Adams442T Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Sorry gwrrob, Didn't know whether to use a 'Funny' icon or a 'Heart' one, so in the end I settled for the little used 'Ironic' icon........................................... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted September 9, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 9, 2014 I wonder how this banner advert under the Hornby King thread got there? Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 , but they plan to introduce their Hall soon(ish) according to the elastic Hornby calendar. Careful ! There are a few humourless red box afficianado's policing this thread...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Tot up the number of promised new locos at a nominal investment (quoted by Rapido) of $100,000 per loco. We must be looking at a cool $2million plus. If I was in the position of facing a duplicate of something I was investing that money in, I wouldn't hesitate to drop it, however much better I thought my model might be. It is not just a question of whether you believe your model will be better, there is also the issue of how much work has been done at the point where the duplication is discovered/announced. Tooling accounts for the greater part of the R&D costs but scanning, measuring and CADing cost money too. There must come a point where a manufacturer is too deeply committed to back out without wasting all the money spent to date. Hornby clearly have done some work already. How much Hattons and DJM have done we do not know at this stage. I can see both products coming to market if one manufacturers feels they can get a product to market better/faster/cheaper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted September 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2014 Neil, I don't think "simultaneous" duplication is very unusual at all and I think it is getting more common - particularly as we see more and more commissioned items and fewer prototypes unrepresented by plastic RTR models. From some time back: 49xx Hall: Bachmann and Hornby. Hornby changed their plans at the time of the simultaneous announcement and built the Grange, but they plan to introduce their Hall soon(ish) according to the elastic Hornby calendar. Standard Class 4MT 4-6-0: Bachmann and Hornby (both went to market) BR 9F: Bachmann and Hornby Railroad Of course there is the grand old duplicate where no one truly cares: the A4. . I still maintain its unusual. One of the examples you mention above wasn't simultaneous either Bachmann 9f released 2006, Hornby railroad 9f 2008. The LMS twins hit the marketplace a good year or so between them as well, although I think the announcements were pretty close. I think we are arguing semantics but- Ok let's refine my argument a bit. Simultaneous release to market (I.e. Within the same trading year) is rare, announcements of the same model are more frequent but still uncommon, but as we have discussed many fall by the wayside (Hall, Blue Pullman, DP2). This is for sound economic reasoning. The main point of relevance to us the consumer and this thread is will one manufacturer drop the King over the next few months? I suspect (and hope) not, but these situations when they happen will affect profit margins for the duplicate models. As this is a thread on the Hornby model, I'm convinced this one will happen, and that's no sleight on Hattons/DJM, Hornby are just the bigger outfit and appear to be more advanced and more economic commitment thus far. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40F Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 Careful ! There are a few humourless red box afficianado's policing this thread...... HA HA HA HA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40F Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 I wish there was a not very funny button. Do we have to keep knocking Hornby in a sly underhand manner ? We do not know yet which one will be out first but for my money red is the colour Get a sense of Humour Man ! Have got one ---------- It comes in a red box and is running late Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted September 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 10, 2014 49xx Hall: Bachmann and Hornby. Hornby changed their plans at the time of the simultaneous announcement and built the Grange, but they plan to introduce their Hall soon(ish) according to the elastic Hornby calendar. If my memory serves, it was the other way round. Bachmann changed from the Grange to the Hall when Hornby announced its Grange. At that time, Hornby was much better at meeting its production "quarters" as notified in the catalogue and so it was pretty obvious that the Hornby one would arrive first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted September 10, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 10, 2014 I wonder how this banner advert under the Hornby King thread got there? 