N gauge Pendolino project

[Pete 75C]

To be fair, Steve's got a point. Butchers aren't in the habit of advertising bread for sale elsewhere in the hope that someone might buy a slice of ham to make a sandwich...

[jpendle]

Hi Ben

I've been offline for a while but after seeing the ICE video I have been convinced that tilt would look silly on my layout, lots of points and sharp curves at the station throat.

Of course if a micro servo with a speed sensor could be added to each coach .........

 

John P

[Stevelewis]

To be fair, Steve's got a point. Butchers aren't in the habit of advertising bread for sale elsewhere in the hope that someone might buy a slice of ham to make a sandwich...

Exactly  the  point   I  am  making,  having  been  in  marketing  for most  of  my  working life,  one  rule  learnt  is  that  you  don't  advertise something  that will not  bring  in   a  return  OR  reduce  your  chances  of  making  a  return on  something  you are  hoping  to sell.

 

Or the sale of a Class 350, class 90 or Class 66 to run alongside it?

 

It  should  be  considered  that  non essential spending  capital  is  tight  currently  and  is  likely  to  remain  so  for  the  forseeable  future!

[Revolution Ben]

Hi all,

 

Actually, it's in the interests of everyone - even the mainstream retailers - for this to happen.

 

I don't think any of the major British outline manufacturers is going to produce a Pendolino in the forseeable future, and speaking this weekend to both Farish and Dapol  has done nothing to change my view.  And yet everyone also agrees that British N "needs" a Pendolino as much as it needs an A4 or a Duchess.

 

So this is the only route to a Pendolino for anyone, and we are looking for backers who want between them 1,000 models of one of the most iconic and exciting trains on the railway today.

 

But once this model is done, tooling will exist and DJM may, after a pre-agreed interval, add the model to his range and therefore retailers could stock it and pick up the sales from those who weren't in at the ground, but who seeing the models in the flesh decide they must have one.   Of course, those later models would have to include retailer mark up and even discounted would probably be at least £100 more.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[alibuchan]

I had a few people ask about the project but not many, but unfortunately, it wasn't a huge surprise with the numbers at the Ricoh. Must have only had a dozen leaflets taken total!

 

I can put the posters on the layout again at Merseyrail in Liverpool on the 1st/2nd November.

 

Alistair

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

For those interested, this is the flyer we have been handing out:

 

 

The guide pledge remains £250 for the 9 car set, but after much discussion and deliberation, and taking on board the comments here, we are going to offer smaller pledge levels as shown.  The decision to split the unit into threes was taken on the basis that makes for simpler packaging and also because it's increasingly being used by Japanese manufacturers such as Kato, and if it's good enough for them....

 

Any questions, feel free to ask.  I will try to upload A4 variants asap.

 

As to interest; I found at TINGS that while people were shy about reaching forward and picking up the leaflets, they seemed happy to look - and interested - when I offered them one individually and asked them to take it and just have a look and see what they thought!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[njee20]

What were the thoughts about making it accessible to retailers? I know it was talked about early on - they buy at £250 as part of the Kickstarter, and are free to sell on at a higher retail - effectively allowing backers to buy at 'trade' price, but retailers to make a margin on those who don't get in at the Kickstarter point?

[Revolution Ben]

Hi there,

 

We would be delighted for retailers to join in - as far as we are concerned we don't mind who pledges as long as we reach the target.  Everyone who gets a complete set gets it for the same pledge of £250; what anyone does with it after they've received it is their business!

 

The difficulty is that the crowd-sourced project is modelled to offer "rewards" for "pledges" from many people - if a retailer were to come in and pledge for, say, 50 complete units then possibly Kickstarter may cry foul, though Mike is the expert on this side of things and I am not sure if there are restrictions on bulk pledging.

 

As requested in a previous posting here are two different posters; on my computer they size at A4 but as I have converted them to jpg they can be resized.  Permission is given for anyone who wishes to support the project to download, print and display, and all support gratefully received!

 

Basic poster showing idea:

 

 

Second poster indicating pledge levels:

 

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Stevelewis]

Probably  a  good  step  forward  to offer  'Part'  sets.

