Hornby king

[Hilux5972]

I have now cancelled my DJM kings and preordered the Hornby ones.

[robmcg]

I have now cancelled my DJM kings and preordered the Hornby ones.

 

Where can I order a new Hornby King (if it is a new model?)

 

Sorry to be so dumb.

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

 

edit;  aha! 

 

http://www.Hornby.com/news/Hornby-confirms-the-king/

 

the CAD drawings still show a bit of air around the front of the bogie,  but early days...

Edited September 9, 2014 by robmcg

[JSpencer]

Where can I order a new Hornby King (if it is a new model?)

 

Sorry to be so dumb.

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

 

edit;  aha! 

 

http://www.Hornby.com/news/Hornby-confirms-the-king/

 

the CAD drawings still show a bit of air around the front of the bogie,  but early days...

 

Ironically, Kernow (DJ's other customer) had them quickly posted on their website yesterday. They quote the Hornby RRP at the moment, it remains to be seen if they will reduce this once they have details from Hronby itself.

[JSpencer]

I think Chris Leigh makes fair comment and experienced comment. The 10000 diesel saw one with a more expensive inferior product while the other later arrival seems to have trouble shifting theirs and may well be underpriced (judging by the price increases this year).

 

Given that Bachmann dropped their J15 pretty sharpish, that would hint that they do not want another 4MT duplicate type issue.

 

People are now talking about cheap Kings on ebay at the moment, but is this because they have become that since the annoucement OR were they cheap on ebay before anyone announced a new one?

If it is the latter then that hints the market is not big enough to support 2 kings.

 

On the other hand I remember seeing Hornby Eurostar coaches fetching a fortune before the further production batch was announced and these coaches are not exactly 21st century super detailed items!

[Downendian]

Duplication is not a bad thing at all for us the customers - both sides have to up their game without knowing what the opposition is up to. This has (probably) been a contributory factor to why Hornby appear to have dropped "design clever" with the King. Although, they may alternately have felt it's been a bit of a commercial own goal.

 

What is unusual here though is "simultaneous" duplication - although Hornby appear already ahead in the race. Duplication has traditionally led to an incremental advance in quality but with years between the different releases (compare Heljan/Bachmann 47s, Heljan/Dapol Westerns, Bachmann/Hornby B1s). I hung fire with the Dapol 10000 LMS twins, and was glad I did I bought the superior Bachmann model, and to be fair to Bachmann they are yet to release the popular LMS black livery variants. This was sort of the same time frames on announcements.

 

I hope we see both models - as someone has mentioned Olivia's decided to drop their Heljan blue Pullman and Dapol their version of DP2 as they were deemed too much of a commercial risk, when Simultaneous announcements were made. I have two DJM kings preordered, but may change my mind - which is a choice I don't mind having, let's see what the Hornby EPs look like. I will then make a judgement based on what my learned colleagues say here is the better model.

 

Neil

Edited September 9, 2014 by Downendian

[jjb1970]

This may be a topic for another thread but something I am finding uite interesting is what is the future direction of Hornby with regards detail etc? In a recent blog SK seemed to say that their step back from some of the more esoteric and high end features was for the long term. After the debacle of design clever it does appear that Hornby were gaining a much better appreciation of where costs could be cut and where they needed to retain details. This King is returning to the features and mechanism of their previous high end models. Is this because it is being funded (even partially?) by Steam or is it a reversal or their reversal on such features? I'm sure some will say it is just a response to the DJ/Hattons model but that is not a realistic position given the relative timings of each announcement.

 

The P2 has demonstrated that it is possible to make a model down to a budget and retain enough positives to retain the interest of modellers. The Crosti 9F is in the Railroad range but looking at the sample models it looks more than good enough to cut the mustard as a serious model. So Hornby seem to be developing a potentially very attractive range of models which are maybe taking Railroad out of the toy category into the budget model category and aimed at the enthusiast market (and yes, I know that to most these are all toys).

 

Their Drummond 700 and D16/3 sample pictures appear to show mainstream models which whilst maybe not as good as Hornby could make them are nothing like the design clever attempts of the large tanks. In the real world I really believe that a three pole motor is as good as a five pole one to all intents and purposes and some of the esoteric features are nice to have but not noticeable on a layout. These really seemed to me to be finding quite a sweet spot in terms of a featuresl/price compromise.

 

Now we have the King which is a return to full fat. Perhaps SK will elaborate on his blog, but is it possible we are seeing the emergence of a three tier range?

