OO Gauge class 71 Electric Locomotive

[Downendian]

Is this a typo? Are you really wondering about buying D5010 (class 24) or did you mean E5010 (class 71)?

Haha I edited it Budgie before you posted, I seem to put D in front of everything force of habit. Of course if SLW produce more 24s then I will spend to support their venture, as I intend to do with DJM.

Neil

[saveric]

Hi mate,

Have you read earlier in the thread about 'tuning' your decoder to suit coreless motors?

Cheers

Dave

Ifyou could send me a link please because i cant seem to find the topic through search.

Regards

Saveric.

[luke_stevens]

Took delivery of my weathered 71 today. Lovely model with exquisite moulding (particularly the bogies) and fine details (pantograph).

 

There was a couple of oil marks on the body which slightly marred the weathered finish, but the faded with gently rubbing with a slightly damp cotton bud.

 

The one thing that is a slight concern is that the loco is developing a slight surging effect. It can't be heard but I can see it slightly pulsing at about once per wheel revolution.

 

It's unchipped at the moment and I delicately placed a couple fo drops of oil on the gears as instructed.

 

Has anyone experience something similar? And has anyone got a suggestion as to what is causing it and / or suggestions of how to stop it?

 

It seems like a slight binding in one of the gear towers / bogies but I may be wrong.

 

Thanks

 

Luke

 

PS it is not at all sufficient to return it!

[Dogmatix]

Since I also have an ESU Lokpilot (no sound) waiting for my 71 to arrive, I would be interested in knowing which CV values I should set to what to stop it leaping about like a Great American Jackalope. If anyone has found a suitable set of values, could he/she please share them here?

Edited June 1, 2017 by Dogmatix

[andybuttterworth1962]

Hi Dave

Well done and congratulations on the venture.

Got mine in the post yesterday - it is a masterpiece! 

 

Running in nicely before fitting sound from Biff.

 

Ordered a 2nd 74 to get the numbers going.

 

Regards

Andy

[7013]

RFS in post 1896 offers help in tuning a Lenz silver to work smoothly with a coreless motor.

Oh and just to update, I caved in and ordered E5004 for no other reason than it looks superb. I will be fitting a Lenz Silver, as I live close to A & H I will probably ask Chris to do the fine tuning for the coreless motor.

Edited May 27, 2017 by 7013

[JSpencer]

Having decided not to go for the crowd funding option, preferring to see the "model in the flesh" so to speak, especially with the Hornby model already out (Andy Ys side by side comparison with the Hornby model was very helpful), I'm torn between ordering the GFYE E5010 or putting my money down for my much preferred option, the class 74.

I only saw 4 class 71s in store at Hither Green in November 1978, but 74s I have much more sightings in my spotting notes. Perplexed - help needed

Neil

My instinct would point you to a 74 if you cannot afford both!

[SRman]

I tried fitting the lifting lugs to E5003 experimentally and they cleared all of the tight spots on my layout, including all of the platform edges. However, I didn't think they looked right, because they stuck out too far even when pushed in as far as I could get them without damaging the bogies with too much force.

After looking carefully at close-up photos of the real ones, I decided that I could trim the fittings a bit and slot them in at a more realistic angle with a spot of glue, while still allowing sufficient bogie swing. The result is below.

 

[Dave Scott]

Took delivery of my weathered 71 today. Lovely model with exquisite moulding (particularly the bogies) and fine details (pantograph).

 

There was a couple of oil marks on the body which slightly marred the weathered finish, but the faded with gently rubbing with a slightly damp cotton bud.

 

The one thing that is a slight concern is that the loco is developing a slight surging effect. It can't be heard but I can see it slightly pulsing at about once per wheel revolution.

 

It's unchipped at the moment and I delicately placed a couple fo drops of oil on the gears as instructed.

 

Has anyone experience something similar? And has anyone got a suggestion as to what is causing it and / or suggestions of how to stop it?

 

It seems like a slight binding in one of the gear towers / bogies but I may be wrong.

