Class 800 - Updates

[Karhedron]

As for driverless trains, if we give the 800's a 40 year life, then who knows? Driverless National Rail trains are clearly a very different thing to the DLR, but driverless cars seem to be doing pretty well so in 40 years I can see it being reality with trains in 40 years.

I suspect driverless trains would be easier than cars for several reasons. Firstly there is no steering to worry about as the points are controlled remotely. Secondly, there are a relatively small number of known routes that would need to be programmed. A driverless car would need to cope with going almost anywhere. Thirdly, there would be a lot less worry about other drivers acting unexpectedly. Driver error accounts for 85% of road accidents and driverless cars will need to account for other drivers' lack of brain cells.

 

More complex than the DLR probably but less than a driverless car I would imagine.

[Southernman46]

First trip to Penzance and return appears to be scheduled now for 22nd June;

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K07052/2017/06/22/advanced

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K07053/2017/06/22/advanced

Ooo - I see an very early morning trip up the valley to Woodborough tomoz - pity the sun will be behind it. Hopefully the Robeston tanks and the Felixstowe liner will not run mega-early and make it a worthwhile excursion.

 

Indeed, the DLR can be driverless because the signalling system completely runs the railway - the trains are almost incidental - take a set of vehicles off a run and the "run" will still carry on stopping at stations and reserving points etc. until it is disabled by the Controller. The PSA's only operate the doors but they are told to close & depart by the signalling system "pinging" the train with a RTD signal - the train will then only move when all doors are closed - it's bit more involved than that - the PSA can also drive the train under instruction from Controllers.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Southernman46

[YesTor]

Crap seating and internal layout, do not make a crap train.

 

I'd imagine that the travelling-on-said-train-every-working-day customer might argue otherwise...

Edited June 22, 2017 by YesTor

[Re6/6]

800003 & 800004 at Totnes this morning.

 

 

 

 

 

The old with the new.

 

And now for something completely different parked at the station!

[ejstubbs]

First trip to Penzance and return appears to be scheduled now for 22nd June;

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K07052/2017/06/22/advanced

 

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K07053/2017/06/22/advanced

 

The down run seemed to be going well until it passed Par.  Anyone know what happened between there and Camborne?

[Siberian Snooper]

I wonder how well it went over the South Devon banks.

[Coryton]

I'd imagine that the travelling-on-one-every-working-day customer might argue otherwise...

 

My first thought was that the interior could be changed much more easily than the performance of the train, so shouldn't be considered a fundamental part of the train.

 

But maybe that's not true, since it seems that the engine ratings can be changed at the click of a mouse....more work to make a harsh interior look welcoming. (I'll reserve judgement on the trains till I've been on one, but the photos I've seen don't look promising...then again I find the FGW refurbished Mk 3's interiors somewhat off-putting).

[ejstubbs]

I wonder how well it went over the South Devon banks.

 

Seems to have kept time pretty well over that stretch.  Then again, I've no idea how challenging the schedule was.

 

On the return journey, left PNZ on time, 23 down by Lostwithiel, made up 22 by Liskeard - somewhat hard to believe for a leg originally timed at 38 minutes!!!

 

I assume these runs have no pax on board.

Edited June 22, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Coryton]

Seems to have kept time pretty well over that stretch.  Then again, I've no idea how challenging the schedule was.

 

On the return journey, left PNZ on time, 23 down by Lostwithiel, made up 22 by Liskeard - somewhat hard to believe for a leg originally timed at 38 minutes!!!

 

I assume these runs have no pax on board.

 

Sandbags?

[David41283]

Seems to have kept time pretty well over that stretch.  Then again, I've no idea how challenging the schedule was.

 

On the return journey, left PNZ on time, 23 down by Lostwithiel, made up 22 by Liskeard - somewhat hard to believe for a leg originally timed at 38 minutes!!!

 

I assume these runs have no pax on board.

 

I had a slight detour on my way to work this morning, via Plymouth Station this morning to see it.

 

It did so well over the Devon Banks I almost missed it arrive! According to RTT it left Newton Abbott 3 mins early. By my watch it was 7 mins early into Plymouth. I don't know if it had a particularly generous path, but it may well be that the fears of being under-powered are premature.

 

I'll add some photos later.

 

David 

[HillsideDepot]

Lots of coverage on NR's Great Western Route Twitter feed.

[Coryton]

It did so well over the Devon Banks I almost missed it arrive! According to RTT it left Newton Abbott 3 mins early. By my watch it was 7 mins early into Plymouth. I don't know if it had a particularly generous path, but it may well be that the fears of being under-powered are premature.

 

 

Somehow I get the idea that if that's true, there will be some disappointed people.

[Captain Kernow]

Lots of coverage on NR's Great Western Route Twitter feed.

That says 'it's been tested to withstand Dawlish'. I wonder how they did that?

[jamie92208]

That says 'it's been tested to withstand Dawlish'. I wonder how they did that?