Railroad - entry level no frills good models

Main range - good models with good detail but down spec mechanism and losing some finer features

Halo models - top end models to retain their image as a premium producer

No idea, but it'll be interesting to see how this pans out in the months ahead.

[Dunsignalling]

 

People are now talking about cheap Kings on ebay at the moment, but is this because they have become that since the annoucement OR were they cheap on ebay before anyone announced a new one?

If it is the latter then that hints the market is not big enough to support 2 kings.

 

Probably the latter, but I don't think it really matters which, or even whether the market will or will not support two new models.

 

One way or another (if not both), there is going to be a new, better model of the King produced and owners of the older ones (and, more importantly, traders) are simply attempting to unload them before too many others get the same idea, pushing prices even lower.

 

Those who prefer less detailed, more robust models bought second-hand tend to be even more price conscious than the rest of us, especially if something appears to be plentiful. Many in that category are working on very limited budgets and buying several models of one prototype is seldom on their agenda.  

 

There is also a risk of saturating the used market. If you go to any regular swapmeet, you will notice certain models that hang around for months (if not years) because buyers who might be interested already have all they want. One new King will make that likely to happen to the old one; two will make it certain. 

 

John

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Blank plates where light shines through in the area of inside cylinders and motion?   Makes sense to me. Short of fully-modelled cylinders, which would foul the bogie for type 2/3 curves.

 Spot on. This is a given of 'general market' OO: it has to run on UK set track or the maker immediately sacrifices something like 80% of potential sales.

 

It is easy enough to fix if you are a modeller, and your track curvature and any gradient transitions are less severe then set track: most simply adding a central 'fin' to the footplate underside to act as a light blocker does the job; all the way up to adoption of true scale 'built externally exactly as per prototype' modelling.

Amid all the euphoria about another choice of models of the same subject I can't help but wonder which manufacturer made a worthwhile profit out of the Standard Class 4 4-6-0 or more recently 10000?...

Yes, but distinguish retailer commission driven product, from the maker's own product choices. Hattons are commissioning from DJM, so that company's financial exposure is limited, and DJ gets the chance using a customer's funding to strut his stuff.

 

Nonetheless, I can see two alternative full-on 'plums' from BR's big named passenger express locos without a current state of the art model available or announced, and at least four other big machines with never an OO model or only a poor one; all of which I have to believe would do better as enjoying a clear field. And since the Hattons commisssion is pure vapourware at present...

[The Stationmaster]

It's not just a rapidly shrinking pool of profitable prototypes to consider.

With all these announcements at the moment, there's a rapidly shrinking pool of available production capacity within China. It won't miraculously expand overnight. The knock-on effect will be more delays and the possibility of cancelled projects as one manufacturer or another manages to grab the factory's attention to leap-frog a.n.other model company.............

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

Interestingly some people seem to be able to find capacity and some (probably not many?) Chinese factories are pushing to find work - I suspect the larger problem in exploiting that sort of latent capacity is finding the money to do so or taking the risk which is involved in laying out that money.  Equally I wouldn't be surprised (not that I know one way or t'other) that the capacity might exist at certain stages of process and not others?

 

Overall I think a more serious and likely constraint is/is going to be the size of the market.  The economic situation has already depressed the market for 'vanity' purchases because people either don't have as much money or don't have it at all.  This might gradually change but there are increasingly probably as many adverse economic indicators emerging as there are positive ones so things might not improve as quickly as some people expect.   Equally there is the whole matter of brand loyalty and specialised markets - for example the Steam market for what they are no doubt going to announce this coming weekend is in many respects something rather different from a traditional idea of the model railway market and, in the case of the 'King' far more outlets stock Hornby than stock Hattons own label items.  Time will tell - whatever we think might happen.

 

Even more interesting as point of debate is jjb's comments about the potential impact of the 'King' on the Hornby range and the way it fits into what might, or might not, be an emerging marketing change for the company.  I think in one respect it is 'unusual' because of involvement of Steam and what they have sought after the problems with the 'Star' - clearly Hornby have that to get off their shoulders and they have to show more than willing if they wish to get into the more expensive end of the commissioned models market - an area they once espoused and dismissed.  So I don't think their 'King' as such is necessarily indicative of a change but at the same time  it will be a test of the market for such change in the way that jjb postulates - the only questions in my mind are whether or not they can pull it off in quality etc terms and whether or not it will financially justify the investment and trying to maintain/re-establish a place in that market area; the disruptive element of the Hattons' 'King' might however make it difficult for Hornby to get clear indications.

