Dapol "O" gauge Terrier.

[Jenny Emily]

Received my Father's, and it is perfect in every way. Dapol, you are forgiven for the string of excuses for delays (but don't do it again!). No problems with mine. I checked it thoroughly, and all bits are present and in place and the connecting rods are the right way up. He is very pleased with it too, but took it home with him before I could get some videos done.

[73080]

LBSCR liveries

 

Although colour photography did not exist in LBSCR Stroudley days (but see below), there are many contemporary b&w and sepia photographic prints made during those days.  Whilst these have severe limitations when trying to interpret colours, they usually give a fair representation of lighter and darker shades of the same basic colour.

 

The Terrier tank side panels have sometimes been described as ochre with gold lettering.  I have many photos of LBSCR tank engines in original Stroudley livery and the one thing they all have in common is that tank panels are a significantly darker shade than the loco name which appears to be almost white (in black & white shades).  This is the reverse on the model, which is evidently in error in this regard.

 

Now to throw the cat amongst the pidgeons.

 

The areas outside the 'yellow' panels on the Dapol models appear to a light olive green with a yellowish tint.  This appears to be not dissimilar to the Bluebell Railway's 'Stepney' and some other preserved Terriers.  The lbscr.org site supports this livery interpretation to some extent, stating that the borders were dark olive green.  But is this correct ?  Perhaps some-one can advise how this information was obtained.

 

Evidence contemporary to the LBSCR Stroudley period suggest that the borders were in fact chocolate brown.  The January 1900 edition of The Locomotive Magazine included a colour plate of LBSCR 4-4-0 'Bessemer' as built in 1898.  The text of the magazine in referring to the colour print states that it "is, we believe, for accuracy and minuteness of detail quite equal to any of its predecessors". 

 

This loco was in the Stroudley livery still in use at the time of publication and clearly shows that the borders were chocolate brown.  The Locomotive Publishing Co Ltd also published pre-1914 a number of colour postcards of LBSCR locos.  I have a few of LBSCR 0-6-2Ts all showing chocolate borders, as well as one of a Terrier ('Denmark') again showing chocolate not olive green borders.

 

Is anybody able to give a pre-1914 source to support the idea that LBSCR Stroudley livery borders were olive green ?  Perhaps this is an instance of a mistake in the pre-WW2 days of preservation that has been perpetuated in error ?

 

Accordingly, is the Dapol Terrier in LBSCR livery correct for some preserved locos, but incorrect for the pre-grouping period ?

[Overner]

Just to add to the general difficulty of interpreting colours from black and white photographs. Up 'till the first world war, the film used was orthochromatic which wasn't equally sensitive to all colours, rendering colours at the blue (colder) end of the spectrum lighter than they in fact were and colours at the red (warmer) end darker. Panchromatic emulsions which render all colours in the right shade of grey didn't become generally available until after the war and common until the 1920's. 

[gardenwall]

Just to add to the general difficulty of interpreting colours from black and white photographs. Up 'till the first world war, the film used was orthochromatic which wasn't equally sensitive to all colours, rendering colours at the blue (colder) end of the spectrum lighter than they in fact were and colours at the red (warmer) end darker. Panchromatic emulsions which render all colours in the right shade of grey didn't become generally available until after the war and common until the 1920's. 

Quite right, and that's before the photograher uses coloured filters to control the contrast of clouds/sky, vegetation and so forth.

[DaveF]

I hesitate to jump into a livery discussion concerning a pre-grouping railway which is not one I have studied in detail, and I am not saying 73080 is wrong, but just presenting some evidence from my own collection of books and images.

 

As far as I can see Gladstone, in the NRM has olive green.  The loco was originally preserved when many people would have had first hand memories of the livery, so it was probably painted correctly (see below for repainting date of last Stroudley liveried loco).

 

Two photos of the Brighton Works Terrier, taken in 1946 on the same day (in Big Four in Colour, David Jenkinson, Pendragon publishing) show olive green not chocolate.  The author suggests that as the loco was painted in the LBSCR livery by Brighton Works they were probably working from good evidence.

