Sheffield Exchange, Toy trains, music and fun!

[Clive Mortimore]

I have been doing more research into early colour light signalling and remain as confused as I was to start with but I now have some ideas I might pursue.

 

Tonight the train running consisted of moving the stock in the Doncaster sidings to the station, going at least once around the track. I had to double some trains up like an 8 car DMU...lovely. Seeing an eight coach suburban train running has made me think may be some of them should be longer than 4 cars. Later I sent all the trains from the Manchester sidings to Doncaster sidings, but just from one yard to the other.

 

In between running trains I done some trackwork. As regular followers will know I have at long last installed the point motors in both fuddle yards. Tonight I nailed down the track in the Doncaster yard. Manchester tomorrow, then I might think about the platforms.

 

 

But, but what about The Yes Album , Fragile, Close to the Edge and Tales of a  ..........................................okay perhaps you've got a point! How about a bit of Budgie?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0DK6c8bqp8

In my formative years I tired quite hard to fit in with my mates and like the then rock music. I can't dance so I wasn't into disco. I loved reggae and ska , still do. I was more a Bowie, Velvet Underground, Roxy Music, T-Rex  and Iggy Pop fan as  well as

 

[Zomboid]

But, but what about The Yes Album , Fragile, Close to the Edge and Tales of a ..........................................okay perhaps you've got a point! How about a bit of Budgie?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0DK6c8bqp8

The guy who used to clean my windows said he was in Budgie for a while. I forgot his name though. I believed him (and still do) because they seemed a rather obscure band to be making a claim like that about in 2013. I'd only heard the Metallica cover versions at that point.

 

Now I've looked it up, I remembered it a bit wrong. It was Ray Phillips' Six Ton Budgie, and my window cleaner was Tom Prince, who played bass. (Ray Phillips was the guitarist on the first 3 Budgie albums).

Edited December 15, 2018 by Zomboid

[Stubby47]

The guy who used to clean my windows said he was in Budgie for a while. I forgot his name though. I believed him (and still do) because they seemed a rather obscure band to be making a claim like that about in 2013. I'd only heard the Metallica cover versions at that point.

Now I've looked it up, I remembered it a bit wrong. It was Ray Phillips' Six Ton Budgie, and my window cleaner was Tom Prince, who played bass. (Ray Phillips was the guitarist on the first 3 Budgie albums).

My daughter's 2nd bridesmaid's uncle lives next door to the the base player from Slade.

[Zomboid]

I wouldn't have bothered with the story if I'd remembered it right to begin with...

[Clive Mortimore]

Manchester sidings have now had track pins applied and stock moved back.

 

Has anyone made a working colour light theater route indicator in 4mm ? If so how did you do it? 

 

[Mallard60022]

Francis Rossi mended my school's snare drum in December 1985 and one of his songwriting mates' son was in my class at the time. I was called to the hall stage to meet him where he was whilst the Head covered my class!

Edited December 15, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Clive Mortimore]

In my quest to find a 4mm theater route indicator I found a link by Horsetan to a small 9 segment thingy which might be a tad oversize but looks like it could be a goer, and at £1.50 a throw it isn't going to be a waste as an experiment. 

 

The inner home signals are going to be on a cantilever bracket, I found a drawing in an old MRC of an LMS one. I still cannot make up my mind about the platform signals, do I have a forest of post mounted signals, or do I have a set of gantries across the platform ends? I think it will come down to my ability to make some shunt signals using small LEDs. Early LMS colour light schemes used smaller colour light signals as shunting signals not the more modern (late 1930s) 3 position lights.

 

I have had a big stock change, I have moved the period on a couple of years, many of the hauled services have been cahnged to DMUs, there remains a few peak hour suburban hauled trains, a through Grimsby to Manchester train and often seen is a four coach set as a failed DMU replacement. The station is handling less parcels traffic. All this means a reduction of steam locos seen at Exchange, in fact it seems limited to class four tanks and tender locos. The types of diesel seen remain much as before but less of them. Most long distant trains are in the hands of DMUs, as I type a eight car York train is running (4 car Met-Cam + 4 car BRCW) and an eight car Liverpool train ( 2 car Derby +3 car Derby +3 car Met-Cam). The mainline do look good with two long DMUs passing each other.

 

 

The Cleethorpes 2 car class 114 is approaching the station from Doncaster and a 6 car unit from Preston is arriving via the Barnsley line.