 

Hornby has something like a 12 month start (certainly in thinking about it, perhaps not necessarily in working on it) and it will also be interesting to see if that can maintain that lead, once they've finished the detail elements on their CADs and put in what is thus far absent.

[Steffi_C]

People are now talking about cheap Kings on ebay at the moment, but is this because they have become that since the annoucement OR were they cheap on ebay before anyone announced a new one?

 

No, they've been going for very little for quite a while, at least the last couple of years.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Steffi_C

[Horsetan]

I agree. There cannot be collusion.... over who was going to do what....

 

.....If I was in the position of facing a duplicate of something I was investing that money in, I wouldn't hesitate to drop it,....

 

Re-reading this several times, I thought there was a slight contradiction in terms in Chris's view. On the one hand, there can't be a collusion or cartel, yet if someone muscles in on your planned model territory, you are prepared to lose any investment that you've already made. Taken to its logical conclusion, that would suggest nothing would be produced, and that particular nothing would be at some cost to yourself.

[toboldlygo]

 

People are now talking about cheap Kings on ebay at the moment, but is this because they have become that since the annoucement OR were they cheap on ebay before anyone announced a new one?

 

 

No, they've been going for very little for quite a while, at least the last couple of years.

 

 

They are very cheap to get hold of on ebay and have been for quite a while.

[Cor-onGRT4]

You get some few things more on the DJM for only 10 pounds more,

etched brass number/name plates, oil lamps, headcode numbers , opening smokebox door with inner detail

and not the least open modelled frame wich is quit common with european manufacturers,

about seperated handrails look at the CAD on the cab end no vertical handrail but an little yellow line on

the underside of the cab end,hopely not molded like the Star, I know it is a CAD but even in a CAD you should clearly ad this details.

I ordered three DJM kings and will not cancel, but if Hornby's one bin an supermodel I will order their

King James too.  

[newbryford]

Where can I order a new Hornby King

 

...

Hattons?

Cheers

Mick

[Shedmaster83G]

When Lima and Hornby first issued their Kings back in the dim and distant past the Lima locomotive was judged to be superior and Hornby hastily revamped their model.  Both models featured tender drive.  Hornby subsequently produced a 'Super Detail' King with loco drive but the tender, also seen behind their Castle, visibly failed to match the much improved model and, to my mind, looked too small.  If the new tender introduced for the current Castle (and Star) had been married to the King I believe the appearance of the model would have been enhanced.  If Hornby decided to put a King in their Railroad Range then I suggest that would be the way to go.

 

I was lucky enough to see King George V at Swindon departing on the final leg of her (his?) trial journey in 1971 that paved the way for steam operation to return on British Railways.  It was an unexpected piece of luck as the Merrymaker on which I was travelling drew up alongside the King's train that departed whilst we waited for the road.   What was most impressive was the near silent start by the King as it set-off.   I still have my late Father's book, The King of Railway Locomotives, published by the G.W.R. in 1928 and the boxed jigsaw also issued by the Company that gave me great pleasure during my childhood.

 

Clearly Hornby are well on the way with their project but the progress made by DJ Models on Kernow's O2 indicates they can also move forward quickly.  It will be interesting to watch the outcome but I would struggle to justify by one from either manufacturer as they didn't work west of Saltash until the preservation era.

[Steffi_C]

Where can I order a new Hornby King (if it is a new model?)

 

You should try emailing Locomotion.  Remember, you'd be supporting a good cause.

[jwd]

How about a Great Bear, Hornby could do that and leave DJM to do the King.

 

Obviously not needed by BR era modellers but would be a super engine if made RTR.

[Ian Hargrave]

Where can I order a new Hornby King (if it is a new model?)

 

Sorry to be so dumb.

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

 

edit; aha!

 

http://www.Hornby.com/news/Hornby-confirms-the-king/

Locomotion is ,of course an excellent cause.However,by common consent,an announcement by Steam Museum,Swindon of a special edition King is expected within the next couple of days and will probably be available for immediate advanced order.Thus,you may not have to wait long,Rob.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Ian Hargrave

[Ozexpatriate]

Ironically, Kernow (DJ's other customer) had them quickly posted on their website yesterday.

I wouldn't call that ironic. I would call it a demonstration of the efficiency of the Kernow Model Railway Centre.

[The Stationmaster]

Re-reading this several times, I thought there was a slight contradiction in terms in Chris's view. On the one hand, there can't be a collusion or cartel, yet if someone muscles in on your planned model territory, you are prepared to lose any investment that you've already made. Taken to its logical conclusion, that would suggest nothing would be produced, and that particular nothing would be at some cost to yourself.