 

As  a  buyer  of  Kato N  gauge for  some  years,  I  have  noted  that  their system of  marketing   the 'long'  units  which in protoytpe  practice  can  be  quite long 19  - 20 cars etc!

is to  sell the  base  powered  unit, of  say  4  or 6 cars  and then  offer  'add on' units  for buyers   who  have  the SPACE ( & Money) to run full sets.

 

What is  very noticeable when browsing  retailers lists of available items  is  that,    Very  often   the  base powered  sets  have  sold  out and no longer available ( Kato batch build  with big gaps in type production due to  their vast range) but  there  are  always  several types  of  add on  sets   available  still.

 

Regarding  the length of the Pendolino at 9 cars,  on the N Gauge multi national layout  in my 8 x 6 Shed,  the  maximum  practical train length is  6  cars, I can  run longer  units ( and often do   for  fun)   but  points etc  are fouled!

 

Just as a matter of interest  the  2014 Kato cataloge is 266 pages, of  which  50%+ is devoted to  locos & rolling  stock  some  pages have up to 6 items shown!

 

Would it  not now  be feasible  to  run  a parallel Poll  to  gain  a  steer on numbers  that  would  support a smaller Pendolino set?

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Steve,

 

I am not sure what you mean by a smaller Pendolino set.  We have added smaller sets (with smaller pledge levels) to the project.  Is there something I'm missing?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[alibuchan]

I think that a trick has been missed with the make up of the smaller pledges.

 

If you do want a shorter powered set then you have to buy set 1 and 2 which is £215 as near as the full car set as to not make it viable in my eyes.

 

If the set 1 had a pantograph coach and the 2 driving coaches then you have got the necessary bits to have a short running set.

 

You could then always add an extra coach pack if you could afford and wanted too.

 

Might there also be an opportunity to just do the non powered driving car as a stand alone item so that people could swap the powered one out and have it dragable? It may not add to much in the way of sales put some of these things do go quickly like the W&S dummy 67's sold on the sets?

 

Not sure if that is workable?

 

Alistair

[Karhedron]

I like the look of the smaller sets although I do agree that the discount for a 6-car set over a 9-car looks a bit meagre. Still, I am sure you have done the maths.

 

One suggestion though would be to add a "Set 4". This would be an extra 2 cars to allow a full 11-car rake to be run.

[njee20]

Must admit I thought that, and I'm sure there's logic, but it would seem to me to make more sense to have a 4 car pack (with both driving trailers) plus a couple of add ons with 2 and 3 coaches or something. 

[scottystitch]

My tuppence worth.

 

It may be a little misleading, in light of the way the spec is going with regard to discarding a tilt function, to still use the word tilt in the first line and the phrase '....tilting class 390' on the poster? I know the spec listed on the poster doesn't mention tilt, I think some might assume they were getting tilt.

 

I would also agree re the smaller pledges. You need to buy both smaller sets to get a complete train, albeit a smaller rake so it seems pointless selling them as two separate packs?

 

Hopefully that is viewed as constructive criticism....

 

Scotty

[Padishar Creel]

Would the "short" sets of 4 cars effectively work against the project? A 4-car Pendolino would look ridiculous

I tend to the opinion of Karhedron, I would prefer to have the ability to purchase 9-car set(s) and have the coaches available to increase to 11

 

Regarding Kickstarter, will this only work with UK based accounts or do we simply enter our IBAN and SwiftBic?

 

es grüßt

pc

[njee20]

A 4-car Pendolino would look ridiculous

 

It wouldn't look prototypical, but it would open it up to people who couldn't afford/don't have space for a full 9 car rake, and is no different to how many train packs work. If it means more people buying into it then it's a great idea. Rule 1 and that.

 

I'd split 4/3/2 on the three packs though - meaning folk could have a 4 car one if they just want the bare minimum, or they could add two or three coaches to get a short, but plausible looking set. Plus those who buy the 9 car set can add the 2 to get an 11 car set.