2fea208773a2b8afaea4cf6a61b58be6.jpg Cheers, Mick Actually its potentially misleading. There's no reference to DJModels, so those not in the know might think it's Hatton's price for the Hornby model, especially here in the Hornby thread, and suggested Hatton's are charging more than Hornby's own price as announced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted September 10, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2014 Of course there's another King available in this equation that I've had my hands on for a full review.6014 'King Henry VII' in Great Western livery. I don't quite know where to start.Just look at those slidebars..... DSCN4671.jpg When that was the level of the competition, even the old Hornby tender-drive one looked plenty good enough! John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adams442T Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 The Hornby King I am sure will now be a better model than the Hornby Star. Indeed they would be on to a hiding if it wasn't, but better than the DJM/Hatton one? I have my reservations. Presuming that their spec is at least as high as Hatton's then it should be another fine model, so it will then fall out to, "you pays your money and you takes your choice". I have personally decided on the DJM Kings, solely because of the choice of locos available. To those who say that Dave hasn't produced anything yet, well consider the Dapol Western and Well Tank, both fine models, IMHO, which he had a big part of. Plus his way of communicating and openness is a big plus for me. Competition is good, goes the mantra, and it will be interesting to see who blinks first...................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 The Hornby King I am sure will now be a better model than the Hornby Star. Indeed they would be on to a hiding if it wasn't, but better than the DJM/Hatton one? I have my reservations. Presuming that their spec is at least as high as Hatton's then it should be another fine model, so it will then fall out to, "you pays your money and you takes your choice". I have personally decided on the DJM Kings, solely because of the choice of locos available. To those who say that Dave hasn't produced anything yet, well consider the Dapol Western and Well Tank, both fine models, IMHO, which he had a big part of. Plus his way of communicating and openness is a big plus for me. Competition is good, goes the mantra, and it will be interesting to see who blinks first...................... Don't forget paint finish, this can by just as complex as the model design itself. In fact I have an impression that the finishing processes alone are 1/3 to 1/2 of the final price for a Hornby loco if we compare P2 RR with a P2 main range. The paint scheme and finish on those Dapol 00 gauge models are no where near as complex as a King. That said some of their N-gauge ones might have been. Likewise Dapol never did a tender loco in 00 gauge (not to modern standards), although there were many N-gauge ones. This will be interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) If my memory serves, it was the other way round. Bachmann changed from the Grange to the Hall when Hornby announced its Grange. At that time, Hornby was much better at meeting its production "quarters" as notified in the catalogue and so it was pretty obvious that the Hornby one would arrive first. Andrew, you may well be right there and I have mis-remembered it. I'm honestly not sure and might have it wrong. EDIT: In fact you are 100% correct sir - it was Bachmann who changed their plans to do the Grange. Thank you for the correction. Edited September 10, 2014 by Ozexpatriate Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted September 10, 2014 Share Posted September 10, 2014 One of the examples you mention above wasn't simultaneous either Bachmann 9f released 2006, Hornby railroad 9f 2008. The LMS twins hit the marketplace a good year or so between them as well, although I think the announcements were pretty close. I think we are arguing semantics but- Ok let's refine my argument a bit. Simultaneous release to market (I.e. Within the same trading year) is rare, announcements of the same model are more frequent but still uncommon, but as we have discussed many fall by the wayside (Hall, Blue Pullman, DP2). This is for sound economic reasoning. Yes, there's some semantic distinctions. I only included the 9F because there was a ton of griping over the duplication when the Hornby Railroad 9F was announced, (which subsided after the release) but you are correct in that the announcements weren't simultaneous, though I think products in the marketplace were. I had interpreted 'simultaneous duplication' to mean products that were announced by multiple competitors before either had made it to market. I think there's a 'fair' number of them, somewhere between (the deliberately vague) 'unusual' and 'commonplace' and (I suspect) a lot more that might have happened but get cancelled for the profitability reasons we all agree on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted September 11, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2014 Actually my dates were according to Ramsey's, Bachmann 9F first released 2006, Hornby railroad 9F to market 2008. Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted September 11, 2014 Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) I cannot see why there was griping over a Railroad 9F. It was the former main range loco given a loco drive chassis and no were near the standards nor price of the Bachmann offering.It would be a bit like griping over a TTS railroad class 40 vs Bachmanns sound fitted one. Worlds apart... Edited September 12, 2014 by JSpencer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) The Hornby King I am sure will now be a better model than the Hornby Star. Indeed they would be on to a hiding if it wasn't, but better than the DJM/Hatton one? I have my reservations. Presuming that their spec is at least as high as Hatton's then it should be another fine model, so it will then fall out to, "you pays your money and you takes your choice". I have personally