Hornby king

[The Stationmaster]

I think there was an assumption by some (myself included) that Steam would announce KGV as a Hornby King, it would certainly have been a good opportunity, that is assuming Hornby will be making a King for Steam, perhaps KGV will just be a Hornby model and not a Steam Model. Steam may be a little reticent given the mistakes and quality of the Star.

I think we possibly made an assumption too far or - far more likely an assumption too early.  Steam have been talking about a 'King' for around a year and it was mentioned to somebody at Steam on Sunday, albeit in slightly coded form.  It was originally mentioned to me in connection with an anniversary but I couldn't find one to connect so we could be a year or two early in anticipating and announcement from Steam?

[robmcg]

I think we possibly made an assumption too far or - far more likely an assumption too early.  Steam have been talking about a 'King' for around a year and it was mentioned to somebody at Steam on Sunday, albeit in slightly coded form.  It was originally mentioned to me in connection with an anniversary but I couldn't find one to connect so we could be a year or two early in anticipating and announcement from Steam?

 

Are not the lovely CAD drawings for a new King model all about a model expected in late 2015?  I cannot imagine any Steam model in the near future being anything but a special edition current model, but I had wondered if a few details could have been improved, front bogie/frame area in particular.

[Guest 838rapid]

2016 - 150 years of Swindon Works being founded?

 

Just a thought.

[grandadbob]

I heard on Sunday that "something with a bell" was going to be made so it's obviously Dominion of Canada ........isn't it? 

Edited September 16, 2014 by grandadbob

[JSpencer]

Last time a Steam model was annouced, it was within Hornby's normal yearly annoucements. So I would expect to see that when Hornby annouce next year's program around the end of the year (no idea which date yet).

 

(I also predict that Steam's King will be on the back of next year's catalogue!).

[robmcg]

Here is a 2007 version 'King' which I bought a couple of days ago... I think it was a 2006-7 Hornby model.

 

 

and with a few strokes of the virtual paintbrush...  spot the difference(s)..  I love the paintwork, quite like the blackened rods and wheels, lots of potential here, I have added shadows and hints of this and that around the font bogie and cylinders.

 

 

Soon no doubt to be at the head of a train of Colletts, Actually I think the prototype is a rather regal-looking locomotive with all the beauty of the very best in steam engineering, superb, and the 2003-on Hornby model while dated somewhat and really quite good value at commonly £40-£75 these days (although I have seen them for sale on-line for as much as £175 !) and not nearly as bad as some say.  5-pole motor, strong, reliable, silent-running. But I would say that, having just bought of them.  The likely new models from DJM and Hornby will of course be most welcome, if and when they materialise.

 

I will produce a series of edited photos in the next few days I hope. Have also bought 6028 and Castle class 'Wellington' so a very good GWR series to go with my various GWR-period coaches, the latter engine with choc-cream Hawksworths. I might repaint one of the Kings into 1947-8 condition, virtually that is, if that isn't too offensive, to go with the post-war coaches.

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

Edited September 17, 2014 by robmcg

[Barry O]

I understand that City of Truro and a King will be in the STEAM Museum by this time next year, that may be the lead for a model?

[Coach bogie]

I understand that City of Truro and a King will be in the STEAM Museum by this time next year, that may be the lead for a model?

 If they can find somewhere to put them!

 

Mike Wiltshire

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

 

 ...and with a few strokes of the virtual paintbrush...  spot the difference(s)..  I love the paintwork, quite like the blackened rods and wheels, lots of potential here, I have added shadows and hints of this and that around the front bogie and cylinders...

Just some more dashes of virtual paint required above the front frame stretcher of the bogie and eliminating the arch over the leading bogie wheel. The inside cylinders and frames should obscure all but a small segment of the leading edge of the bogie wheel on the far side.

 

This is what makes appearance of an OO model problematic, the front end needs to be really solid for that authentically lumpen look of the GWR four cylinder types. But this of course makes getting it around small rad curves impossible...

 

A current standard tooling - if it matched the Hornby Castle - would mainly add features to the loco running gear: the flare of the spokes from the protruding hub bosses of the wheels and the massive appearance of the slidebars are what gratified my eyes to provoke a purchase of this model. A little infilling into the bogie wheel arches and it still goes round my 30" minimum radii but with much less daylight showing through; this would not be impossible for a RTR manufacturer, supplying clip in infill pieces only suitable for an identified larger minimum radius.

[The Stationmaster]

Are not the lovely CAD drawings for a new King model all about a model expected in late 2015?  I cannot imagine any Steam model in the near future being anything but a special edition current model, but I had wondered if a few details could have been improved, front bogie/frame area in particular.