 

One photo is on Dufaycolour, the other on 8ASA early Kodachrome and show quite different renditions of Improved Engine Green.  In both cases the lettering appears paler than the body colour.

 

I've looked at reproductions of LB&SCR locomotives on postcards in a book.    In four the colour is clearly an olive green, though variable in shade.    The fifth one is a browner colour.  I do agree that in some lights olive green can look very "browny".

 

A thought about printed material - inks fade or change colour with time, even in the dark, they also "rub" against the adjacent sheet of paper when bound.   This can cause a colour shift.  The printing process can never guarantee an exact match with an original painting as the pigments are not the same.  Hence the warning on all paint manufacturers' shade cards about colour matching.

 

Lastly I had a look in E F Carters "Britain's Railway Liveries, published in 1952.  I know the book is not considered to be completely accurate, it consists mainly of references he collated from a wide variety of sources.  Sadly (I suspect for reasons of space) the sources are not credited.

 

In the case of the Stroudley LB&SCR livery each reference he gives refers to olive green, there is no mention of chocolate.

 

The shade he gives as being the Improved Engine Green is somewhat darker then the photos I've seen of the Dapol Terrier would suggest.

 

However, paint ages and the varnish used can cause considerable colour change, as can heat and weather.

 

So will we ever know the exact shade of both Improved Engine Green and Olive Green (or whatever).  Even if we had the original colour specifications we would also need to know the undercoat colour, number of coats of each colour and the type of varnish used. Even the oils used in cleaning the paintwork can cause an oily sheen which changes the apparent colour.

 

The last loco in Stroudley livery is said to have been 591 Tillington, repainted into March livery in February 1917.  So when Gladstone was preserved there would certainly be people who could remember the actual livery.  Even when "Brighton Works" was painted there were probably still employees at Brighton Works who could remember Stroudley liveried locos.

 

But unless someone has access to an original specification we'll probably never know....

 

David

Edited September 6, 2015 by DaveF

[Les1952]

Having yesterday seen one of the models rather than a photo of it I will add two brief comments.

 

The yellow is lighter than the N-gauge Terrier.

 

OTOH there was a good deal of criticism that the N-gauge Terrier was too dark.

 

Conclusion - whatever shade Dapol go for people will line up to say it is wrong....

 

Les

[DaveF]

I've remembered I have another reference to Stroudley's loco livery, this time in "The London Brighton and South Coast Railway" by C Hamilton Ellis, pub Ian Allan in 1960 (1971 edition).

 

He says the best reference for the livery is on a model built by  Dr Bradbury Winter of "Como", in the Brighton Museum and Art Gallery.  I wonder if it is still there and on show? Does anyone know?  I think the model was built when locos were still painted in the livery.

 

The borders on this model are dark olive green.  He also mentions that the loco and tender are very slightly different shades of Improved Engine Green, the tender of the model was painted after the engine.

 

He also says the Improved Engine Green has a minute trace of green in it.

 

Hamilton Ellis also gives about a page of the details of the livery.

 

Finally he says that the Improved Engine Green (yellow) colour could look very different depending on the light.- he actually says "oddly variable tone values according to changes in light and shade".  

 

 

David

Edited September 6, 2015 by DaveF

[burgundy]

With respect, the suggestion that the Stroudley livery was bordered with chocolate brown is not one that I have ever previously encountered. The subsequent Marsh livery of umber was bordered in chocolate brown, but every reference that I have seen to the Stroudley livery indicates that the border was olive green.

Como at Brighton Museum is regarded as a contemporary source and a number of members of the Brighton Circle arranged to visit the museum and see the loco in natural light (and not through glass) a few months ago. As a result, special mixes of paint were developed for Improved Engine Green, Olive Green and Claret (for valences and outside frames) and these were sold to Circle members.

For what it is worth, my own efforts at repainting a 4mm scale Terrier are recorded here. 

I hope this helps

Best wishes

Eric

[Nick Holliday]

I have two contemporary watercolour paintings, circa 1880, which definitely show a dark green border to the IEG.