decided on the DJM Kings, solely because of the choice of locos available. To those who say that Dave hasn't produced anything yet, well consider the Dapol Western and Well Tank, both fine models, IMHO, which he had a big part of. Plus his way of communicating and openness is a big plus for me. Competition is good, goes the mantra, and it will be interesting to see who blinks first...................... Can someone tell me if the GWR brown-cream Hawksworths are available anywhere as the idea of a single chimney post war GWR King with at lest a couple of them behind the tender is very appealing. I remember when they came out I thought, "that's a narrow window of time, 1947-8, for such nice models". It gets more complex with early BR blue and crimson-cream carriages, but back-to-green BR early crest, the thought of a representative express train is even more complex. And double chimneys? Dear oh dear.... far too many choices! Is there to be an annoucement by Hornby this weekend re a commissioned King? edit; ah, dumb me, poor memory! http://www.gaugemaster.com/news/Hornby-Announce-King-Class-Locomotives Edited September 12, 2014 by robmcg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted September 12, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 12, 2014 I cannot see why there was griping over a Railroad 9F. It was the former main range loco given a loco drive chassis and no were near the standards nor price of the Bachmann offering. It would be a bit like griping over a TTS railroad class 40 vs Bachmanns sound fitted one. Worlds apart... I suspect that Hornby had a much better 9F in mind at the time but the superb Bachmann one hit the shops so much earlier to so much acclaim that there might have been few takers for it by the time they got it finished. The Railroad one, for me, always had "Plan B" written all over it. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 (edited) here is what would be nice with front-end detail... from parallel thread msg.9 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67519-Hornby-gwr-king-what-would-it-take/ Edited September 13, 2014 by robmcg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 13, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 13, 2014 here is what would be nice with front-end detail... from parallel thread msg.9 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67519-Hornby-gwr-king-what-would-it-take/ $57_king_7.jpg Al has solved the biggest problem with the front end with that mod and it makes a huge difference. My hope would be that if someone is tooling if from 'a standing start' they would not only exclude the light which isn't needed but would add that which is. Virtually an impossible task with the existing 'King' I would think but an interesting possibility if you have a clean sheet for your design. And hopefully (not intending any criticism of Al in any way) one also hopes that anyone starting from scratch would also get the right bogie details for the period their model allegedly portrays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 In looking at my various pictures of GW Castles and Kings and their front-end appearance, I notice that the King, even though it is inferior in most detail to the latest Castle, has one advantage; the closed front framing to the front bogie hides the awful 00 gauge wheels and the coarse narrow gauge dimensions which afflicts many 00 steam models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 15, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 15, 2014 In looking at my various pictures of GW Castles and Kings and their front-end appearance, I notice that the King, even though it is inferior in most detail to the latest Castle, has one advantage; the closed front framing to the front bogie hides the awful 00 gauge wheels and the coarse narrow gauge dimensions which afflicts many 00 steam models. Bogie wheels aren't really a problem as they can readily be changed for some Gibson ones and that changes appearance considerably. The big problem with the bogie is getting teh framing detail right and if someone is doing 'Kings' for several different periods that has implications, and makes it very easy to get it wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoholic Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I went to Steam at Swindon last Saturday (sorry - I couldn't face the drive up the M5 and the M42 to Coverntry) and looked in vain for any mention of a commisioned King from Hornby. Did I miss it, or were those rumours just ill-informed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted September 15, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 15, 2014 I think there was an assumption by some (myself included) that Steam would announce KGV as a Hornby King, it would certainly have been a good opportunity, that is assuming Hornby will be making a King for Steam, perhaps KGV will just be a Hornby model and not a Steam Model. Steam may be a little reticent given the mistakes and quality of the Star. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I went to Steam at Swindon last Saturday (sorry - I couldn't face the drive up the M5 and the M42 to Coverntry) and looked in vain for any mention of a commisioned King from Hornby. Did I miss it, or were those rumours just ill-informed? I don't think there was a formal announcement but Hornby did this about a week ago, while DJM was pondering details for its models.. http://www.Hornby.com/news/Hornby-confirms-the-king/ Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now