 

Thanks

 

Luke

 

PS it is not at all sufficient to return it!

Are you running DC or DCC. I run DC and got jerky running on an old ECM controller but not on a gaugemaster. If running DCC there appears to be a need to tune the decoder to the coreless motor. See posts in this thread

[DJM Dave]

Are you running DC or DCC. I run DC and got jerky running on an old ECM controller but not on a gaugemaster. If running DCC there appears to be a need to tune the decoder to the coreless motor. See posts in this thread

Isn't the ECM a feedback controller?

The one I used to have was.

[cctransuk]

Are you running DC or DCC. I run DC and got jerky running on an old ECM controller but not on a gaugemaster. If running DCC there appears to be a need to tune the decoder to the coreless motor. See posts in this thread

 

Not specific to the Class 71, but I recently took delivery of one of the coreless motors available on Ebay.

 

Testing it on a H&M Walkabout it is noisy, coggy and jerky to a totally unacceptable extent; on straight DC from an old Tri-ang controller it is smooth and virtually silent.

 

It would seem that these coreless motors are *much* pickier about the form of power supplied than are the conventional type of motors; I'll be sticking to traditional motors wherever possible!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[ianthetrog]

Well mine arrived this morning and after all the excitement and anticipation I am a little disappointed.  There were a few (admittedly minor) problems with the paint work, but given the price I found that surprising. Since I was going to weather the loco on its own that might not have mattered, but with a good quality ESU chip fitted it ran like a pig.  Jerking at low speed and sounding like a tank. I'm hoping it is just a one off but back to Kernow with it. 

Regards

Saveric

Mines exactly the same. Had a long series of emails with Dave Jones re. CV settings but it still sounds like an old diesel tractor ticking over & jerks like a very jerky thing at low speed. Mines going back as well.

[Dave Scott]

Isn't the ECM a feedback controller?

The one I used to have was.s

Yes it probably is. I lost the paperwork long ago as it dates from the 80s. As I said before a new Gaugemaster solved the problem

[Dave Scott]

Mines exactly the same. Had a long series of emails with Dave Jones re. CV settings but it still sounds like an old diesel tractor ticking over & jerks like a very jerky thing at low speed. Mines going back as well.

I would seriously suggest that before sending it back you try it on DC from a non feedback controller to decide if a loco problem or a decoder problem

[Oldddudders]

I would seriously suggest that before sending it back you try it on DC from a non feedback controller to decide if a loco problem or a decoder problem

It is an odd fact of our hobby that people spend serious wonga on a locomotive or several, but stick by the controller they have always used. Investing in a new and more compatible controller (I refer to DC, I am not preaching about converting to DCC) is a great deal more sensible than missing out on models which won't work well with your existing one.

[No Decorum]

It is an odd fact of our hobby that people spend serious wonga on a locomotive or several, but stick by the controller they have always used. Investing in a new and more compatible controller (I refer to DC, I am not preaching about converting to DCC) is a great deal more sensible than missing out on models which won't work well with your existing one.

Hm. I think my objection to wongaing a new controller is that everything works as well as it is going to using existing controllers except these coreless motors. I can see the point in using one for small locomotives but I cannot for the life of me see any advantage in using one in a locomotive with more space. These 71s seem to require a lot of tinkering. Contrast them with the 68s from DJ’s alma mater.

 

If we do get a new controller which suits this machine, for all we know it may create problems with our other stock.

 

For what it’s worth, I have wongaed to my third DCC system and can’t remember offhand how many DC contollers I have lying about.

[Ian Hargrave]

The issue of coreless motors and their non compatibility with feedback controllers has been with us for decades.Trix used Faulhaber motors in some of their models of 19thC locos at least 20 years ago .They are necessarily tiny to fit into very small HO models....and work very well indeed.The first thing I did was to replace my feedback controller with a Gaugemaster because I was warned of the consequences.This was,I believe about 1998.....when DCC was in its infancy in the UK.