[Focalplane]

This discussion is to me, a foreigner (Brummie), most interesting because it highlights the subjective descriptions we all have about colour and how it varies, ages and so on.

 

It is said (don't you like that old Top Gear expression!) that the Stanier pacific 46235 sitting (or mothballed) inside Birmingham's Thinktank may be the only steam locomotive that still has its Crewe Works BR green paint, all others in preservation having been repainted.  This may be so (the curator certainly expounds this as a reason for not allowing 46235 to leave the museum) but even this paint must have deteriorated since it arrived at the old Museum of Science and Industry back when I was still a teenager.  So I don't think we should be too worried about shade of paint in the models.

 

And remember, Rod Stewart is somewhat colour blind to the degree that his team often repaint his buildings, etc.

 

Although I follow this topic out of interest, I seriously doubt I am in the market for a Terrier, but if I was, it would be a "second hand" Edge Hill Light Railway model and who knows whether the EHLR ever seriously repainted their acquisitions, all the photos show a badly run down, weathered example of the genre.

[Nearholmer]

Gents

 

This topic has been causing debate for many, many years, perhaps since the last Stroudley-liveried loco was repainted.

 

"Como", and two contemporary models that are in the museum at Sheffield Park, and are said to have been painted with genuine LBSCR paint, are often cited as the key references.

 

Not sure if it has come up yet, but whether they should be called "Terriers" or "Rooters" usually comes up too. The term "Terrier" was certainly in common use, and was used in the engineering press, while the locos were still being built, but I'd be interested to know what the date/source for "Rooter" is.

 

Kevin

[MarcD]

Had chat with the lads at Dapol Yesterday at Telford and I hate to brake it to you but they stated categorically that they were not intending to bring out any pre-grouping coaches or wagons to go with the Terrier as the were already being produced buy other manufactures including myself and roxey mouldings.

 

Marc

[The Bigbee Line]

I emailed Dapol today regarding the availability of a pair of condensing pipes. None available. Still if I cannot make a pair I should shoot myself.

However if anybody needs to remove a set, let me know.

[Ressaldar]

I emailed Dapol today regarding the availability of a pair of condensing pipes. None available. Still if I cannot make a pair I should shoot myself.

However if anybody needs to remove a set, let me know.

 

Hi Ernie,

 

I am thinking along the same lines as you are for 2644, but I may take the easier route and remove the tank vent pipes, blank off the holes and re-spray the loco in plain wartime black as I did above and re-create 32644 with the sunshine lettering - but then again, I might not.

 

Has anyone tried removing the THAMES lettering and applying new transfers yet? If so, what did you use as the removing agent and whose transfers did you use as the replacements?

 

cheers

 

Mike

[colney123]

Had chat with the lads at Dapol Yesterday at Telford and I hate to brake it to you but they stated categorically that they were not intending to bring out any pre-grouping coaches or wagons to go with the Terrier as the were already being produced buy other manufactures including myself and roxey mouldings.

 

Marc

Shame , when I was looking at the models in the glass case at the Ally Pally earlier this year , the guys from Dapol said that they were looking at some coaching stock , wonder why they changed their mind.

 

Simon

[Tallsteve]

Shame , when I was looking at the models in the glass case at the Ally Pally earlier this year , the guys from Dapol said that they were looking at some coaching stock , wonder why they changed their mind.

 

Simon

Hmmmm. The thing is that not all of us can or want to build rolling stock/passenger coaches from brass kits! I certainly do not. It didn't stop Dapol bringing out a Terrier or an 08, given that both are available in kit form . I think there is  a market for both kits and r-t-r and I would be more inclined to buy a kit or two from Furness and 'have a go' if I had some r-t-r trucks, knowing that if I made a mess of things, I would still have something to go back to!

 

I hope Dapol are not bowing to any sort of pressure and will think this one through very carefully. There are a lot of LBSCR Terriers out there with not a lot to pull, and with a Marsh liveried one planned for next year that will be even more the case. I am hoping this will signal a renaissance for pre-grouping, given the relatively small amount of space it  needs. Guess we will have to wait and see!