[timbowilts]

Clive, as a long time served new-works signal engineer (43 years of it) we always went for the cheapest option that gave necessary sighting of the signals. Posts are cheap but gantries most certainly are not, especially when you factor in the machinery and possessions needed to erect them.

 

Tim T

[Clive Mortimore]

Clive, as a long time served new-works signal engineer (43 years of it) we always went for the cheapest option that gave necessary sighting of the signals. Posts are cheap but gantries most certainly are not, especially when you factor in the machinery and possessions needed to erect them.

 

Tim T

Hi Tim

 

Thanks.

 

My problem being I have to make them.

 

This is what a typical post on the end of each platform would be like, it is early 1930s signalling so both routes would be signaled.

 

 

If I was to mount them on a gantry it would be easier for me.

 

 

Plus a gantry spread across the end of all the platforms would look impressive.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[5BarVT]

My problem being I have to make them.

Wrong region I know, (you’ll need your errant w/* key!) but the 30s signals at Paddington were on semaphore type brackets (google ‘Paddington locomotive’ brings up some photos). Could you use Ratio LMS signal kits as a basis.

Paul.

[Clive Mortimore]

Wrong region I know, (you’ll need your errant w/* key!) but the 30s signals at Paddington were on semaphore type brackets (google ‘Paddington locomotive’ brings up some photos). Could you use Ratio LMS signal kits as a basis.

Paul.

Hi Paul

 

Thanks. I was looking at GWR colour light signals, as well as SR and LNER because most of these early schemes had the then leading firms in world railway signalling involved so there was quite a bit of crossover. I purchased a bunch of Eckon signals and was going to use them as a basis, without the shunting signals but I have decided to have a go at making the shunting signals as at Manchester Exchange/Victoria and Brighton. I am not too sure how can add the lower down shunting signals.

 

I have the platforms (3&4) with the center road between them and there isn't space for a post for the center road and thinking the other night, and finding a couple of photos of LMS gantries with colour light signals it might be a goer. I have dug out the gantry I built for Exchange Mk1 and put on the ends of where platform 3 and 4 are and it looks good. 

 

Now if I were extra clever I would be able to add the shunt and calling on signals as found at Liverpool St, Kings Cross, York and I think Newcastle as installed by the LNER.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[jimwal]

Clive, platform starters on posts give more flexibility in placing. If the platforms and clearance points vary in position you couldn't use a gantry without wasting platform length. This usually important on most layouts. So to use a gantry in this location may look nice but be unusual.

[St Enodoc]

Hi Paul

 

Thanks. I was looking at GWR colour light signals, as well as SR and LNER because most of these early schemes had the then leading firms in world railway signalling involved so there was quite a bit of crossover. I purchased a bunch of Eckon signals and was going to use them as a basis, without the shunting signals but I have decided to have a go at making the shunting signals as at Manchester Exchange/Victoria and Brighton. I am not too sure how can add the lower down shunting signals.

 

I have the platforms (3&4) with the center road between them and there isn't space for a post for the center road and thinking the other night, and finding a couple of photos of LMS gantries with colour light signals it might be a goer. I have dug out the gantry I built for Exchange Mk1 and put on the ends of where platform 3 and 4 are and it looks good. 

 

Now if I were extra clever I would be able to add the shunt and calling on signals as found at Liverpool St, Kings Cross, York and I think Newcastle as installed by the LNER.

Probably not the cheapest solution, but how about bodging Eckon/Berko 4 mm scale heads for the main aspects and N scale ones for the smaller ones?

[Clive Mortimore]

Clive, platform starters on posts give more flexibility in placing. If the platforms and clearance points vary in position you couldn't use a gantry without wasting platform length. This usually important on most layouts. So to use a gantry in this location may look nice but be unusual.

Hi Jim

 

The ends of the platforms 2 and 3 is very limited for signal space and to allow the maximum train length. I want all platforms to be able to accommodate an 8 coach long underframe DMU (or EMU) . When I was sorting out the signals, I found that I had to place platform 3's heads on a higher post so that they cleared the train, I ma not sure if there is room for the shunt signals as well. A gantry would place platform 2s signals over the tracks. Platform 3's would be tucked in the corner where the upright meets the cross member so again out the way. The center road signals would also be on the gantry, would that have only shut signals or main?

