CME and Bottlewasher Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) The phrase was 'other manufacturers' and while this does indeed include at least 2 kit manufacturers, one may assume that Dapol could have inside knowledge of Lionhearts future plans. It all depends on what the working agreement is between the two. Have to be down the road a little as Lionheart have the GWR coach and the LMS/GWR/etc opens to bring out first, but you never know. Hi GW, Interesting points - yet a delicate ethical matter as such could be seen as 'anti-competition', which is against the law, having said that, if prices are fair and it avoids duplication then that has to be a good thing? ATB CME Edited September 8, 2015 by CME and Bottlewasher Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenwall Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Hi GW, Interesting points - yet a delicate ethical matter as such could be seen as 'anti-competition', which is against the law, having said that, if prices are fair and it avoids duplication then that has to be a good thing? ATB CME Given that Richard is involved in both companies, it would be kind of difficult not to have some cross feeding. I seen to recall that when Richard's appointment was announced there was some sort of 'accord' implied. That Lionheart would continue (as it has) and the o gauge ranges would compliment each other. Also the Terriers had been announce prior to Richard's appointment, so long term plans could have been pre-existing. As you say possibly a good thing by avoiding duplication. Of course this remains conjecture - I could be wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I have just looked through the book Stroudley and his Terriers, in a few cases there a few marks adjacent to the fillers but I think rather than calcium marks these are more likely to be areas that have been polished or rubbed by either the water cranes or general wear by footplate crew as they open the fillers. Water tends to run off or evaporate quite quickly when tanks are filled, have a look next time when you visit a preserved railway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Being very selfish but I agree as I would be out of work. We only do pre-grouping stock and there is no room to reduce the price to enable us to compete with stock made in China. We produce rolling stock from over twenty different pre-grouping companies, although some people still think we only do Furness Railway items. All our stock is available as kits for those people who like to build it themselves but we also produce everything in our range as ready to run on demand and to the customers requirements. Last year we produced two LBSCR wagons to coincide with the launch of the Dapol Terrier and I have sold 3 of one and 5 of the other, they are some of our worst selling items. As a small scale supplier I have to say that the plans we had to produce more LBSCR can not be justified so if I was Dapol I would not be going into the realm of pre-grouping wagons and coaches. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold John B Posted September 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 8, 2015 Well, two LBSCR versions arrived across the Atlantic last week. I couldn't resist, having built a number in 4mm scale! The IEG definitely takes on a darker hue in more moderate lighting. I think it's a wee bit too yellow, but not far off. The application is wonderful, the details superb, for such a keenly priced model. I couldn't make one for that cost! With some muted weathering I reckon it will look superb. Only one buffer head loose. All other fittings present and correct. Slightly cracked plastic clamshell (bottom corner) was probably the cause. Highly satisfied customer. I may be tempted to an umber version.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirtleypete Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Here's what the real Terriers looked like in Stroudley livery. This is the picture I used when painting my model. There is water staining on the side tank - that's not from rubbing the water crane hose or whatever, that is water that has run down from the filler cap. There is also quite noticable staining running down the side of the smokebox, but otherwise she's gleaming. It's worth pointing out that she only looked like that on the day the picture was taken; the following day that staining might have been cleaned away and everything was clean again. It is also worth saying that not all Terriers ran around with a white stripe on the side tank, far from it, but enough did to justify adding it to a model. Knowle wasn't alone...... Look how worn tha paint is along the bottom edge of the tank, too. The side of the tank isn't actually the tank at all, it's a plate held by the bolts you can see away from the real side tank to allow air to circulate and cool the water in the tanks which became hot due to the condensing gear. It's not as clear in the picture but Newington also has staining running down the tank side, as well as on the smokebox. The staining is even fainter on 'Brighton', but it is there. Finally.... Piccadilly has beautifully clean side tanks, but