Bachmann NRM/Locomotionmodels.com - GNR Ivatt C1

[ikks]

Well as I've said before there are two sides to the argument. Yes costs have gone up but Rapido are able to produce a 4 car tilting train with lights through the same sales channel for £225. DJ a Q6 for £135. Presumably Dave is making an acceptable profit, and allowing for a margin at the retailer. These models will also have research and preparation I'm sure to a more than acceptable standard. So in this context £180 seems a bit steep. On the other hand I think the responses show that even for a Limited Edition £180 is approaching or beyond the level people will pay.perhaps the glass ceiling has been reached. We could go into macroeconomics but undoubtably lack of pay increases while living costs rise and disposable income drops is a major factor here. Even Hornby gets that!

 

Finally there is some canny marketing going on. No indications of quantities being produced, whether it will be produced in future years , the intention being given that this is a unique opportunity , jump on the boat or lose out. People are not daft , and are increasingly cynical,they deserve a full explanation so they can make an informed choice.

 

I'm still swithering .i can afford it but can I justify paying that for something that will probably stay in its box for most of the year? Not sure it's Value For Money for me. But we will see just how popular it is. I note there are still some Compounds available from Locomotion at £140, so they haven't moved that fast.

Apologies to all for going O/T but does anyone know if the compound in the forthcoming train set is the same as the NRM model.

 C1 Fabulous loco, congratulations Bachmann/NRM..........just got to win the lottery!!

 

Rgds....Mike

[Andy Y]

Blaming the workforce ? what other excuses with any actual evidence have Bachmann given for a hike of 20% + in their prices I havent read any so far. Only Bachmann et al know what a proper costed market price is, I would love to see what that price structure is !!

 

As to charitable institutions created for us , well they rely on us to buy their products perhaps they think we are are a charity set up to pay them anything they like to charge.

As said before if they cut their profit margins they might ? then sell more goods. As it is now becoming now many people will walk away. They are living in a bubble, playing the get in now because we cant make anymore game at set prices at any level they think the market will bear.  If that is not scare tactics which I think it is , then its a very convenient sales method and a poorly veiled excuse for their prices hikes.

 

Want it cheap ? is irrelevant when the buyer simply hasnt got the money.

 

Newcomers of any age will have a look and in many case will never look again. If that continues the hobby and the associated companies will die.

 

The companies are putting prices at the tipping point once that tips au revoir. 

 

Sorry Mick, we've gone to extensive lengths on here to explain the facts behind price rises so there is evidence. You can choose whether to buy or not or even to have (yet another) grumble about it but it's not acceptable to infer there's some conspiracy theory going on with fat cats milking modellers. I've not met a fat cat in this hobby, I see a lot of hard-working people who care about their products, the hobby and their businesses. If they don't make money you won't have anything to buy from them full stop and we cannot deny them the right to run a business which supports itself, pays its staff and suppliers and invests for the future. It's a perilous enough balance in some cases and it doesn't need a fine analytical mind to see that some quite big names may not be around in a few years unless they become profitable. I know such negative reactions frustrate the hell out of manufacturers who are trying their level best to manage costs and appeal to the marketplace.

 

Next time go and see the MD of one of the companies and tell him he shouldn't increase prices and see what he says.

[Ian Hargrave]

Blaming the workforce ? what other excuses with any actual evidence have Bachmann given for a hike of 20% + in their prices I havent read any so far. Only Bachmann et al know what a proper costed market price is, I would love to see what that price structure is !!

 

As to charitable institutions created for us , well they rely on us to buy their products perhaps they think we are are a charity set up to pay them anything they like to charge.

As said before if they cut their profit margins they might ? then sell more goods. As it is now becoming now many people will walk away. They are living in a bubble, playing the get in now because we cant make anymore game at set prices at any level they think the market will bear.  If that is not scare tactics which I think it is , then its a very convenient sales method and a poorly veiled excuse for their prices hikes.

 

Want it cheap ? is irrelevant when the buyer simply hasnt got the money.

 

Newcomers of any age will have a look and in many case will never look again. If that continues the hobby and the associated companies will die.

 

The companies are putting prices at the tipping point once that tips au revoir.

 

I think you just said you won't be buying one....

[CUTLER2579]

Reality check time!

 

When will folk get it into their heads that the era of superb quality RTR models at rock bottom prices is over.

