Class 800 - Updates

[Ron Ron Ron]

......IMHO these issues really don't put that much vaunted Japanese* design, engineering, manufacturing and quality control in particularly good light......

 

* In this context I mean Hitachi's sites in Japan and in Newton Aycliffe.

 Do bear in mind that apart from the main body shell and a few main structural components, almost everything in these trains ( systems, electronics, engine packs, components,  interior fitments etc, etc,) is sourced from UK and EU manufacturers and assembled at Newton Aycliffe.

 

 

........After all it's only yours and my hard earned tax pounds that are being poured into this.

What tax money is "being poured into this"?

The trains have not been bought.

They have been paid for by an international finance consortium, not the taxpayer.

The leasing costs that the TOCs will incur, will be paid for from fare revenue.

 

 

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[royaloak]

Or did they have to give in to the deplorable British habit of wanting something bespoke rather than the manufacturer's standard designs?

 

Jim

And then once production had started the DaFT changed the specification 27 28 times.

Edited March 16, 2018 by royaloak

[caradoc]

1445 Paddington-Swansea yesterday Thursday 15th March; Guard most apologetic that there were no seat reservations as they were set up for HST whereas the train was 2 x 5-car 800. I alighted at Reading and on departure the rear set (at least) was on diesel instead of electric.

[jonny777]

What I can't understand is that when I passed by North Pole depot earlier this week, there seemed to be lots of GWR liveried 800 units parked in and around the site, but far fewer out on the mainline. 

 

I was surprised that more are not being used for regular services. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by jonny777

[Coryton]

 Do bear in mind that apart from the main body shell and a few main structural components, almost everything in these trains ( systems, electronics, engine packs, components,  interior fitments etc, etc,) is sourced from UK and EU manufacturers and assembled at Newton Aycliffe.

 

 

But Hitachi still have the responsibility for specifying, procuring and integrating all the components so that it all works. 

 

What tax money is "being poured into this"?

The trains have not been bought.

They have been paid for by an international finance consortium, not the taxpayer.

The leasing costs that the TOCs will incur, will be paid for from fare revenue.

 

And the more the trains cost, the less is left over to pay to the government as a premium (or fares go up, or a bit of both).

 

So far as I can see, given the way franchises are set up it is likely to be fare- or taxpayers who suffer from expensive trains not the shareholders of whichever company is running the trains, because the franchise system is designed to keep profit margins low and there isn't the scope to absorb considerably higher costs by reducing profit.

[royaloak]

What I can't understand is that when I passed by North Pole depot earlier this week, there seemed to be lots of GWR liveried 800 units parked in and around the site, but far fewer out on the mainline. 

 

I was surprised that more are not being used for regular services. 

Who is going to drive and guard the trains?

 

They were late being delivered so GWR couldnt train their crews up on them (unless somebody can explain how you train crews up to work a train without actually having a train they can practice on), now they are being delivered faster than GWR are able to train the crews up, GWR dont have an infinite number of crews so they have to balance up the training with running trains.

 

It aint like driving a car, you cant just start it up and then work the rest out as you go along!

Its hardly GWRs fault the trains were delivered later than planned and are now being delivered faster than planned.

[Glorious NSE]

It aint like driving a car, you cant just start it up and then work the rest out as you go along!

Some folk can't even manage that...

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/new-car-destroyed-four-hours-1197837

 

 

[royaloak]

Some folk can't even manage that...

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/new-car-destroyed-four-hours-1197837

 

 

Where is the PMSL smillie when you need it, anyone with more than 2 brain cells knows the cruise control will automatically disconnect when the brake pedal is pressed, if he had read the handbook he would have known that!

[surfsup]

On the trains I have travelled on to/from Bristol, it was because they were not due to stop at Didcot. 

 

Has the Didcot stop been cut out of some longer service schedules because of the increase in 387 services from there?

 

 

I cant answer for any removals of the Didcot stops but most of the 800s I have seen do this are supposed to be stopping there. I'm not sure if it's a problem with the trains TMS after the changeover from Electric to Diesel causing it to reset itself and losing the trains information or not. I was out on a job west of Didcot today and noticed nearly all the 800s continuing with the same problem - running on Diesel under the wires and the side PA Screens either not functioning or still half functioning. 