just look at the smokebox! It may be that the paint was so damaged by the hot water leaking down it that cleaning it properly was no longer possible. I hope these pictures show that even on a clean, well looked after loco there is still scope for some subtle weathering to make your model stand out from the crowd. i would suggest also doing the following.... paint the axle ends olive green (Tamiya Olive Green is perfect), paint the balance weights olive green between the spokes and paint the tool box lid olive green. Paint the wooden brake blocks brown, and also the cab floor. I hope this helps, Peter 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 So, what was the convention regarding the joint in the coupling rods? In Locomotives Illustrated 48 (the only one which I wrote the text for) the illustrations mainly show the joint forward of the centre crankpin, but there is one shot showing the joint aft of the centre. If the wheel spacing was equal, did it not matter? CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirtleypete Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I don't suppose it did - it wouldn't affect the running. In the five pictures above, four are ahead of the crankpin and one is behind! Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Two thoughts: Weathering - there is also evidence that the paint suffered with high heat. Look around some of the clack valves in the (Bennett collection?) pictures above, and on other views showing the cab front above the firebox. Probably all those natural oils being driven out by heat, leaving just dry pigment. Coupling-rod joints - might the rods have been deliberately swapped about, to even out wear in the crank-pin and joint bearings? I have in mind that, even on a tank engine, which might go as far forwards as backwards, the forces in one direction might be subtly different from those in the other, causing differential wear. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47606odin Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Blimey, coupling rods on backwards on the real thing! what chance did Dapol have? we can no longer class it as a fault on the model Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirtleypete Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) The condensing affected the paintwork as well, and not just on the Terriers. The water in tender loco's could reach close to boiling point and tender sides weren't protected by the additional side sheet. There are pictures of tenders with perfect livery along the coal space and almost no paint at all where the water was, it had all burnt off. The shape of the internal division between the two was perfect, as if it has been drawn on. It was only possible to have the water as hot as this because the loco's used axle driven feed pumps to fill the bolier, an injector wouldn't have coped with the hot water. Thinking about it, I think the additional side panel on the tank engines was probably to protect the paint work rather than to cool the water as air circulation would have been minimal and the water didn't need cooling, in fact the hotter the better. Peter Edited September 9, 2015 by kirtleypete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Given that Richard is involved in both companies, it would be kind of difficult not to have some cross feeding. I seen to recall that when Richard's appointment was announced there was some sort of 'accord' implied. That Lionheart would continue (as it has) and the o gauge ranges would compliment each other. Also the Terriers had been announce prior to Richard's appointment, so long term plans could have been pre-existing. As you say possibly a good thing by avoiding duplication. Of course this remains conjecture - I could be wrong. True. Depends on his employment T&C's, or if he is merely an outsourced contractor/supplier or not. One would hope that common sense (sense isnt always common) prevails, yet there are still legal implications and in effect Richard W has to wear two hats. I am wondering just how much involvement RW had with the Terrier though? I have just looked through the book Stroudley and his Terriers, in a few cases there a few marks adjacent to the fillers but I think rather than calcium marks these are more likely to be areas that have been polished or rubbed by either the water cranes or general wear by footplate crew as they open the fillers. Water tends to run off or evaporate quite quickly when tanks are filled, have a look next time when you visit a preserved railway. Interesting. Indeed on clean - modern - steam locos this seems to be the case, but lord knows what the paints and chemicals contained back in the day, the question is, on a restored loco is the paint better now (ie without lead) or worse? Here's what the real Terriers looked like in Stroudley livery. This is the picture I used when painting my model. There is water staining on the side tank - that's not from rubbing the water crane hose or whatever, that is water that has run down from the filler cap. There is also quite noticable staining running down the side of the smokebox, but otherwise she's gleaming. It's worth pointing out