At the same time it seems that various people in the business have an idea what others might be working on.  I have heard of two locos, one steam and one diesel that are allegedly being developed by particular companies although one of those has also been announced by someone else.  If A happened to know that Z was working on a whatever might it also be the case that L also knew?

 

In this particular case what is reasonably public knowledge - at least among those of us who have purchased from them - is that Steam were looking to go next to the 'King' and indeed were telling us when we mentioned the 'Star' that the 'King' would be new tooling.  The name of a manufacturer was not mentioned and it is of course all too easy to add 2 & 2 and come up with 5 but an educated guess would likely point at Hornby.  So there we are - not only might others in the industry have known about it but also some of us ordinary punters knew too (and two of us have said exactly that in this thread).

 

Lots of things can be kept under wraps but sometimes, be it intentionally or accidentally, news filters out although in the case of the 'King' I think we were told as much for any other reason as to deal with our disappointment over the 'Star'; very much a case of 'it'll be much better with the next one, and this is what it will be'.

[Ozexpatriate]

What is unusual here though is "simultaneous" duplication

Neil,

 

I don't think "simultaneous" duplication is very unusual at all and I think it is getting more common - particularly as we see more and more commissioned items and fewer prototypes unrepresented by plastic RTR models.

 

Very recently:

60xx King: Hattons/DJModels and STEAM*/Hornby

1361: Kernow/DJModels and Heljan

 

* Or so I assume.

 

Slightly less recently:

Blue Pullman: Olivia's Trains and Bachmann (Olivia's Trains backed out)

LMS Twins: Hattons/Dapol and Rails of Sheffield/Bachmann (both went to market)

 

From some time back:

49xx Hall: Bachmann and Hornby. Hornby changed their plans at the time of the simultaneous announcement and built the Grange, but they plan to introduce their Hall soon(ish) according to the elastic Hornby calendar.

EDIT: (Had that backwards).

68xx Grange: Bachmann and Hornby. (Bachmann changed their plans to make a Grange and made the Hall instead.)

Standard Class 4MT 4-6-0: Bachmann and Hornby (both went to market)

BR 9F: Bachmann and Hornby Railroad

 

Of course there is the grand old duplicate where no one truly cares: the A4.

 

And we don't know just how many times it has happened 'behind the scenes' where someone started a project but got wind of a competitor doing the same thing, either through the grapevine or by public announcement and changed their plans - rather much the way Mike suggests above.

 

If we perceive duplication as a problem (and I agree with Chris that it can drastically erode profit margins for companies who, despite all the grumbling by price sensitive punters, really are very marginal businesses - as the chequered history of model railway companies will attest), there is no easy solution. Investors will make decisions as they see fit.

 

Duplication is routine in most competitive businesses (think of a category like mobile phones) - it's all a matter of time-to-market, quality and execution. It helps 'share the wealth' in the little world of model railways if there is no duplication and "doing what others aren't" is an effective niche marketing strategy but it's hard to consistently implement.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Ozexpatriate

[Ozexpatriate]

Lots of things can be kept under wraps but sometimes, be it intentionally or accidentally, news filters out although in the case of the 'King' I think we were told as much for any other reason as to deal with our disappointment over the 'Star'; very much a case of 'it'll be much better with the next one, and this is what it will be'.

By the looks of things so far "it will indeed be much better with the next one" which is very encouraging.

[lyndonsdad1]

And the next one should be an original Merchant Navy, by Bachmann, Hornby and uncle Tom Cobley?????

[gwrrob]

 

 

I don't think "simultaneous" duplication is very unusual at all and I think it is getting more common - particularly as we see more and more commissioned items and fewer prototypes unrepresented by plastic RTR models.

 

Duplication is routine in most competitive businesses (think of a category like mobile phones) - it's all a matter of time-to-market, quality and execution. It helps 'share the wealth' in the little world of model railways if there is no duplication and "doing what others aren't" is an effective niche marketing strategy but it's hard to consistently implement.

 

Of course there's another King available in this equation that I've had my hands on for a full review.6014 'King Henry VII' in Great Western livery.

 

I don't quite know where to start.Just look at those slidebars.....

 

[Ozexpatriate]

Of course there's another King available in this equation that I've had my hands on for a full review.6014 'King Henry VII' in Great Western livery.

That's very impressively weathered (not). What is your technique there - about 30 years of dust from sitting on a shelf?

 

(I've got a couple of models that use that technique.)

Edited September 9, 2014 by Ozexpatriate