 

Elsewhere on the net it's being suggested that Hitachi's 385 fleet for ScotRail is also now suffering Software issues delaying their introduction further. Are we pushing ourselves with the amount of technology we're adding to rolling stock these days or has Hitachi woefully underprepared itself and underestimated it's own timescales for introducing a brand new range of Uk Trains? 

[DavidB]

Has the Didcot stop been cut out of some longer service schedules because of the increase in 387 services from there?

Yes, but it’s Oxford Line services rather than Bristol/S Wales services. It appears to be because the occupation of platforms 3,4 and 5 has increased with the need to terminate local trains from both the North and the East following the loss of most through relief line services. So for example my previous regular 17:21 from Reading to Didcot now runs fast to Oxford. It’s been replaced by a 17:05 387 Service that runs non stop, covers the distance in 12 mins and usually has less than 50 people on the 8 cars, because it’s timed too early for most returning commuters.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm left wondering what all those months of testing of the Class 800s actually achieved?

 

I first photographed 800001 at Peterborough on the 9th June 2015 during the very early stages of overnight testing.  Almost three years ago!

800001 5E98 Peterborough 09062015 2 RMweb.jpg

 

Testing was still underway when I photographed the same unit over a year later at Doncaster on 23rd June 2016.

800001 5X08 Doncaster 23062016 - RMweb.jpg

 

I know these units are complicated and I know that their ongoing development has been punctuated by DfT contract variations (numerous variations at that) over the original specification.  But nonetheless, IMHO these issues really don't put that much vaunted Japanese* design, engineering, manufacturing and quality control in particularly good light.  For the avoidance of doubt, I've no doubt that GWR and Network Rail management aren't entirely blameless in all this either.

 

I'd like to think, in view of the reported high leasing cost of the the Class 800s, that suitably robust conversations are taking place across all the stakeholders in this ongoing farce.  But then again I'm probably being naive.  After all it's only yours and my hard earned tax pounds that are being poured into this.   

 

* In this context I mean Hitachi's sites in Japan and in Newton Aycliffe.

 

You can run test programmes and test runs until you're blue in the face but they will never reveal what is going to come up in everyday operation - the only to do that is, yes, everyday operation.  

 

Now there are various ways of tackling the everyday operation aspect and shadow running is one - if resource capacity - and you simply slot in some extra trains in the advertised service, people will use them because they like the novelty of a new train and they want to experience if 'first.  In development terms that will start to reveal any everyday operational and service wrinkles and they can be tackled in isolation and gradually sorted IF you are prepared to allow time for that to happen.  The next, rather more risky, way of doing it is to run one or two diagrams on the existing base timetable but it has the risk if any faults being exposed to a wider audience and it will inevitably need more trained crews than shadow running.  But again it will take time and needs to be allowed to run a successful course before releasing more of the new trains into everyday working.  It is incidentally an approach favoured by SNCF and they reduce the risk by initially running with 100% 'hot standbys', i.e. there is another train ready to be put into each diagram if the normal one hints trouble, after a few weeks SNCF will reduce to 50% hot stand then after another month or so down to 25%.

 

None of this approach seems to be adopted in Britain we tend to go straight from '1,000 miles of trouble free test running' to full passenger operation on a limited number of diagrams then increase the number of diagrams without bothering too much about sorting problems before we introduce even more sets.  it gets the trains into service more quickly but exposes them more to potential public criticism if things go wrong, and it doesn't necessarily allow time to sort faults before you're well on the way to full squadron service.  Chuck in a rolling stock cascade plan riding on the new units and you're possibly deep in the more before you get a chance to draw breath.

[Ron Ron Ron]

John Laing have sold half of their shareholding in Agility Trains West, to insurance and asset management company AXA.

 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/business/single-view/view/john-laing-sells-intercity-express-programme-stake.html

 

 

 

.

[Christopher125]

Good news from Roger Ford's 'Informed Sources' preview

 

However the most encouraging performance was with the Great Western Class 800 Hitachi bi-modes where the number of TINs was almost halved, despite a 40% increase in fleet mileage. Fingers crossed, but the bathtub curve may have begun

Edited March 20, 2018 by Christopher125

[rodent279]

Going back a few posts, is the list of diagrams published on Page 126 of this thread still current, or has it been superseded yet?