 

The options are to produce downgraded models with less detail and lower spec. mechanisms or increase the prices. Manufacturers are tinkering with both routes at the moment and whatever they do, people have a pop at them because they are used to high quality and low prices and don't want things to change. Such people need to wake up. Things have changed. Bleating about it on a forum will not make the world go back to how it was a few years ago.

 

Compare the price of this to just about any equivalent mainland Europe or American loco and it is a bargain.

 

Sure, it is more than we are used to paying but it is a limited edition special at a very good price.

 

If there are enough people wanting to purchase them at that price (and the initial reaction makes me think that there are enough, even I have made a rare visit to the wallet) then exactly why should Bachmann produce and sell them for less than that. All it would do is reduce their already poor profits.

 

Now look at the price of a DJH kit, with a decent motor, gearbox and wheels and you are looking at somewhere around the same cost.

 

As with all these things, we have an easy and free choice of at least three possible options. We can buy one. We can keep our money and not have one. We can whinge about it (this option can be used in conjunction with either of the first two).

 

So anybody who doesn't want to pay that price, don't! Nobody is forcing you. There are lots of things in this world I would like to have but can't afford. I choose not to moan about it and I get a little fed up when I see "I really want one but I am unable (which actually means unwilling) to pay the price" postings.

 

Tony

 

 

Now steady on Old Boy the Yorkshireman in you seems to be diluting.  Opening  your wallet outside of Sheffield Ice Arena  or December !!    Unheard of.  :no:

 

You need a nurse at home.

[t-b-g]

Now steady on Old Boy the Yorkshireman in you seems to be diluting.  Opening  your wallet outside of Sheffield Ice Arena  or December !!    Unheard of.  :no:

 

You need a nurse at home.

 

Got one (a nurse that is). She doesn't know about the Atlantic......... and I hope it stays that way. I will build up to it being a Christmas present  "Would you like to get me something for the railway..... I have just the thing in mind".

 

Apparently wallet opening is bad for my health (but only if she finds out about it!).

 

And I am only a Yorkshireman by residence, not birth!

[Ian J.]

The way I see it, we have to stop thinking there is only one model railway market, that is a high-detail low-cost one. I don't see car manufacturers having only one car market. They make models to suit different budgets, with the best quality ones up at the high end. Even Skoda do that. Though their relative prices are lower compared to other manufacturers, Skoda still have higher priced models where the quality is better.

 

So perhaps it is with Bachmann and Hornby as the two main manufacturers. They need to be aware of the higher and lower ends and produce products accordingly. Hornby seem to have previously given the lower end more attention recently, while Bachmann are slipping towards the higher end. Where NRM commissions come in is like having a handbuilt car department sitting alongside a normal manufacturing line (a bit like Ford and Aston Martin ?). Just because the C1 is within a major manufacturer's domain doesn't mean the price will automatically be within everyone's grasp, especially if there is a desire not to compromise on detail and quality.

[coachmann]

Personally I look at it this way, if I wanted a GNR Atlantic, I could buy a kit and build & paint it, pay someone to scratchbuild me one and still have to paint it, or buy a fully completed RTR model produced by Bachmann. Of all three options, I know the Bachmann model will be the best I could ever hope to get. Why? Well because it will have a perfectly formed running plate, be squarely built, and have superb rivet detail etc etc, plus the mechanism will be second to none. I should add to that painting & lining that is beyond even that of a professional painter! And the most exciting part is, it will be by far the cheapest option. I know it sounds insulting but I cannot think of more appropriate advice than for moaners to get real. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by coachmann

[31A]

All the very best to Locomotion, the NRM and Bachmann with this project!  I've already got an Atlantic, built many years ago from a K's kit, but I'm sure it'll look pretty crude alongside one of these.  One part of me hopes however that they don't all sell out too quickly, then I might be able to save up and buy one of each because at the moment I can't choose which one to order!  None of them strictly fit into the time frame of my layout but I can justify any, all or none of them somehow or other.....

[Guest spet0114]

A lot of previous posts have made requests for reassurances.

 

One thing that can be assured of is that whenever you buy one of the C1s, some money will go to the NRM and be used for the upkeep of the National Collection.

 

This is one of the main reasons why I really enjoy it when NRM / Locomotion have new products - I get a new toy, they get a donation. Everyone wins.

 

The only downside is that my model collection now has very little in the way of a 'theme'. That said, the option of a 4mm NRM layout grows ever more tempting......

 

Cheers
Adrian

[Andy Hayter]

A number of posts refer to limited edition and a lack of information on how many will be produced.  Try as I might I can find no official reference to a limited edition - maybe I missed it.  Exclusive, yes: limited, no.