Steam have previously said 'definitely all new tooling' - so fortunately that won't mean using the current Hornby 'King' (which would probably lead to even more moans than those about a couple of details on the 'Star').

 

The big problem for any manufacturer of a 'King' is getting the right details on the right engines - being a GWR 'standard' class the detail changes over the years and, especially in the BR era the differences between individual engines for the best part of a decade, pose quite a task and some possible headaches in production.  Hornby did quite well with the 'Castle' in earlier issues and the Steam version was spot on.  But with the 'King the first thing to decide is which engine you want it to represent when and then deciding what you are not going to correct if you also want it to represent another engine at another time.  Hence Hornby's CADs that we have seen so far include errors for at least one of the engines they have announced although they might well correct them as they clearly had to announce far earlier than originally intended and some items on the CADs were obviously not finished.

[Hilux5972]

I would imagine that many of the differences between locos would be seperately fitted details to enable any loco to be produced. Since this is going head to head with Hattons king.

[robmcg]

Just some more dashes of virtual paint required above the front frame stretcher of the bogie and eliminating the arch over the leading bogie wheel. The inside cylinders and frames should obscure all but a small segment of the leading edge of the bogie wheel on the far side.

 

This is what makes appearance of an OO model problematic, the front end needs to be really solid for that authentically lumpen look of the GWR four cylinder types. But this of course makes getting it around small rad curves impossible...

 

A current standard tooling - if it matched the Hornby Castle - would mainly add features to the loco running gear: the flare of the spokes from the protruding hub bosses of the wheels and the massive appearance of the slidebars are what gratified my eyes to provoke a purchase of this model. A little infilling into the bogie wheel arches and it still goes round my 30" minimum radii but with much less daylight showing through; this would not be impossible for a RTR manufacturer, supplying clip in infill pieces only suitable for an identified larger minimum radius.

 

Odd things like the weight and appearance of slidebars, protruding hub bosses and so on certainly make a difference to the 'look' of a model, as do things like fineness of mouldings generally.  I think the latest Hornby GWR Cstle 'Wellington' is marvellous but still there is a sense, to my eye at least, of thinness in parts of the motion. Oddly the King doesn't look quite so bad in this respect.

 

I have been using photos of prototypes to try to match proportions and details as well as I can, but when I get too much into trouble I can always have clouds of steam covering my inadequacies! 

 

Being an LSWR person forever, I will have to learn a great deal about Swindon details before attaining even the most basic credibility around here.

 

Rob

Edited September 17, 2014 by robmcg

[Steffi_C]

Rob, this particular discussion has been about the planned new Hornby King.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to post your pictures in another thread where they might be more relevant?  I'd suggest the 'Hornby's Best Ever Models' thread, if you're that enthusiastic about Hornby's current offering.

[MG 7305]

Dear Rob

 

Where did you get the front screw coupling from?  I have been searching for years for scale screw couplings that are "hooked across" to the inside bottom buffer bolt like the one you show.

 

Best regards

 

Julian

[The Stationmaster]

Rob, this particular discussion has been about the planned new Hornby King.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to post your pictures in another thread where they might be more relevant?  I'd suggest the 'Hornby's Best Ever Models' thread, if you're that enthusiastic about Hornby's current offering.

 

.... and its all too obvious detail errors!  Putting a 'sort of BR condition' (with errors) 'King' into GWR livery does not make it a GWR 'King' and Hornby would do well to remember that with their new one as far as the 'modeller' market is concerned although the 'mass market' may be quite happy.

[Adams442T]

Dear Rob

 

Where did you get the front screw coupling from?  I have been searching for years for scale screw couplings that are "hooked across" to the inside bottom buffer bolt like the one you show.

 

Best regards

 

Julian

 

Dear Julian,

 

You may not know that most of Rob's images are computer manipulated and therefore do not show any actually available modelling details  (except some of his weathering photos of locomotives, which I believe are locos commercially done for him). 

 

Peter

[Mod4]

Please can we keep this thread to the topic of the newly announced Hornby King rather than discussion and images of past models modified or otherwise.

 

many thanks as my diodes, especially the left hand one just wont take it...

[Barry O]

 If they can find somewhere to put them!

 

Mike Wiltshire

They have a space... means losing a coach and a display area but it will fit! ( I would like to see it while they are doing it though!)

 

Whatever happens with the Hornby King it will be better than the original Lima one....

[robmcg]

Rob, this particular discussion has been about the planned new Hornby King.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to post your pictures in another thread where they might be more relevant?  I'd suggest the 'Hornby's Best Ever Models' thread, if you're that enthusiastic about Hornby's current offering.