Cheers N

[Jaggzuk]

Hitachi's new aggregate train ;-)

 

Load and sound testing seen at York 19th March. All fitted out with seats and tables and lots of bags of stones.  I missed the set number but it could be 800101?

 

With all the load and soft furnishing, it sounded much quieter compared to previous empty shells I had seen at York.  It sounded much quieter on the track too..

 

 

 

 

[nightstar.train]

Can anyone update on the testing up to Inverness? I’ve heard rumours that NR are seriously unimpressed with the IEPs performance on the highland mainline, and even some rumours that VTEC are now looking to retain HSTs, probably with Mk4s so as to meet the disability requirements.

[JeffP]

One would hope that those seats with the bags of stones on will be removed and offered to other operators on ebay, being replaced with brand spankers before the train enters service?

[Ron Ron Ron]

One would hope that those seats with the bags of stones on will be removed and offered to other operators on ebay, being replaced with brand spankers before the train enters service?

 

 

Maybe that's why the seats are hard.

The cushions have been squashed flat by bags of heavy stones.

 

 

 

 

 IMG_2103.jpg

 

Another numpty strikes...

Programme Project ?????

 

 

.

.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[Fat Controller]

The stones are to be used to create 'Zen Gardens' at selected stations, I believe...

[eastwestdivide]

The stones are to be used to create 'Zen Gardens' at selected stations, I believe...

If you look carefully, the bags are labelled up for the destination stations. I can make out Rock Ferry, Stonehaven, Stonehouse, Gravelly Hill, Stone (Staffs), Stone Crossing (Kent), and Aberdeen (The Granite City).

[62613]

If you look carefully, the bags are labelled up for the destination stations. I can make out Rock Ferry, Stonehaven, Stonehouse, Gravelly Hill, Stone (Staffs), Stone Crossing (Kent), and Aberdeen (The Granite City).

Atherstone?

[Ken.W]

Can anyone update on the testing up to Inverness? I’ve heard rumours that NR are seriously unimpressed with the IEPs performance on the highland mainline, and even some rumours that VTEC are now looking to retain HSTs, probably with Mk4s so as to meet the disability requirements.

Basically correct.

From what I've heard so far;

 

NR are so seriously unimpressed with the performance on the HML test run to have said no to them, as they'd cause excessive delay to other services.

 

VTEC have considered retaining all their HST sets, however it seems now to be unfeasable to have them converted to be 2020 compliant in time.

Consideration is also being given, therefore, to the feasabillity of converting Mk4s to work with HST power cars.

They seem to be left not knowing what they're going to be running at present!

Edited March 26, 2018 by Ken.W

[Coryton]

Consideration is also being given, therefore, to the feasabillity of converting Mk4s to work with HST power cars.

 

 

That would be quite amusing given that the 91's started out pulling Mk3s...

 

Another numpty strikes...

Programme Project ?????

.

 

Perhaps whoever wrote that once typed their PIN number into an ATM machine on Mount Fujiyama?

[Titan]

 

Consideration is also being given, therefore, to the feasabillity of converting Mk4s to work with HST power cars.

 

 

I would expect that it would be easier to convert the power cars to work with the mk4s, much as was done before for the 91's but with suitable converters for the three phase ETS to standard ETS - Another box to go in the ex-guards compartment - if there is any space left? In fact with the short formations proposed, would one power car and a DVT suffice?

Edited March 26, 2018 by Titan

[Legend]

There's already a plan to convert HST Power Cars to run with Mk4s on the Midland Mainline as Mk3s will not be compliant and its too late to order new stock for 2020. So Virgin could utilise this experience for sets for Inverness . I'd hope they could still convert Mk3s in the same way as the ScotRail ones .

 

With VTEC in trouble financially ,and not achieving passenger numbers, might there be reluctance to go to the extra expense . They had originally planned to keep some Class 91s on short rakes of Mk4s, I don't know if they are still going ahead with that

Edited March 26, 2018 by Legend