 

Of course the reality is that the production runs will be limited to a number to cover the orders and the model is likely to be a WIGIG - When it's gone, it's gone.

 

While I do feel for those who cannot afford or justify to themselves the cost of this model, to blame Bachmann, NRM or Chinese workers for that is just stupid.  I cannot justify the cost of Fulgurex models, but I don't blame them and I definitely cannot afford a coveted Aston Martin, but that is not their fault.

 

Despite the negative posts on costs, I think I have seen as many if not more "I have/will order one" posts regarding this model than were posted in the first day after the announcement of the GCR 9J - which sold out in 3 weeks (504 models).  I remain unconvinced that this will be anything other than a roaring success.  Oh and I have ordered one and am seriously considering whether I can justify a second - but if I cannot justify it, then the only person to blame is me.

[micklner]

I think you just said you won't be buying one....

 

I think my point are being missed understood. I am not whinging about the prices , excess profit levels, quality or anything else. The result of this is :-

 

 

The days of this hobby are numbered, as the prices in the long term are unsustainable.

[Guest spet0114]

I think my point are being missed understood. I am not whinging about the prices , excess profit levels, quality or anything else. The result of this is :-

 

 

The days of this hobby are numbered, as the prices in the long term are unsustainable.

Why?

 

Prices are only approaching those on the continent - where a sustainable market exists.

[Arthur]

 

And if they don't make a profit the days of RTR manufacturers are numbered.

[Markeg]

If people think this is too expensive then as t-b-g has stated, look at the equivalent in the US and Continent and also here Australia.

 

Eureka Models in Australia have released a r-t-r NSW Garratt at around $700 and a r-t-r Victorian Railways R class (4-6-4) at $750.  This is about GBP 390 for the Garratt and GBP450.

 

I understand it is the top end of some people budget, but if you want one, sacrifice something else.  I cancelled some coaches and a loco because of  budget constraints.

 

Remember some of this cost goes into the preservation of the items in the National Railway Museum that you so enjoy and have free access too. 

 

I need to get off the computer because my wife needs to do something on it, so that it for me.

 

 

Mark in Oz

[JSpencer]

I think my point are being missed understood. I am not whinging about the prices , excess profit levels, quality or anything else. The result of this is :-

 

 

The days of this hobby are numbered, as the prices in the long term are unsustainable.

 

I disagree, Hornby already are addressing the lower end with cheaper less detailed models. They have also invented TTS sound and stuck it into some of the most popular classes.

 

You can pick up a sound fitted P2 which is bigger than and £40 less than the C1. But this is like comparing apples to oranges. The former being a less fitted detailed, generic release while the latter is refined NRM exclusive.

 

Note that, in practice, there is nothing to stop Hornby from doing a railroad C1 if they thought it would be popular enough.

 

Others have said the NRM compound is already too expensive and did not sell. Maybe. But the compound I think is a less popular subject, it also exists in railroad format and even on the secondhand market from the 1980s version.

 

I personally estimated the C1 at £160, was a bit surprised at the £180 mark therefore felt it a bit expensive and certainly do not think that it should become the norm as such for mainstream model. I don't expect the NRM exclusives to cater for the lower end so I still ordered one, only because I want one. 

 

With Hornby being the number 1 payer in the UK, they are sort of obliged to cater for both upper and lower ends of the Market and hopefully are coming out of their crisis years. With Bachmann now going through the same, how Bachmann will eventually position themselves now, we will have to wait and see and I can see some dificult strategic decisions to make in the coming years. 

[gr.king]

I recognised several years ago that in the case of most tender locos the all-in new cost of a modern kit and supporting parts was going to be top side of £200, plus the time/cost/trouble of building it, however one values that. That realisation was part of the reason why I started looking at the possibility of converting some of the (then) sub-£100 RTR offerings to produce other locos, more often than not saving myself a lot of cost and most of the trouble involved in a full livery application. £180 for a model of a seemingly only moderately sized tender loco may be a bitter pill to swallow compared to say a "Flying Fox", in unopened box, being offered at a show for clearance at just £55 by a retailer around 5 years ago, but £180 is unfortunately a more realistic price for a quality model assembled by a workforce that is beginning to enjoy some of the rights and privileges that we in the UK take for granted.