that she only looked like that on the day the picture was taken; the following day that staining might have been cleaned away and everything was clean again. It is also worth saying that not all Terriers ran around with a white stripe on the side tank, far from it, but enough did to justify adding it to a model. Knowle wasn't alone...... Look how worn tha paint is along the bottom edge of the tank, too. The side of the tank isn't actually the tank at all, it's a plate held by the bolts you can see away from the real side tank to allow air to circulate and cool the water in the tanks which became hot due to the condensing gear. It's not as clear in the picture but Newington also has staining running down the tank side, as well as on the smokebox. The staining is even fainter on 'Brighton', but it is there. Finally.... Piccadilly has beautifully clean side tanks, but just look at the smokebox! It may be that the paint was so damaged by the hot water leaking down it that cleaning it properly was no longer possible. I hope these pictures show that even on a clean, well looked after loco there is still scope for some subtle weathering to make your model stand out from the crowd. i would suggest also doing the following.... paint the axle ends olive green (Tamiya Olive Green is perfect), paint the balance weights olive green between the spokes and paint the tool box lid olive green. Paint the wooden brake blocks brown, and also the cab floor. I hope this helps, Peter What I do note is that when there is marking around the tanks - there is often staining and marking around the smokebox etc. Also note how the loco's bodies are kept clean but workaday and the underframes are mucky - in terms of modelling similarities, this era of Terriers is very akin to coaches. Ie dirty in small areas on the bodywork and muck underneath (with evidence of oil and care apparent too). So, what was the convention regarding the joint in the coupling rods? In Locomotives Illustrated 48 (the only one which I wrote the text for) the illustrations mainly show the joint forward of the centre crankpin, but there is one shot showing the joint aft of the centre. If the wheel spacing was equal, did it not matter? CHRIS LEIGH I was wondering that too Chris, you guys, in MR, did a piece on Terriers circa 2002 and I couldnt find reference to it there either? It would be good to know. Two thoughts: Weathering - there is also evidence that the paint suffered with high heat. Look around some of the clack valves in the (Bennett collection?) pictures above, and on other views showing the cab front above the firebox. Probably all those natural oils being driven out by heat, leaving just dry pigment. Coupling-rod joints - might the rods have been deliberately swapped about, to even out wear in the crank-pin and joint bearings? I have in mind that, even on a tank engine, which might go as far forwards as backwards, the forces in one direction might be subtly different from those in the other, causing differential wear. Kevin Interesting points - well made! The condensing affected the paintwork as well, and not just on the Terriers. The water in tender loco's could reach close to boiling point and tender sides weren't protected by the additional side sheet. There are pictures of tenders with perfect livery along the coal space and almost no paint at all where the water was, it had all burnt off. The shape of the internal division between the two was perfect, as if it has been drawn on. It was only possible to have the water as hot as this because the loco's used axle driven feed pumps to fill the bolier, an injector wouldn't have coped with the hot water. Thinking about it, I think the additional side panel on the tank engines was probably to protect the paint work rather than to cool the water as air circulation would have been minimal and the water didn't need cooling, in fact the hotter the better. Peter Useful and good points. Getting all of these things to translate into model form is the real challenge for most of us LOL! ATVB to one and all.. Edited September 9, 2015 by CME and Bottlewasher Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWCR Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 The cladding on the tank originall covered lagging for insulation not cooling, the pipework from the smokebox took a proportion of the exhaust steam back to the tanks to heat the water, as mentioned above the locos used feed pumps (driven off the crosshead) and hot water contributed to the thermal efficency of the boiler. Excess steam exited via the vent at the tank front. Some benefit from recycling water condensed from the exhaust but this wasnt the principal function. A drawback would be that oil from the exhaust steam would also end up in the tanks. When converted to injectors (which will work with the loco stationary) the feed heating was removed along with tank lagging as cold water was now essential. The external cladding sheets remained however as the actual tank underneath is heavily rivetted and not finished for neat paintwork. The staining on the tank sides could be emulsion, paintwork was cleaned with oil or tallow both of which will produce a white emulsion when mixed with water, this is often seen around steam leaks onto paintwork as well. In the photos above Newington has the rods on with the joint behind the driving wheel, though joint in front seems to be the preffered. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirtleypete Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Interesting - that's not something I'd thought of but it sounds plausible, Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Having looked at all the terriers photos I have, all except Newington have the knuckle at the front. By the time Newington had been sold to the LSWR the knuckle had been relocated at the front and remains to this day as IOWSR W8 Freshwater. I expect for some reason the rods were transposed or maybe a spare was fitted which was from the wrong side unless we have a photo of the other side of the loco at the same date we will never know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Stewart Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 On a related issue I saw a photograph of a War Department terrier taken at Muirton Basin [ US Naval Base 18] in Inverness circa 1919, just curious if the Dapol terrier would be suitable and what colour would the engine have been? Thanks Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirtleypete Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) The Admiralty bought five loco's in all. In 1908 they bought No. 37 'Southdown' and it went to Scotland but worked at Grangemouth docks until after WW1 when it was sold to Dalmore distillery in Ivergorden. In 1918 four were sold; No 38 'Millwall', No 81 'Beulah' and No 83 'Earlswood' went to Scotland and No. 79 'Minories' went to Catterick and then on to Chatham dockyard. The three Scottish ones all moved on to distillery railways in the early 1920's. I have no record of any of them working at Inverness but if there was one it must have been one of these four; however Stroudley designed some very similar loco's for the Highland Railway - could it have been one of those in the picture? If the picture is suitable to post I'd love to see it, none of the books I have contain any information about the loco's working in Scotland. I imagine the Admiralty would have had the loco's repainted, probably in grey, but I don't know; they would have been put through Brighton works before being moved on. Certainly when the K&ESR bought their Terrier it was serviced and repainted at Brighton. The other question is, how did the Terriers get to Scotland? Finally, to answer your question, yes, the Dapol model could certainly be used to model one of the loco's though the 1918 batch might well have been rebuilt as A1X loco's by then so the SR version of the Dapol model would be the one to use. Edit - I've just found this - if the Highland enthusiasts don't know much about them the information probably doesn't exist. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1973 Peter Edited September 10, 2015 by kirtleypete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirtleypete Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) I've lived with my Terrier for three days now and I'm sorry, but I just can't accept the colour. It looks too dull, it doesn't have any impact. So, my loco is now 'Beulah', and is the same colour as my D class 0-4-2T which was matched to pictures of Gladstone. As far as I'm concerned, that's the gold standard. I made new tank sides by adapting my D artwork on the computer and printing them off onto Epsom photo paper. Then I simply cut them out and glued them onto the engine, after scraping off the boltheads. Now my engine hasn't any boltheads, but frankly I don't really care. The rest of the Improved Engine Green paintwork was simply brush painted carefully onto the existing panels, using my own mix of Tamiya acrylics (see my thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/100227-painting-locomotives-without-much-paint/ ).Everything else on the engine is just as it was.... Now my two loco's look right together - it was also the much darker lettering on the Dapol model that looked out of place. I'm not saying my version is better, just that now my engines match. When I get a second Terrier she will be renamed as well, probably Kemptown or Southdown. There are going to be too many Thames and Brighton running around! Peter Edited September 10, 2015 by kirtleypete 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold John B Posted September 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2015 Very nice, Pete. The D1 is lovely. How was the kit? I've built both Wills / SEF and Albion versions in 4mm... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirtleypete Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Pretty good, I'd happily build another. It's surprising how much bigger than the Terrier it is. Peter 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) Peter I love your "no nonsense" approach - I have a bad tendency to agonise over the finer points of everything, so barely get anything done! (And, my nearest and dearest just pointed out that applies to minor DIY jobs even more than model-railway building) Kevin PS: Look Guys, I did fix the kitchen door knob this evening, and I will sort out the problem with the bath plug on Saturday ...... Honest! So, please, no more "agree" with my nearest and dearest's complaints about neglect of DIY; OK? Edited September 10, 2015 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted September 11, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2015 Well after a minor farce with the pre order being lost in Hattons system, which was sorted with apologies and refund of postage without asking, my Thames arrived. Yes it too lost both the black parts on the tank fronts and one number plate but a dab of glue and all sorted. Currently running in on the rollers as sweetly as you could want. Superb model and the rods are the right way round too. My head said SR but I just could resist the original style and it fits the theme better as a light railway acquisition If Dapol sort the packaging then it's near perfect and certainly excellent value and I hope does extremely well for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) I've lived with my Terrier for three days now and I'm sorry, but I just can't accept the colour. It looks too dull, it doesn't have any impact. So, my loco is now 'Beulah', and is the same colour as my D class 0-4-2T which was matched to pictures of Gladstone. As far as I'm concerned, that's the gold standard. I made new tank sides by adapting my D artwork on the computer and printing them off onto Epsom photo paper. Then I simply cut them out and glued them onto the engine, after scraping off the boltheads. Now my engine hasn't any boltheads, but frankly I don't really care. The rest of the Improved Engine Green paintwork was simply brush painted carefully onto the existing panels, using my own mix of Tamiya acrylics (see my thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/100227-painting-locomotives-without-much-paint/ ).Everything else on the engine is just as it was.... Now my two loco's look right together - it was also the much darker lettering on the Dapol model that looked out of place. I'm not saying my version is better, just that now my engines match. When I get a second Terrier she will be renamed as well, probably Kemptown or Southdown. There are going to be too many Thames and Brighton running around! Peter Hi Peter, From the photos the Terrier looks better for it - a nice match with your other loco! And its in the eye of the beholder - so if you are happy thats all that matters - I happen to think that it looks better and with an overall satin sheen it looks right. I have also painted in panels in lighter or darker tones on models - it sounds horrendous, but with light weathering it looks fine. Its the biting on the bullet thats the hardest part..... Peter I love your "no nonsense" approach - I have a bad tendency to agonise over the finer points of everything, so barely get anything done! (And, my nearest and dearest just pointed out that applies to minor DIY jobs even more than model-railway building) Kevin PS: Look Guys, I did fix the kitchen door knob this evening, and I will sort out the problem with the bath plug on Saturday ...... Honest! So, please, no more "agree" with my nearest and dearest's complaints about neglect of DIY; OK? Kevin, I find that perfectionism (or being worried about not being able to achieve such) can = procrastination, that coupled with the prospect of b@llsing up a factory finished model etc etc also = procrastination, yet once under way, even if errors ensue, it isnt life threatening, one learns from it, turns it around and gains pleasure in doing so and a nicer, personalised model too = satisfaction. Monetary value can also hamper modelling progress, I was cured of that when Dad asked me to work on some of his live steam models! Filters are a great aid to changing colour without major c@ckups though. I know some here may not believe this of me, but I hold great store in Jack Ray's saying '...a recognisable model of the prototype running in a credible background' (in precis and not verbatim). Always strive towards continuous improvement but not at the cost of fun or pleasure, its a hobby after all. As for work for swmbo? That's a whole different story - be afraid, be very afraid! LOL! ATVB CME Edited September 11, 2015 by CME and Bottlewasher 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 While raking up grass this morning (something I've been doing nearly all week, so my mind has been wandering a bit!), a couple of questions came to mind that I hope soon fade into oblivion, or could turn out rather expensive! 1) Which, if any, of the current batch are as running in around 1904/1905? Specifically which are contemporary with the K&ESR Bodiam, that was bought in 1900? 2) Are any of the current batch, or futures batches, in the condition (apart from from livery obviously) that K&ESR Rolvendon was in when first running on the K&ESR (1904)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Just got around to making a short video of my sound fitted terrier 'Brighton'. ZIMO sound decoder from Digitrains. https://youtu.be/BUSx7Ox5izM Kind regards, Paul 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now