 

Kickstarter allows pledges from any country too, card or PayPal payments I believe.

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

I think people need to be realistic about pricing.  This isn't going to happen if a few people just want a train-set 4-car Pendolino for £99.

 

The smaller sets have been produced to answer a demand, but clearly priced to encourage people to go for the full 9 cars.   Remember, if we don't reach the target then no one gets anything.

 

The thinking is this:

 

1)  We want most people to see the sense and value in a full nine car set.   This is clearly the way we need to encourage consumers to go to reach the goal and for anything to actually happen.

 

2)  Packaging costs are not insignificant, so any subsets will not require different or additional packaging.

 

3)  The subsets are designed to work together or individually as follows:

 

Sub Set 1:

 

 

This set offers the first class section of the train, and includes a powered driving car and a pantograph car.  It makes an attractive display model in its own right.

 

Sub Set 2:

 

 

This set incorporates a dummy driving car and the standard buffet/shop car with Pantograph.  Again, can be a display model or combined with set 1 offers a "shortened" Pendolino that at least incorporates one each of the different types of vehicle in the train, and has two pantograph vehiles for that distinctive "symmetrical" look you notice with complete sets.  Anyone who wants to replicate a "drag" could use this set in addition to a full set to have an 11-car train with dummy driving cars at each end.

 

Sub Set 3: 

 

 

This set incoporate the three remaining cars to make a complete set.  For those wishing to have an 11-car Pendolino this set could be acquired and the additional MF either sold on ebay or set aside.  It is priced very competitively we feel and might be the kind of pledge that someone could ask for as an Xmas or Birthday gift.

 

I hope this clarifies our thinking.  We thought about 4-car sets but in N we felt there can't be many people who want a Pendolino who don't have room for a 6-car set - and that would look so much better with the more correct composition of vehicles.

 

And with the Brighton Belle priced at £200 for a 5 car set, we think £215 for a six-car Pendolino is a very fair price.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Matt B]

Ben,

 

Its great that the project is moving forward - shame I missed the flyers at the weekend - many thanks to yourself mike and Dave for all the work you have put into this just the leaflet is exciting even though there is still some way to go until we see a model.

 

Having just completed the first loop on my layout can't wait to see a pendo passing through.

 

The smaller pledges is a good idea to hopefully drum up enough support to get the project over the line and when the units were first being delivered there were some interesting movements with part trains coupled between barrier vehicles - (something not modelled enough).

 

Matt

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Scotty

 

I take your point about comments re tilt but the leaflets were designed a while ago before we'd sounded everyone out on tilt... indeed final decision stil hasn't been made.

 

And the prices mentioned above are guide prices - I don't want to change them but as we move toward the actual launch of the Kickstarter page then we may need to refine things.  Once we launch the Kickstarter the page there will absolutely lock down the specification and pledge levels.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Revolution Mike]

We have already asked people about short sets - there has not been overwhelming interest (the majority of interest has said they are interested in the full 9 car rakes), but there has been some which is why we decided to make the split set available.

 

The split in the sets and the costs are entirely deliberate.  Ideally we want people to pledge for 9 car sets, but we realise that is not affordable or feasible for everyone. The costs are slightly higher as we want to incentise people to go for the full set (and because the split set will add an extra layer of complexity to our production runs).

 

Set 3 includes the extra 2 coaches needed to strengthen the sets from 9 to 11.  This will mean that people may be left with one spare coach, but I don't think it is practical for us to run another pack (just for the extra two coaches).

 

We have tried to give people as much flexibility as possible whilst still remaining within the limits of what is practically possible.

 

Given that the Brighton Belle is £200 for 5 cars I don't think £215 for 6 is at all unreasonable (many people have told us that the sets should be more expensive!).

 

Retailers - IIRC Kickstarter does not allow pledges for more than 10 of any one reward - with four set numbers possible that is potentially 40 sets. We'd be more than happy to reach an arrangement with retailers, but that is not an area that Ben and I have too many contacts with.  If a retailer wanted to make a bulk purchase then ideally we would agree that prior to the Kickstarter campaign starting so that we could reduce the funding target (we can't do that once the Kickstarter campaign is underway).