You could in fact scratchbuild the model for a lower MATERIALS cost if you are willing and able to do it. Use of a lined green spare Hornby A3 wheelset along with Hornby gears and new cheapo 3-pole flywheel motor would cut costs quite a bit. Unfortunately, if you can't or won't build, then the current reality is that IF you want the latest NRM model, then £180 is the price.

I cannot complain about those in other forms of work now expecting to be paid a decent wage, I too feel that I am entitled to a great deal more for the professional work that I do, even if the state of the economy and cynical government manipulation now ensures that I shall never get a proper professional salary.The only people whose levels of remuneration I do object to are those in top-notch "leadership" positions because they are said to be the only ones of the "calibre required" yet who fail miserably only to be still given a gigantic bonus and/or another top job to wreck - and that has little to do with model loco prices.

Edited July 30, 2014 by gr.king

[The Black Hat]

As far as Bachmann is concerned, Southern is somewhat neglected in comparison to the North Eastern with 2 pages of locos vs 8 in the catalogue.

 

There been some Bachmann announcements that Im not aware of?

[Paul Cram]

I think my point are being missed understood. I am not whinging about the prices , excess profit levels, quality or anything else. The result of this is :-

 

 

The days of this hobby are numbered, as the prices in the long term are unsustainable.

If you mean buying RTR models you may be right but if you mean 4mm modelling then you are wrong. I have been modelling in 4mm for 40 years and until recently I had not bought any RTR models. I have 2 Hornby teak coaches and while they are very nice I prefer the Kirk ones I built. I may even sell them.

[7013]

Agree with Tony on post 451, the days of the £ 80-90 loco appear to be fast receding, my C class 592 cost £ 64, my recent 251? Cost £ 90+. The world we live in now works on lower volume with higher prices, we have to get used to it. I do think we will see one of the big manufacturers go under in the next few years, let's face it the likes of Mainline, Airfix, Lima & Wrenn all produced fine locos for their time but have all slipped into history. Manufacturers are now having to tread a fine line between quality and price. Despite the fact many modellers can and do detail their locos once bought. However I think I can safely say we all appreciate exquisite detail on our locos and poorly detailed locos are found wanting when it comes to public opinion.

Once upon a time I would wait for a loco to hit the market then shop around or buy one at an exhibition, I rarely pre-ordered. Nowadays it is almost a prerequisite to pre-order if you want to guarantee getting a particular model. However one thing I do now is review my pre-orders every few months to see if I still want a particular model.

I recently swapped a Merchant Navy for a Falcon, we both got what we wanted, no money changed hands and we were both happy. Swap meets are usually anything but, however maybe it's time we started a genuine swap site whereby modellers could state what they want and offer what they have to swap? At least modellers could hopefully get what they wanted without spending money and save for the new models? Just a thought now that money is getting tighter.

Edited July 30, 2014 by 7013

[coachmann]

The days of this hobby are numbered, as the prices in the long term are unsustainable.

The NRM commissions a RTR GNR Atlantic from Bachmann and is greeted by statements like the one above. For goodness sakes, be happy!  I am surprised by some members. 

[Dunsignalling]

A number of posts refer to limited edition and a lack of information on how many will be produced.  Try as I might I can find no official reference to a limited edition - maybe I missed it.  Exclusive, yes: limited, no.

 

Of course the reality is that the production runs will be limited to a number to cover the orders and the model is likely to be a WIGIG - When it's gone, it's gone.

 

While I do feel for those who cannot afford or justify to themselves the cost of this model, to blame Bachmann, NRM or Chinese workers for that is just stupid.  I cannot justify the cost of Fulgurex models, but I don't blame them and I definitely cannot afford a coveted Aston Martin, but that is not their fault.

 

Despite the negative posts on costs, I think I have seen as many if not more "I have/will order one" posts regarding this model than were posted in the first day after the announcement of the GCR 9J - which sold out in 3 weeks (504 models).  I remain unconvinced that this will be anything other than a roaring success.  Oh and I have ordered one and am seriously considering whether I can justify a second - but if I cannot justify it, then the only person to blame is me.

I think it's fair to sympathise with those for whom rising prices really have moved models they want out of reach.

 

Assuming that no one else is negatively affected by such spending, those who have the cash but "cannot justify" spending so much money on a model are making a personal value judgement. Fair enough, but don't pretend you are standing on any kind of moral high ground.

 

I've never been able to "justify" buying new cars when I can get a near-perfect 3-year old one for half the price. I consider that buying a new one and having to chase up any warranty issues when I can save money by letting someone else do it is plain daft but the whole system would collapse if everybody thought the same way! 