[ianthetrog]

I would seriously suggest that before sending it back you try it on DC from a non feedback controller to decide if a loco problem or a decoder problem

I dont possess a DC controller of any sort. so cant test it that way. I started this lark a few years ago, going with DCC from the start & this is the first time, with any loco, from any company, that I have had such problems. To be frank, I cant be bothered with all this messing about with CV's etc. I just want the bloody things to work, out of the box, like they should.

[Roy Langridge]

I dont possess a DC controller of any sort. so cant test it that way. I started this lark a few years ago, going with DCC from the start & this is the first time, with any loco, from any company, that I have had such problems. To be frank, I cant be bothered with all this messing about with CV's etc. I just want the bloody things to work, out of the box, like they should.

Well you can hardly blame DJ then can you? It is a case of RTFM. Buy a suitable DC controller or blame yourself, nobody else. It is only a matter of time before you have this issue with another loco.

 

If you are not prepared to "mess with CVs" then you will never get the most out of DCC.

 

Roy

[40F]

I dont possess a DC controller of any sort. so cant test it that way. I started this lark a few years ago, going with DCC from the start & this is the first time, with any loco, from any company, that I have had such problems. To be frank, I cant be bothered with all this messing about with CV's etc. I just want the bloody things to work, out of the box, like they should.

 

The most common advice given re DCC is to always test on DC BEFORE putting the loco to DCC. Normally any problems found can be ironed out .

[mikesndbs]

Feedback controllers were designed to make up for sticking mechanisms and voltage drops.

Some, like the KPC and Orbit were very good while others sounded like they were hitting the armature with a hammer.

Now as we approach 2018 its reasonable to assume things will change.

For the record, I have been using my 71 on a Safety Minor by H&M proper and the loco runs smoothly and controllably.

Its just feedback and cheap PWM controllers that are no good for a coreless motor because they are not designed to work with it, the coreless motor can not give the controller the required feedback so it gets battered by the controller thinking its stalled.

I think we will see many more models using coreless in time, so a bit of upgrading or just acceptance will future proof you.

 

 

[Roy Langridge]

Feedback controllers were designed to make up for sticking mechanisms and voltage drops.

Some, like the KPC and Orbit were very good while others sounded like they were hitting the armature with a hammer.

Now as we approach 2018 its reasonable to assume things will change.

For the record, I have been using my 71 on a Safety Minor by H&M proper and the loco runs smoothly and controllably.

Its just feedback and cheap PWM controllers that are no good for a coreless motor because they are not designed to work with it, the coreless motor can not give the controller the required feedback so it gets battered by the controller thinking its stalled.

I think we will see many more models using coreless in time, so a bit of upgrading or just acceptance will future proof you.

But to me the issue here is not one of coreless motors, it is that the OP has no DC controller at all. Yes for the 71 he needs something that will work with coreless.

 

He wants locos that work "out of the box" which of course the DJ 71 may well do, but he has no means to prove that one way or another.

 

Roy

[stovepipe]

Don't worry I think you've chased him off. All 7 posts on this subject, I doubt he'll be back to RMweb for help.

[Budgie]

So I've reverted to the Lenz Silver decoder. There are a couple of parameters with the Lenz for coreless motors but they're not well documented. Setting bit 6 in CV50 increases the maximum speed, and increasing the BEMF sampling in CV9 improves the BEMF accuracy too. CV9 has a range of 0-63 with a default of 15.  So I've tried the loco with CV9=63 and CV50=32 and performance is much better.  It reaches 62mph but on speed step 110 after which it will not go any faster.  Here's the output from Traincontroller's profiling (vertical axis is speed, horizontal is speed step, left is backward, right is forward):

I'd like to say thank you very much for this post. I've done the same myself with the Silver 21+, and I get similar results, but with 69 mph maximum speed; these results are much better than what I had before.

[Roy Langridge]

Don't worry I think you've chased him off. All 7 posts on this subject, I doubt he'll be back to RMweb for help.

He had an interesting way of asking for help.

 

Roy