 

Yes point taken pic removed.

 

Rob

[robmcg]

.... and its all too obvious detail errors!  Putting a 'sort of BR condition' (with errors) 'King' into GWR livery does not make it a GWR 'King' and Hornby would do well to remember that with their new one as far as the 'modeller' market is concerned although the 'mass market' may be quite happy.

Would you please point out the 'all too obvious' GWR King errors? Apart from running board detail and steam pipe to cylinders, fixed in my most recent picture in msg.9 in Rob's Images in Wheeltappers which cannot be shown here because of the moderator's complaint.

[aussiebrfan]

Would you please point out the 'all too obvious' GWR King errors? Apart from running board detail and steam pipe to cylinders, fixed in my most recent picture in msg.9 in Rob's Images in Wheeltappers which cannot be shown here because of the moderator's complaint.

 

This isnt relevant to the thread either. Try a PM instead!

[robmcg]

How can GWR/BR King class details as alluded to by Stationmaster NOT be relevant to the new Hornby model please? I intend no disrespect.

 

Rob

[Coach bogie]

Would you please point out the 'all too obvious' GWR King errors? Apart from running board detail and steam pipe to cylinders, fixed in my most recent picture in msg.9 in Rob's Images in Wheeltappers which cannot be shown here because of the moderator's complaint.

Cab roof shutters are a BR addition apart from 6014 in semi streamlined form. Buffers are later parallel not tapered, later topfeed pipe along top of fireiron tunnel not hidden as GWR, fixture between boiler and smokebox on firemans side (still not sure what it is). BR style inside cylinder cover with footstep.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Stationmaster]

Cab roof shutters are a BR addition apart from 6014 in semi streamlined form. Buffers are later parallel not tapered, later topfeed pipe along top of fireiron tunnel not hidden as GWR, fixture between boiler and smokebox on firemans side (still not sure what it is). BR style inside cylinder cover with footstep.

 

Mike Wiltshire

And various other things of course.

 

However as I have already pointed out elsewhere first of all the new Hornby 'King' has clearly not completed its CAD stage yet.  And because of that , and what little they have said about the models they intend to produce we do not really know exactly what they are trying to portray in what condition when.  The 'Kings' underwent numerous detail changes over the years starting with some during construction and continuing to within a few years of withdrawal.  

 

Apart from that two manufacturers are now engaged in developing models of 'Kings' and are no doubt researching the exact detail relevant to what they intend their particular models will portray.   The guys on the Hattons stand at RMweb Live confirmed that is exactly what they are doing so presumably the Hornby folk have done the same because, after all, the published sources are in the public domain.  Meanwhile, and possibly available to the designers if they know about them, some folk might well hold their own collections - for example mine of 50 RP postcards and photographs covers, albeit not for every detail change, the class from new to the end.  Equally I know that all the published sources I have do not cover in illustrated form one of the detail changes that appeared in BR times although other sources might well cover it.

 

Equally the manufacturers will turn what their research reveals into something which is a practical proposition for production and that can inevitably mean certain details might be omitted or glossed over so they also know, or will find out, how to tackle things like that.  Until such time as they decide - if they ever do (as there will obviously be commercial considerations) things such as CADs and EPs we don't know exactly what they will reproduce or gloss over or have missed.  And at those stages, should they happen some of us might be able to make informed comment about what they are developing and the accuracy or otherwise of its portrayal of what they say is their prototype - qualified by date and running number.

 

A BR late livery 'King' can mean a variety of different things in detail appearance and in some notable areas such as the chimney (definitely at least two types, possibly but I think unlikely, a third), and different buffers to quote just the two most noticeable things.  Equally if they intend to produce one in 'original condition' which of the two basic possibilities will it be?  As I've said before the 'Kings' were a fairly typical example of Swindon standardisation - they changed a lot.  But alas the roller bearings which were ordered for them in the 1950s were sent back to the manufacturer after a short period in Swindon where it was embarassingly found they didn't, and couldn't be fitted.

 

Second guessing what Hornby will do, even with engine names announced, isn't exactly easy and could be a total waste of time, to be honest as we know from what they have shown that there is already an error on their CADs (assuming that particular item is complete, of course it might not be - we don't know).

[robmcg]

Were there not two different double chimneys, early and late BR? The single chimney in the many pictures I have looked at while doing my virtual images appears to be the same throughout. (willing to be corrected)

 

I use photos/dates as a guide generally but don't always care in every pic., it depends on the context. Superheater size, chimney style, buffer style, steam pipe shape, cab ventilators, top front lamp bracket, lubricators, what else? Something about front bogie shape?

 

Rob