 

John

[railroadbill]

There are people on this forum who have been in the game as it were for many years, in fact I was reading articles and books some  were writing about model and prototype railways back in the 1970s and 80s. There's therefore a wealth of knowledge going here about this particular loco which I feel can be trusted, and what's been said about the engineering samples has been very positive. In fact the samples have been photographed standing on the actual loco itself - very easy to compare the details! So it looks like an absolutely spot on model, from what we've been shown. And presumably the requirements of the NRM, a first class museum, will have ensured that.  So plenty of reasons to believe this will be an excellent model.

 

I don't agree that there has been any "hard sell " about this, the pre announcement "froth" thread was very entertaining and had the actual announcement been of something else I wasn't interested in buying then that would have been that but as it was, it was right on the money!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Without going off topic, the cost is a big consideration. As Ian states, there is a valid argument to state that for a model of this quality and detail, along with I'm sure the not inconsiderable R&D costs, it is to be expected that an appropriately high price is attached.

 

My only hope is that these prices don't become the norm for 'standard' models as it will likely impact on the popularity of the hobby in my view...

Three observations.

 

This isn't just a model purchase price, there's effectively a donation to the largest UK museum that caters to the railway interest.

 

The first such NRM exclusive model was the prototype Deltic. In 2007 that was £100 for the regular model, or £150 for the premium presentation with a display plinth. Almost simultaneously Bachmann had their new class 47 out as a regular release at £40. I would suggest that the price ratio of the new atlantic to a current regular release is if anything smaller than the ratio in 2007.  The entire first run of 3,000 sold out in nine days from announcement if memory serves. That model established beyond doubt the market for 'something better' in plastic bodied RTR, and we have seen a steady stream of premium RTR models since, which I feel have benefitted the hobby.

 

Finally, just as the prototype Deltic was so worth it (difficult shape, difficult paint colour, difficult fine detailing, all very challenging for the modeller attempting to get a good DIY result whether kit or scratchbuilt) so is this one in my opinion. Atlantics are generally difficult to make perform well in 4mm, and the very close spacing of the drivers and the compactness of the first four axles make this design particularly challenging for a kit or scratchbuilder. The track record persuades me that this will prove to be money well spent.

[The Black Hat]

Bachmann and the NRM have been clever in selecting the C1 as the next model. It gives Bachmann good PR to go with the NRM on it, and gives it an avenue to market the engine to the public as a rarer item and thus inflate costs as its not from the Bachmann main range. It will be interesting to see if future releases of the C1 will be done the same way and I expect that they will.

 

However, the main impetus behind this is that the model is of a popular prototype that many will want, regardless of the price increase. Many will forgo the purchase of a second model to just buy the one C1 instead. As others have said its cheaper than a kit built and is reaching the prices found in Europe for a model. This is where the price will stay towards the future, as preorders govern models produced and in the end will probably effect the end price. The C1 is going to be in demand owing to its nice looks, liver application but also that it is filling in a hole in the locomotive fleet for those modelling the GN area of the ECML and its surrounding area. So long as people want it for their fleet or want one as its also through the NRM thus driving into the collectors market, this and any future releases will prove to be expensive, popular, but still successful.

[The Great Bear]

My only gripe with Hornby's Star are the horizontal moulded on cab hand rails which make them look like little wings. Hornby fixed the wrong number of spokes problem.

 

The Star makes a good comparison with the C1, being similar in size and complexity. I am pretty certain that both went through the same amount of R&D and will have similar development costs.

 

The Hornby model boasts a 5 pole skew wound motor (which the C1 certainly will not have as Bachmann are always 3 pole motors), sprung buffers, lots of seperately fitted cab detail and detail between the forward frames. 

Indeed studying the photos posted so far of the C1, I can clearly see the tender brake shoes are not in line with the wheels and that the tender coal rails have the gaps filled. Of course this is an EP so....  and to be honest, I'm not too bothered if this is how actual model will turn out.

 

Therefore if the Bachmann C1 boasts a hole series of improvements over a Hornby Star, I will be glad to hear it. But I think the Star is overall a very good model practically on a par with the C1 from what I have seen so far.

 

Does any one know if the C1 will have sprung buffers? (I ask because City of Truro does not but then its shanks are rather narrow).

 

The Star though (I presume) was new body on the existing Castle chassis in the range for a few years while the C1 is brand new - that's what I meant by more R&D costs - though I haven't clue what split is in cost between loco body/chassis, tender body/chassis