Lots of Minions with buckets of salt water.

 

Jamie

[Gerald Henriksen]

That says 'it's been tested to withstand Dawlish'. I wonder how they did that?

 

I believe maybe mentioned before, but near the end of this article in the Plymouth Herald it says (Mr. Golton being from GWR):

 

"Mr Golton said Hitachi had built a testing facility where it is "throwing salt water at the trains" to ensure that their braking and electrical systems can cope with stormy conditions along the Dawlish sea wall."

 

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/revealed-the-brand-new-high-speed-trains-coming-to-plymouth/story-30353612-detail/story.html

[Zomboid]

I had a slight detour on my way to work this morning, via Plymouth Station this morning to see it.

 

It did so well over the Devon Banks I almost missed it arrive! According to RTT it left Newton Abbott 3 mins early. By my watch it was 7 mins early into Plymouth. I don't know if it had a particularly generous path, but it may well be that the fears of being under-powered are premature.

 

I'll add some photos later.

 

David

The path in the down direction was about the same as a HST (the 1803 Paddington to Penzance is allowed 41 mins for Newton Abbott to Plymouth, with a stop at Totnes, and the IEP schedule was the same).

I think the under powered accusations at the IEP are more about high speed performance, and west of Exeter line speeds are nothing to write home about.

 

Using the same 1803 from Paddington for comparison, Reading to Exeter (2 stops for both trains, though not the same ones) the IEP was allowed 2h04 (and it took 1h58), and the HST is allowed 1h43.

 

Though unless you know what they were testing and under what conditions, the running times are a bit meaningless.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Zomboid

[D854_Tiger]

Somehow I get the idea that if that's true, there will be some disappointed people.

 

On paper two five car class 800 sets have the same available power as a 2+8 HST therefore, being a much more modern train, you would expect it to cope quite well.

 

A nine car class 800 is not so well blessed, whether or not that translates to a failure to match HST performance, I'm guessing yes, otherwise why the order for the more powerful class 802.

 

However a software change is probably all it takes to turn a class 800 into a class 802 as they have identical engines.

 

As originally conceived the class 800 was never intended to run on diesel power over the core London - Oxford - Bristol - Cardiff 125 mph GW main line, delays to the electrification have changed that requirement.

 

Whether or not that is going to be an issue for matching HST schedules is largely going to depend upon how much electrification is available initially, my guess is that the improved performance under the wires will compensate (or more than compensate) for the slower bits when the train has to run on diesel. 

 

The give away was that the order for class 801 (electric only IEP) was only changed to an order for more class 800, but not class 802, strongly suggesting the 110 mph and less power issue (which in any case only applies to the nine car sets) is not going to be an issue in, at the very least, matching existing schedules.

[D854_Tiger]

Lots of Minions with buckets of salt water.

 

Jamie

   

 

                  .... and by ignoring the five years of deign experience that produced the Voyager in favour of the 150 years of design experience that had produced trains that couldn't be brought to a standstill by a wave

[HillsideDepot]

Just watching this video of the units arriving at Truro and was pleased to note how many seats are grouped around tables throughout the train, certainly a higher percentage than on GWR's current HSTs.

[Reorte]

Just watching this video of the units arriving at Truro and was pleased to note how many seats are grouped around tables throughout the train, certainly a higher percentage than on GWR's current HSTs.

Pleasantly surprised by that, as far as I can tell from the view from the outside they must've made some effort to try to line them up. It'll never be 100% perfect with a mix of airline and tables but it looks like it could be better on that front than a lot of other modern trains.

[The Stationmaster]

The path in the down direction was about the same as a HST (the 1803 Paddington to Penzance is allowed 41 mins for Newton Abbott to Plymouth, with a stop at Totnes, and the IEP schedule was the same).

I think the under powered accusations at the IEP are more about high speed performance, and west of Exeter line speeds are nothing to write home about.

 

Using the same 1803 from Paddington for comparison, Reading to Exeter (2 stops for both trains, though not the same ones) the IEP was allowed 2h04 (and it took 1h58), and the HST is allowed 1h43.

 

Though unless you know what they were testing and under what conditions, the running times are a bit meaningless.

 

It's interesting to look at the times in more detail - although the only method we have is via RTT recording to the nearest 1/4 minute and we don't know what the offsets are so it's not exactly ideal.  Plus there were some rather odd intermediate timings in there to start with.