 

We had a lot of interest at TINGS, for which Ben and I are very grateful.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Matt B]

 

I hope this clarifies our thinking.  We thought about 4-car sets but in N we felt there can't be many people who want a Pendolino who don't have for a 6-car set - and that would look so much better with the more correct composition of vehicles.

 

And with the Brighton Belle priced at £200 for a 5 car set, we think £215 for a six-car Pendolino is a very fair price.

 

 

£250 is great value for a 9 car train and even £215 is good for a 6 car set - being in mind this is a complete new tooling and with limited future use - only one TOC uses the pendolino in the UK - where as the HST (for comparison £150 rrp for 4 car set and still waiting for the TGS) was used across the board so has a much greater future market.

 

Besides have a look at the second hand prices which are now getting up to the level of the newly issued models (even for pole ear models).

 

Yes its a lot of money but it works out at approximately 80 pints (average £3 per pint) or ten mid range bottles of neuf-du-pap.

 

Nothing is going to be just right to everyone but I feel we should be supporting Ben and Mike as much as possible as has been said there is no alternative around - a 3d printed one will not come close to this cost (at the moment) let alone the development work to get the model right.

 

Matt

[Revolution Ben]

Hi all,

 

The pricing, breaks down *very* roughly like this:

 

SubSet 3 offers 3 trailer coaches at £45 - ie £15 each.  That compares to single Farish Mk1s these days at £20 at least.

 

SubSet 2 offers a trailer plus panto trailer and driving dummy at £75 - the panto trailer works out at around £25 and the dummy driving car £35.  Dapol Mk3 DVTs (which are excellent models) have an RRP of £46 with boxshifter prices of around £36.

 

SubSet 3 offers a trailer, panto trailer and powered driver for £140 - meaning the loco is the equivalent of £100.  Again, this compares very favrouably to RRP and boxshifter prices for new locos. 

 

These prices are low, because Kickstarter/crowd funding cuts out the retailer.  You're getting, in effect, trade prices.  But this deal is only available to those who pledge - it's their reward for supporting the project.  Anyone waiting for the model to come out in the DJM range, if that even happens, will pay *at least* £100 more to allow for retailer margins.

 

The rough prices above are for the three packs separately (total £260) - those who pledge to the full unit at £250 are getting an even better deal.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[scottystitch]

Hi Scotty

 

I take your point about comments re tilt but the leaflets were designed a while ago before we'd sounded everyone out on tilt... indeed final decision stil hasn't been made.

 

And the prices mentioned above are guide prices - I don't want to change them but as we move toward the actual launch of the Kickstarter page then we may need to refine things.  Once we launch the Kickstarter the page there will absolutely lock down the specification and pledge levels.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Hi Ben

 

Noted re the tilt wording and I take your point.

 

My point with regards to set 1 and set 2 was, would it not be simpler to combine them? Realistically you need them both to run the train. In effect you'd have a full 9 car pledge at est. £250 and a 6 car pledge at est. £215. You could then offer a 2 car add-on for est. £45 for those that wanted to run an 11 car train.

 

I'm just struggling to see who would pledge for set 1 or set 2 in isolation. You'd buy both together wouldn't you? every time?

 

To be clear, I fully support this and will pledge for a 9 car set, I'm just trying to throw thoughts in to hopefully make the project work....

 

Cheers

 

Scotty

[Tricky-CRS]

I would like to support the project but have no interest in a complete set but will go with one of the lower pledges. The whole point of the lower pledge levels is right pull in more backers that would not be interested in the full set for financial or era or region reasons. It will probably fail if it has one pledge level all or nothing. I know what I am talking about as I have run one successful project and backed over 40 others. You need low pledges as well as high to get success, every little helps.

[Steven B]

Given that you've already got Virgin's support for the project is it worth asking them if they can offer some incentives for lower levels of funding? e.g. for £50 you get a visit to a Virgin Trains depot.

 

The only problem then would be what to do with the train-packs made up of the cash pledged by the smaller backers.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.