 

Until the train ran backwards at Kings Cross 1947 (?) the 1930s colour light signals were on a gantry that ran  across the ends of all the platforms. It was taken down because of the damage sustained in the accident. The suburban platforms retained their gantry. Liverpool Lime Street resignalling of 1947 was a mix of gantries and cantilevers. So gantries would be fitting for the time period of the signalling I am trying to recreate. They will not take up platform space as they will be at the ends of the ramps, there isn't the physical space to place two signal post with twin heads in the same space between platform 2 and 3.

[Clive Mortimore]

Probably not the cheapest solution, but how about bodging Eckon/Berko 4 mm scale heads for the main aspects and N scale ones for the smaller ones?

Hi John

 

I looked at that and a £20 plus for an N gauge signal I thought Ummmmm. At a few pence each for the LEDs it might be easier to scratchbuild the heads as the amount of work involved would be nearly the same.

[timbowilts]

Clive, just caught up with this thread re signals this morning (just!).

You could have a tee structure at the end of each platform with two sets of heads on it?

Regarding the centre road, if a loco can be signalled “right away” off along the mains, i.e. not just shunting, then you will need a main aspect otherwise a simple ground mounted shunt head will suffice.

 

Tim T

[Stubby47]

Irrespective of prototypical fidelity, I think a gantry will look quite impressive.

 

For feathers and matrix-type things have you seen what Ron Heggs was doing a couple of years ago?

[Clive Mortimore]

Thanks Tim

 

Here is the proposed signals if post mounted.

 

And if gantry mounted, the center road can be modelled/signaled “right away” off along the mains. There is no physical means of fitting a post in the above situation.

 

 

I like the idea of a tee post with four (eight) head on it, for an early colour light scheme it would be quite heavily engineered.

 

Edit signals 6 and 7 are post mounted on the second plan as to maximise the run-round on platform 4.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Zomboid]

Do you need shunt signals/aspects on the right-line arrival tracks, for moves into any platforms which may already be occupied?

[Clive Mortimore]

Do you need shunt signals/aspects on the right-line arrival tracks, for moves into any platforms which may already be occupied?

Hi Zom

 

Thanks. That is not a situation I have considered. Do you mean something like a short DMU is in the platform and a second one is parked behind/in front of it? Possibly being coupled to make a longer train. I am not sure I can actually do that. The isolating sections are just over a loco long and if a DMU's power car is at the other end of the train then  I cannot isolate it unless I completely isolate a platform. Quiet in the cheap seats, I know I could do it if I was DCC.  As it isn't something I had planned then that is why I haven't thought about or added shunt signals.

 

All shunting moves, mainly locos to and from both yards, are done on the exit lines. 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

To lighten my load (had to dive into Vitruvius De Architectura and Petrach... ) today I have been enjoying this

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

But, but what about The Yes Album , Fragile, Close to the Edge and Tales of a  ..........................................okay perhaps you've got a point! How about a bit of Budgie?

 

 

Pedant mode.

It's Tales from a..........

 

Mike.

[Zomboid]

Hi Zom

 

Thanks. That is not a situation I have considered. Do you mean something like a short DMU is in the platform and a second one is parked behind/in front of it? Possibly being coupled to make a longer train. I am not sure I can actually do that. The isolating sections are just over a loco long and if a DMU's power car is at the other end of the train then I cannot isolate it unless I completely isolate a platform. Quiet in the cheap seats, I know I could do it if I was DCC. As it isn't something I had planned then that is why I haven't thought about or added shunt signals.

 

All shunting moves, mainly locos to and from both yards, are done on the exit lines.

It would be for moves like that, or locos arriving from somewhere other than the Sheffield exchange loco sidings to take a train out.

I'm pretty sure that shunt aspects are used at Waterloo when putting a train into an occupied platform, so I assume that's the normal procedure. Maybe you'll never actually use it, but I suspect that BR would have.

I'm sure someone who knows what they're on about will be along to correct me and say that main aspects were used for that kind of thing and the applicable dates etc...

[timbowilts]

Zomboid, you’ve got it correct. Main aspects are only allowed into totally empty platforms. Subsidiary aspects, officially called “calling on” aspects, are displayed when entering a platform that is already occupied.

 

Clive also remember that it was past practice to give a GREEN aspect up to a set of buffer stops at termini until some time in the late 70’s

 

Tim T

[Stubby47]

It shouldn't be too arduous to add a specific isolation section to one platform line, should it?