 

So if you look at the time from Clink Road (RT) to Blatchbridge (2E) it appears to have gained time but in fact on nett running times it actually lost 1 minute, it then dropped 2 minutes on nett times between Witham and Bruton (over Brewham summit) but it was catching a Weymouth bound unit although the distance between them at Cary would have had it running on clear signals.  Further west it rather oddly didn't gain time from Castle Cary to Cogload but that was probably down to 'managing' the time past Cogload.  It gained slightly going up to Whiteball (but you do get a run at it) and lost a minute climbing Dainton and made a small gain climbing to Hemerdon and made up nearly 2 minutes going down the bank towards Tavistock Jcn.  Again climbing on the Cornish side of the Tamar it dropped time, a full 2 minutes on the bank up to Menheniot and Liskeard.  Then ran to time down the descent beyond Liskeard until it was delayed approaching Truro - where it appears to have been incorrectly timed so was presumably given the not unusual hard check (and maybe even a dead stand?) before arriving at Truro 3 late;  not exactly sensible timing for a demonstration run.  Then came the big loss in west Cornwall - due to whatever but possibly signalling or level crossing problems as the return working also suffered considerable delay in that area (although anther train didn't).

 

Further east there was a small loss of time on the climb from Lostwithiel to Liskeard and then a gain dropping down to and over the bridge.  Then a slight gain climbing Hemerdon but a loss climbing to Whiteball.  Interestingly a 3 minute loss from Taunton to Cogload - which might well be down to driving technique and then time dropped to Cary despite the train in front running to time and in fact pulling slightly ahead but no time lost going over the hump of Brewham Bank.  Further time dropped on the long climb to savernake (at which point the booked HST was well ahead but had also dropped time on the climb for some reason.  then beyond Newbury a punctual run.

 

So overall quite interesting and not a bad performance although apart from possible high temperatures there should have been good rail conditions throughout and we don't know the gross load.

 

But, again, this is based on RTT times without knowledge of the offsets which might tell a slightly different story while the time taken to recover from what seems to have been a (in timing terms planned) signal check approaching Truro seems a bit much but we don't know how quick, or not, the Signalman was in clearing the Home Signal

[phil-b259]

Just watching this video of the units arriving at Truro and was pleased to note how many seats are grouped around tables throughout the train, certainly a higher percentage than on GWR's current HSTs.

 

Which HST?

 

IIRC there are three different internal HST configurations employed by GWR to suit the different passenger demographics of its three main routes.

 

(i) a high density set with mostly airline seating and lacking full kitchen car for runs to Bristol and intermediate stations

(ii) a high density layout but with a full restaurant car for South Wales services (that also pick up lots of trade from Bristol Parkway - hence the high density layout)

(iii) a mid density layout with more tables and a full kitchen car for runs into Devon & Cornwall as those services carry a higher proportion of leisure travellers than commuters.

 

Thus the 800 series trains being ordered for West Country services (and which GWR ordered rather than by the mandarins in the DfT) may well follow the trend of their predecessors with more tables etc than the 800 variant ordered for the Bristol runs.

Edited June 22, 2017 by phil-b259

[Ramblin Rich]

There was a brief segment in BBC Spotlight South West with a GW manager saying that there was more leg room and more tables as that was what people wanted. Whether that is just for the GW 'purchased' units remains to be seen. I still hope they have a better ambience than Voyagers...

[YesTor]

Why such a vitriolic tone?

How do you know these trains will be "garbage"?

Hitachi are a large scale train manufacturer and have a long history in train production. They've also been involved in the production of almost all of Japan's high speed Shinkansen train classes, which are regarded as some of the finest trains in the world.

Japanese engineering is generally highly regarded for build quality and reliability, although that in itself is no guarantee that teething problems and minor design issues won't arise. Particularly as most of the bits and pieces that are going into these IET's are sourced and manufactured by UK and mainland European subcontractors.

 

I think that the key problem with new-build trains is that despite all of the supposedly futuristic aircraft technology, space-age aesthetics of the exterior and cutting-edge computer software, the bottom line is that the passenger always ends up gingerly perched, knees jammed in, on what nearly always feels like a very hard plank covered in a bit of cheap foam, not to mention an annoying engine constantly vibrating under your feet/in your ears for the entire duration of the journey.  All-in-all it's far from a pleasant experience.  And ultimately those are the elements that passengers are going to remember most.

Edited June 22, 2017 by YesTor

[HillsideDepot]

Which HST?

 

IIRC there are three different internal HST configurations employed by GWR to suit the different passenger demographics of its three main routes.

 

(i) a high density set with mostly airline seating and lacking full kitchen car for runs to Bristol and intermediate stations

(ii) a high density layout but with a full restaurant car for South Wales services (that also pick up lots of trade from Bristol Parkway - hence the high density layout)

(iii) a mid density layout with more tables and a full kitchen car for runs into Devon & Cornwall as those services carry a higher proportion of leisure travellers than commuters.

 

Thus the 800 series trains being ordered for West Country services (and which GWR ordered rather than by the mandarins in the DfT) may well follow the trend of their predecessors with more tables etc than the 800 variant ordered for the Bristol runs.

Whilst that may be the theory, experience of travelling on GWR HSTs on several Freedom of the South West Rovers is that anything goes. I've certainly done Chippenham - Penzance (via BTM) and back to Taunton (train was then B&H to Paddington) on a high density mini-buffet set. Without taking notice of actual set consists the impression on all routes is of very few tables on HST stock. Maybe I just get unlucky!