand maybe an extra £50 on the price for a facility they neither need or want.

 

A plug and play socket would fill most of the trailer before you got a chip anywhere near it so a dedicated custom, hard-wired set-up using an expensive ultra-compact chip is the only solution. The cost of that would require Bachmann to produce separate DC and DCC versions of the model, but having separate production rums for a relatively small proportion of DCC-fitted versions would inevitably increase the cost even more. A DCC version retailing at double the price of its basic counterpart would be quite likely.

 

So, it's not "impossible" but what a skilled modeller can achieve in a couple of hours (charging perhaps £30 per hour plus around £40 for the chip if he's a pro) and what can be done economically on a short-run production line are very different things. 

 

Given all the bleating that's been going on about Bachmann prices of late, my guess is that they think the premium they'd have to charge just wouldn't go down well.    

 

John

Edited November 3, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[stewartingram]

Am I right in thinking the dreaded CORELESS word is appropriate here?

 

Stewart

[No Decorum]

It would seem so. The reason being that the coreless motor can, apparently, be made smaller than a decent five-pole skew-wound one or even a three-pole.

[stewartingram]

That has saved me a few quid then!

 

Stewart

[SDJR7F88]

Liked the review by SDJR7F88 - it would have been nice to see it alongside a couple of more "normal" locos to give a real impression of the size, say a Bachmann Midland 1F or a Hornby Sentinel. 

 

Thanks Hroth. Glad it was of help. Yes, I really should of to give it a sense of prospective. Sadly didn't have any stock on the track at the time of filming (was in between a split shift at work  ) It really is amazing how small it is! £1.38 done a great job with those pics showing it's size. Took me ages to get the camera to focus on all the little details. 

I did manage to film a quick running session too, again sadly no stock on the track, but it does stand aside some Bachmann Hi-vis Workmen near the end, and pass a Hornby Buffer Stop too, which towers over it. There's also a clip of it gliding over the dreaded Hornby express points (with the massive dead spot) with no issue what so ever! Even some of my small 0-6-0 can make it over them   Really is an amazing little model indeed. 

[MarkSG]

Can anyone explain what the opposition is to a coreless motor?

[No Decorum]

You have to remove high-frequency track cleaners, if you have any, to avoid damage to the motors. They are incompatible with feedback controllers as well. For what it’s worth, I have found certain models fitted with them do not run well but that could be because of something other than the motor.

[Stanley Melrose]

They're much more efficient than the old-fashioned motors with iron cores on which their armatures are wound and because the magnet is in the centre and there are no pole pieces external to the armature, their outside diameter can be smaller for the same power output.  Their Faraday spun cage armatures eliminate cogging and their reponse time to a change in current is extremely small which is why they are used in precision instruments, e.g. plotters recording real-time events, but increasingly in cameras, etc.  Most of all because the relevant patents have probably expired they are being made very cheaply in China so expect to see them in many more electrically-powered models in future.

 

Although the first coreless motor powered loco that I saw was Bernard Laycock's GW 0-6-0 around 40 years ago and Guy Williams installed one in a King class loco at Pendon a little while later, it's taken all these years until they became cheap enough to install in proprietary models.  They're the future and will require changes to (many) control systems to manage their more sophisticated parameters so I guess that may be why there is opposition to them . . .

 

Stan

 

Can anyone explain what the opposition is to a coreless motor?

[£1.38]

At a friends suggestion, here's the Wickham next to a Dapol N gauge Class 26

 

 

[phil gollin]

.

 

Which is bigger, the Wickham Trolley or the Bachmann US "Gandy-Dancer" ?

[dibber25]

.

 

Which is bigger, the Wickham Trolley or the Bachmann US "Gandy-Dancer" ?

Bigger overall? In terms of bulk, the gandy dancer is bigger because the mechanism is much taller but if you take into account the fact that the Wickham is two vehicles that have to remain permanently coupled, the Wickham is considerably longer than the Gandy Dancer. The Wickham is a serious attempt at an accurate model. The Gandy Dancer is a novelty item which doesn't really look anything like the real thing. Its great fun, nevertheless. (CJL)

[bigherb]

 and their reponse time to a change in current is extremely small

Which is actually the opposite we need in model railways.