Edited September 7, 2015 by Tallsteve

[MarcD]

We can build you LBSCR wagons or coaches from either our own range or that of Roxey Moulding to order. Dapol stated that there was to much variation in pre-grouping stock to make it cost affective for them.

 

marc 

[Overner]

We can build you LBSCR wagons or coaches from either our own range or that of Roxey Moulding to order. Dapol stated that there was to much variation in pre-grouping stock to make it cost affective for them.

 

marc 

I thought that 'variations on a theme' was what cost effective products were all about!

[Tallsteve]

We can build you LBSCR wagons or coaches from either our own range or that of Roxey Moulding to order. Dapol stated that there was to much variation in pre-grouping stock to make it cost affective for them.

 

marc 

Hi Marc - that's good to know! Thanks.

[BG John]

Someone has posted on the Colonel Stephens e-mail group that there was a pre-production Bodiam on display at Telford. Apparently the colour is wrong and Dapol were asking for advice on what it should be. Isn't it supposed to be delivered at the end of this month? If so, are the painters locked in a container on the high seas waiting to finish them off when they get the details?

[brianthesnail96]

I imagine they'll fly them in again, like they did with the first batch. Still cutting it a little bit fine! I did see a photo of Bodiam, it did appear to be a smidgen on the bright side.

[Nearholmer]

Wasn't KESR livery deep ultramarine blue, lined red?

 

Anyway ......... 30+ years ago, when researching the history of obscure narrow gauge railways in East Sussex, I was directed to a very old lady who lived in a cottage in the middle of nowhere, about five miles from Crowhurst. She told me all about a little railway at a pumping station, which was what I was interested in, but then produced a half-crown from a drawer in a sideboard.

 

Said half-crown had been given to her father as a tip,when he delivered No.3 Bodiam, on the last leg of its trip from Brighton to Robertsbridge, for handover to the KESR, the gentleman in question having been a driver at st Leonard's shed. It must have been a mighty sum of money, but he'd been so proud of it, that he'd passed it on, rather than spent it.

 

My surmise is that the old lady has passed on by now - let's hope that the half-crown and the story have been handed down to her descendants.

 

Kevin

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hello, I'm  long time lurker and lover of Loks British

Why is this allowed? This is annoyance.. who are this company Dapol who say wrong things? Good companies don't and they could know what they do. I am upset by mess of color and detail on this loco (before listed) now wrong color again and extra detail also wrong.

Arrogance to pretend to ask.

(sorry my language english is extra-bad when I get annoyed.)

Hi Zaab

 

It seems that many feel the same as you - you are not alone.

 

After a long wait the Terrier seems like a reasonable model, especially for the initial release price of £164-169, yet some experts maintain that there are still errors present. I hasten to add that I am not an expert on Terriers. If the model stays at the introductory price - which is unlikely - then such things can be kept in mind/perspective and one pays their money and makes their choice ie a good starting point for modeller applied details/modifications?

 

The release of the first batch has been marred though by some models (straw poll of 30-50%?) arriving damaged and missing items/instructions - which I cant fathom, as subject matter experts, Dapol should have negated these problems - they have been in the business for long enough.

 

In other walks of life the general public would not tolerate these issues with a consumer product - yet railway modellers as purchasers of RTR often do, so it would seem, no value judgements on my part, as each to their own - I make these comments as an observation.

 

I understand though that many of the issues and problems - with the initial batch - will be rectified for the second batch, in terms of damage/breakages, packaging, lack of instruction sheets etc. Time will tell.

 

At the end of the day its an attractive little model, for a relatively low price, one that is Dapol's best 7mm scale release to date, which, hopefully (?) bodes well for the 08?

 

Kind regards to all,

 

CME

Edited September 7, 2015 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Zaab]

Hello CME bottlewasher

50% damaged and all other problems huh not good this fact. i think you are brave you know much about Dapol so i guess work there?

Good stuff I hop you make them fix broken company. so many people here know truth. Dapol do not admit like dj models? very busy, very great man. perhaps yo soon work there no? 

[two tone green]

serious poster or what.